decided to return them appears to have looked after them with care, a police investigation into the disappearance of the note books worth many millions of dollars is ongoing. the mystery of darwin's diaries is anything but an open and shut case. leave barker al jazeera. ah, look at the main developments following the sour ukraine's president has told the united nations security council, the body should expel russia or dissolve itself altogether, nodded me as lansky was demanding accountability for russia's alleged war crimes in his country. he says the world is yet to learn the full truth. and the massacre and butcher is only one example of what russian troops have been doing since the war started $41.00 days ago. it or i did with la marie, we need decisions from the security council for peace in ukraine. if you don't know

how to implement this, you can do 2 things. either remove russia from the council, so cannot block decisions about its own war. the other option is to reform to secure, to cancel, to work for peace. if there isn't an alternative, then we should disorder seeker to counsel altogether. but russia's ambassador to the u. n. accused member states of spreading lies about his country's military saline avenger, denied accusations of war crimes and ukraine, and repeated claims that bodies on the streets of butcher were not there when russian forces left the town. switzer, lots is. do we need to cut out the malignant nazi tumor that is consuming ukraine and would in time begin to consume russia? and we will achieve that goal? i hope sooner rather than later because there is no other outcome. we are not shooting against civilian targets in order to save as many civilians as possible this precisely why we are not advancing as fast as many expected day. we're not

acting like americans and their allies in iraq and syria when raising entire cities to the ground. they had no pity for them, but we felt great pity because these are people who are close to us. but new satellite images taken of boot shad 2 weeks before russians left the area seems to show the reverse of what we're hearing as civilians were killed while under that control. that's the suggestion. several bodies can be seen on march 19th. russian forces withdrew at the end of the month of march. and they've also been war allegations and pitches emerging from the northern ukrainian town of but at the anchor in which there are dozens of destroyed buildings. the cranium, prosecutor general, said it had the most victims of any of the towns in the key of province. it had been recaptured from the russians that no specific figures were provided are more coverage of all of that. a bit later on the stream is the program coming out next day with al jazeera. ah,

i a, i manage have a dean filling in for phemie. okay. and you're in the stream today, an american basketball superstar detained in russia. we'll look at the case of brittany griner and a growing trend of hostage diplomacy in as the war and ukraine continued to strain relations between the u. s. and brush others growing concerned over the detention of w and b, a star, brittany griner as well as other us citizens detained in russia. griner a to time olympic gold medalist who also plays in

a russian league was arrested in february after authorities allegedly found cannabis oil in her luggage. she could be facing up to 10 years in prison. but as greiner situation, really a hostage taking by russia and house should such cases be handled. let's meet our guests today. ok, let's start with you. jason. please introduce yourself to our international audience. i'm jason resign. i'm a global opinions writer for the washington post, and i am the host of the spotify original podcast. 544 days, which is about my time as a hostage, being held in iran by the iranian regime. when i was the bureau chief for the washington post and which i should say has been nominated for a website and you should definitely check out dave, please share with our audience. now while you're here and what you do. well, i'm here because you asked me, which was awesome of you. so thank you. my name is dave zire in. i'm the sports editor at the nation magazine. i'm the host of the sports podcast and i've written

11 books about the politics of sports. the most recent one is called the cabinet effect taking a ne, changing the world. thank you, dave. and last, but definitely not least, danny, could you share with our audience while you're here? what you do? thanks for having me. my name's danny gilbert. i'm an assistant professor as military and strategic said he's at the u. s. air force academy and a non resident fellow with the modern institute at west point. and i'm here because all of my research is about kidnapping by armed groups and hostage taking i states . yes, and we're definitely hoping to discuss that and now you know the differences there and the implications of course, jason, let's get straight to it. i mean, you know, as you said, you were detained for 544 days, wrongfully detained, and imprisoned in iran, in your mind, in this case, is there any doubt that this is a hostage solution? thank you for having me on i'm and for shining light on this issue. there are obviously a lot of things that we don't know about the brittany griner case,

but from my point of view, as someone who has not only experienced one of these hostage takings by a government myself, but also been reporting on them for the last 5 years. there are a lot of red flags here. brittany griner was arrested in february. that arrest was not announced until sanctions were starting to mount up on russia over there in face invasion of ukraine. the russian government announced her arrest through their propaganda networks, publishing a mug shot of her, and for many weeks they denied her counselor access. these are all red flags, not by my standards, but by the standards of, of the state department. and so it whether or not she's been classified as a wrongful detainee or a state hostage, as i would say. so the, the factors are in place that you very well could be. yeah. and obviously,

you know, we've, we've seen the russian government say no, we didn't deny her access. you know, the counselor just didn't want to meet with her. i mean, we've seen this kind of play out already as if it were that sort of a situation. dave, in the u. s. state department and private attorneys have called for no international abroad. really silence on this issue. you know, i'm wondering if being silent is effective. well, it's clearly not effective, given that brittany griner face is 10 years behind bars and 5 years of at a labor camp. so that makes us that should make us all will be willing to challenge the state department line that we should all be silent right now. at my end of the world, i just feel like the strategy has been really wrong. and i mean in the sports community, i