global events, one cannot help but be in all of those who find strength to keep fighting for unimaginable darkness. people in florida, we're going to have a day night. the shoe was over all fine in light as the producers had promised with 3 funny women moving things along. it was a night, hollywood shines once more and where drama was in spades. heidi jo, castro, al jazeera los angeles. ah, this is al jazeera and these are the top stories. now. ukrainian military officials say they've reclaimed a pin from russian forces the city northwest of cuba as seen, heavy fighting since russia began. it's pushed towards the capital last month. oh, good point. if you store hood your printer, the occupiers are pushed away from air pin and key, but it's still too early to talk about safety in this part of our region fighting continues, russian troops hold the north of the key region and they have resources and

manpower. they are trying to rebuild destroy units. the level of 90 percent of losses is none argument for them to stop. at least 5000 civilians have been killed in mary paul since rushes invasion began. that's according to the cities mer also says up to 200000 people, remain trapped in the besieged city. a fresh round of talks between russia and ukraine are due to begin in turkey. negotiators from both countries will meet face to face in istanbul on tuesday. turkish president recept tire. edwin says there has been progress between the 2 sides. each ala a dish is hopefully russian and ukrainian delegates who are leading talks on c. spy, and piece talks will, may took in tomorrow and stand bull. we will get together with delegates and make them briefly ahead of the meeting. i can say that the telephone traffic we're carrying out with mr. payton and mr. zelinski as advancing on a positive direction. wall street journal is reporting that 3 people who are talks

between ukraine and russia earlier this month may have been poisoned after meeting and give russian oligarch amount of rich and to ukrainian negotiators. reportedly suffered symptoms consistent with chemical agents investigated website bearing cats . as it has confirmed, the 3 delegates illness they've since recovered. the supreme court in honduras has authorized the extradition of a former president, one orlando hernandez to the united states. now this is wanted by us, prosecutors on drugs and firearms charges. he denies the accusations. impeachment proceedings have begun against the peruse president pedro castillo. he appeared before congress in the capital lima to face allegations of corruption. those are the headlines and use continues. herron al jazeera, after inside story, me

and poland has received more refugees from ukraine than any other country. moscow has warned his government to stay out of the war. there is the risk of a spillover. and if so, what will be the fool out? this is inside story. ah hello, welcome to the program i'm hasn't seek russia's invasion of ukraine has had a direct impact on neighboring countries, most of whom are members of nato. poland has become vital in the western effort to defend ukraine with some of the fighting getting close to its border. last week,

russian forces targeted the western ukrainian city of the wave near the polish border. just as the u. s. president was visiting poland and according to ukraine's military, 3 weeks after the war began, a rushing run flew over poland before entering ukrainian space where it was shot down situation as force nato to decide on how to respond to incidents like this inside the borders of its members, states, us president joe biden visited ukrainian refugees, and nato troops in the polish capital war. so on saturday, during a speech to a large crowd, he warned russia against violating nato territory. don't even think about, we're not one single inch of nato territory. we have the sacred obligation we have a set your application of article 5 to defend each and every age. no territory. a

poland has had an important role since the conflict began last month, they went from rejecting migrants from the middle east to opening its stores. to those from ukraine hosting more than 2000000 people, the largest group of ukrainian refugees in europe, holland house, nato battle groups to deter russia and reinforce other members when needed. and along with romania, it's also a gateway for nato arm supplies heading to ukraine. hundreds of thing, missiles, javelin, anti tank weapons, and other munitions had passed through his borders. ah, well let's bring in august. now talk more about this in warsaw. re watching. he is a senior fellow at the center for european policy analysis and a former military attack at the u. s. embassy in warsaw in brussels. robert shell, a senior fellow at the casino, pulaski foundation in poland, and a former polish diplomat and nato official. and joining us from oxford in england,

samuel romney and associate fellow at the royal united services institute. good to have your with us. so right. watching, if i could start, what do you see you are in war? so what, what, what's the mood in the country right now? what would be the significant role that poland now finds itself in here? well, the start off with general, the bullish population has done a remarkable job in the government, in the hosting literally now millions. so we're seeing more people migrating or, or refugees are in the ball. and then we've seen refugee flows in this short span of time since we're or to i think it's an important point. i like you mentioned the migraines on the bell rouge ordered. this is all part of the full operation that initiated last summer, that hybrid warfare attack against the bully order. those were migrants being used

as against a stabilizing the border. and then also i military force are so that they can concentrate focus on their irish overall. generally the bulls are very, very ukrainian brother. it's a see this existential crisis for them, or ukraine as an existential crisis. or, oh, should they lose? and rochelle, how do you see poland role in all of this, particularly when you remember that before this conflict started, poland has had the reputation of being kind of the bad boys of europe up to then with lot of criticism about their moves, the inside poem that was seen as trampling on the judiciary on independent media and, and sliding, backsliding over democratic norms. and yet now it is a very important player in all of this. well, i mean, you know, there are,

of course nobody's perfect and now very seizures which, which i'm, frankly neat. as you mentioned, there were dispute that the part of the government has had, for instance, where, you know, institutions but, you know, and poland has a phrase actually spending more time. also getting concerned that you know, polish political is quite polarized. but having said of it, there is a very strong degree of unity on this issue is really bi partisan. there's not that much difference, frankly, there's debate. no, it's, it's about like the tactics is about the, the details of response. but, you know, colon knows the french and poland has been among those countries who have been providing a very realistic analysis of the situation. it has not always been heard sufficiently, you know, strongly, so to speak,

in other international institutions. so, but it's not about being vindicated. vindicated by the analysis. the key issues like you mentioned, at the beginning, apollo is actually the key country in terms of the handling of the, of the refugee, which is, you know, crisis which i think, you know, calls every rush to hell, the gradients. and so that's one miscalculation of protein, but also on the need is the pro plans state, and it's not only hosting you know, allied troops now it's about $10000.00 i truce predominately american, but not only and providing of course, the vital hop facility for, for the essential defense assistance, the crate, but actually poland is also doing a lot when it comes to you know, increasing for example, defense expenditure, you know, and i think the necessary legislation. so in other words, is, you know,

taking not only this crisis very seriously, but it's, it's responding so in a way which, which frankly, you know, it would be good if you were copied by, by more conscious being western europe. so i think that is perhaps one of the key reasons why it president biden came straight from brussels meeting or later you and you 7 to 2, proponents not on a 2 or so, but also to reach a u. s. troops in russia. and samuel romney, um, if we could talk about the did the security aspect to this. so we mentioned on the top there the risk of a spill over if this ah escalates into something beyond ukraine's borders. if that does happen, poland is likely to be very much in the eye of that storm. well, i think that there's certainly a grave risk of an accidental le escalation that drags poland into of a broader sense of conflict. because even though russia claims that his pivoted is military operation towards focusing on the liberation of don bass as the calls it

said moving towards easton, ukraine. we've seen a continuation of strikes in western new grand strikes on oil depots, communications towers, as 300 ab air defense systems and factory emissions. factories inside levine and even as well as looks than one of those strikes recently had between 10 kilometers the polish border. who was not a conceivable that could be an accidental strike that brings poland into it. they've already had an errand, missiles drag that hit a target ship on the 1st day of the war. so that kind of accident is possible in terms of a deliberate russian attack on poland. either that's quite remote, i think in terms of risk, the countries that are most at risk or the neutral both. so we say it's ga, moldova, probably followed by a stony ab lithuania and deb bosnia bay because the russians are threatened there and then pull and being further removed from that array will change. one thing you notice about about poland approach to all of this as well. in contrast, with,

with some of its european, a nato upon is, is that they've taken much more of a hard line approach to russia than some of their allies. they've wanted more forceful sanctions. they've wanted to know more in terms of defensive assistance to, to the ukrainian forces, but they've been, they've been over ruled on that up to now, what do you make of that? well, i mean, this is our sort of boyish history. there's a long, problematic history in this region and it, you're colluding with the germans in world war 2. what the russians did i own for a 123 years. those think those are long memories and polls never, ever, even with the nato, russia bounding act in 1997 fully bought into the idea that russia were become a democracy. and as robert pointed out, those threat assessments that. busy old baltic states and romanians, for example, were pushing and call the russ

a teacher to indicate a polish focus on defense preparedness. as robert wanted out, not only is 3 percent defense spending is also announced as far as nato g. p. spending that was phone number to united states is the only other hour that will be spending more on defense on has pledge to increase their military size or partially a 140000 territorial and active today to almost doubling or more 300000 troops. totally at the end of the day, that only is focused on a big modernization program that predates this latest attack altered very sank one room or 20081 of the russians embedded oregon. so that take this very seriously and they're very disappointed. all these years, your dance mostly

a different view. a good part if there could be said any good art is the west. europeans are waking up in the german starting up there and spending change this modernizing. they're both very and being a more willing and able facilitator of defense on nato's eastern place. so those are all the things that it's coming at a very late date and, and same thing for us. a been said to the ukraine now as far as the big initiatives are the 3 that all to really push and unfortunately not occur. one is there maybe 29 transfer. very disappointing. how that work out from all into the 2nd is the no fly zone. all is a big supporter that and then also a round on want nieto bill is considered to protect humanitarian orders, round up keeping probably more like making mention. so all those are truong initiatives. are you brain?

mama, rochelle, what do you make a, did the relationship between the you as a whole and poland right now, given that they become a kind of an indispensable partner in all of this willis, new found favor kind of emboldened the government in warsaw now. well, you know, it never stops overseas, so there are some issues, but i think they kind of, you know, hopefully they sort of part to be dealt. secondly, the important thing is, you know, is that important? there is a very, very strong support. the european union and coordinator probably, you know, gathers a higher, higher figures when it comes to opinion polls. but is it fair to say that, you know, you are, can you situation has providence rhode as well? i mean, there's been a lot a lot, i should not just, you know, talk, it used to be the case, you know, the famous, you know, expressing concerns,

et cetera. you is really key player when it comes to sanctions. and, you know, at the moment i would say that you institutions have really been been quite exemplary in terms of, you know, pushing forward. the problem is that, of course, you need all the capitals to line up. and at the moment, poland is, is very strongly. he's not alone or that, you know, are going for going for where it really the credit regime, which is essentially the gas and oil experts. that is again see holland well has done a bit more homework. i mean, they did use the rate is that by the year, you know, i, the end of the c po, column would be totally independent brush because it's taken set. so actually invest in, for instance, liquefied gas and things of that nature alternative route. so of course, some other countries in europe are slightly less prepared, but nevertheless, i think that there is a gathering of mental it's also, you know, you know,

a certain kind of political example, or we just mentioned the fact that no matter, i know that it's been some critical or even some sniping remarks from, from the sidelines, but the koreans appreciate and the fact that parents, we believe, actually in having, you know, 3 prime ministers from college, against the mean traveling to t f. and meet with president laskey, which was, you know, the humming visit of that level to happen. so i think, you know, and it's kind of showing away. but yes, i mean, some issues related to what you mentioned that question out there. you know, on the judicial system they will need to be kind of, you know, discuss further. but at the moment than be important thing is that there is unity is ations. and then there is a determination to actually press or had any post such high on the, on the regime in russia that he will reconsider what he's doing right now. but of course,

you know. ready why needs to support the ukrainian sci fi and that's also something that was so very strongly being for so yes, i mean it's, you know, the crisis brings out the best one could say in, in, in those who care about security and support for those victims of a rich, let's pick on pick up on some of that with samuel romney and i want to ask you, at some stage, when your client is no longer dominating the headlines, if there's a negotiated piece or the war becomes one of the one of attrition. and just falls out of the spotlight the, the underlying issues. the rule of law dispute with poland with the are not going to go away. are they, i mean, those issues are going to have to be addressed your work certainly. i mean, i think that poland is certainly used in leverage this crisis to be a vanguard in terms of dealing with, with russia. and that's been

a very positive thing. i've been, poland has been able to actually steer an influence. you policy in the direction of energy like as it was, one of the most depending countries on call me for my shop is 70 percent and it was meeting early ban on that that helped. busy still more european countries were least discussing, the energy embargo, we've seen polar data lead on and on. a variety of other issues are be keeping you arms transfers so that leaders to that rule of poland as well as a leader and outlier. it's quite interesting. i think it's something that will kind of continue to persist even after this crisis. because the rule of lies, you won't be going away up re what, what do you, what do you make a, that's a dynamic as a kind of a push pull, a thing going on here between poland and his dealings with the other european partners. you know, i would say 2 things at this point. one is if you try to understand the, the position of the current government of poland,

it's 2 sides of the story to the government of poland sees their reformation or their reforms in the court system. previously they try to do some things with the media and so forth. in other areas that they see that is very domain to deal with. so are you and also by extension the united states is these are things that are domestic issues that we want change or, or are or things that were not reformed during the communist army wanna. busy reform them, so i think there's 2 sides of the story. it's not all about what you read in the west. it in my view that all one is somehow an autocratic or almost autocratic state, which i think totally over blows was the reality is on the ground here. so. so that's one. the other is the u. s. ambassador, relatively new sound as being marked in ski, has made it clear over and over in washington, and then here since he's arrived,

know those issues or issues. he wants to work on it and deal with with the polls. nothing there is going to be no daylight in between on security defense issues in the mission and right. so those issues are not going to play a role or a primary role in any of the discussions going on with united states. and on fact, if anything, things are speeding up on security, defense chars, weapons transferred, they're all in and transferred from poland to ukraine. rubbish out. what do you see as the main security issues for poland in this, in this going forward in terms of its defensive readiness? should, should this conflict escalate? well, i mean, 1st of all, one needs to keep one's cool. so we know we can basically allow ourselves to be kind of intimidated by, you know, you know, relatively skilful. although by now i think, you know,

the methods are known. everybody, you know, narrative accredited because that's, that's basically what i'm trying to do. and, you know, we've seen some direct verbal. there's information attacks and polar article by the former president amid get it. now the clothes are not easily scared. so i think, you know, we, you know, we'll, we'll, we'll keep that cool. but of course, there are various issues related to the way that russia is combating, is more in ukraine, which is not really a winnie, the new cranium, proven to be in an open bottle, much more successful in the russian army. i mean, the myth of the russian army, if successful and efficient is gone. but having said that, russia shown itself to be once again, be totally unconcerned about human lives. the use of totally disproportionate force and basically, you know, attack on, on the civilians. so that is something which, you know, the poles and an hour later made members have to take very seriously hands that me, i think more stress on the kind of, you know, protection against me,

sounds and so on. and any attack, always, no rush on nato countries would be so excited for russia. but, you know, we don't want to see even one in shop, for instance, post i retreat to be destroyed by the madman in the criminal. so i think there is not a concern that there was work going on right now to configure nato to be even more, you know, directly kind of protecting the defensive lines of not just poland, but the baltic states and also helping other countries that were mentioned in the region such as, for instance, you know, georgia also in the book, but who knows, you know, i, so it's a, it's a kind of movie, movie facet effort. but, you know, it just shows that the anniversary of major membership, which we kind of celebrated recently has been one of the, you know, you know, joining nato has been one of the best thing that happened to poland because it's a completely different ball game. when you are, you know, to get a ride,

a train tonight, i said, we know that we will win, but you have to be prepared for that expected because that's the kind of model of around the, off of the, of the russian, the kremlin were g, samuel romney. how do you see paula's role in this the, the longer this goes on? well, i see poland playing a increasingly decisive raul bulls in terms of bringing european countries together by a trilateral frameworks. i think the polish check republics lenient framework majority produced. a 10 point plan is one positive step. another is obviously the british polish ukrainian platform has also been created. that's another positive step. and given the fact that poland and britain are both a vital guy contributors to army ukraine, britain with the movement of n l a. w is another anti tank weapons especially and training. busy pend, acting, is using his borders as a conduit for it. those trilateral frameworks, we very important for polish influence going forward in terms of policy that pull until we bring forward. there are several that i think that they'll be really trying to advance with particular vigor. one will probably be cutting the ab

russian banks off the remaining ones on from swift ads already support for that. inside the united states. we're seeing gym bridge, for example, talking about secondary sanctions on russian banks, u. s. poll agglomeration and the financial punishment of russia is somebody who should watch for paula might also be pushing for i switzerland and any remaining european countries that are on the fence of, of banning artie and spot neck to make that kind of step as well as granting russians who are defecting and dissidence asylum, brickley those from the military and at pushing towards more comprehensive and sweeping sanctions. an individual russians like the gillian russians who are supportive of the united russia party and some other ventures like that could be things that poland will be lobbying the you to do so play a very active role in the sanctions regime and also the horn nation, much races as you cran. moving forward. all right, well i guess i could send back to you on this. um, what's probably going to be the last word? there's been talk for several years of permanently assigning us and nato forces more to poland. do you think that's a real possibility now?

yes, i do. and i think the interesting is in the last couple years is just like a threat assessment, where the polls have been maligned a little bit by some of the west. are you. it was, we can get along on the polls. we're always are clear eyed about this and then when the propose this permanent basing of american forces specifically and or, you know, forces on the eastern flying. joe came out about for trump and it was going to be made and everybody focus. and you know, wrapping up when about fortran. the bottom line is it was a great initiative. i went through a 2 different paper to sign an agreement with united states on a lot of new initiatives, not permanent. asia are being much closer because only that ground work and i think the u. s. and you know, your area so very intimating this every day now is much closer to considering

permanent ac u. s. forces and other allies all along the eastern flight. i think it will become a reality. all right, on that we're going to have to leave it. thanks very much to all 3 of you. right. well check robert shell and samuel romney, thanks so much for being on inside story. and thank you as always for watching them and we can see the program again, any time by visiting our website as a little com. and for further discussion, you can go to our facebook page at facebook dot com, forward slash ha inside story. you can also join the conversation on twitter handle is at a j inside story for me has him seek and the whole team here. and uh huh. bye. for now, i lose

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put prophets before people. and it won't cost time of pundents coming soon on. i'll just ah, i'm carry johnston in doha. the top stories now announces air ukrainian military officials say they've reclaimed at a pin from russian forces. the city north west of kia has seen heavy fighting since russia began. it's pushed towards the capital last month. oh, but if you store who, ged your opinion, the occupiers are pushed away from air pin and key. but it's still too early to talk about safety in this part of our region. fighting continues, russian troops hold the north of the key region and they have resources and manpower.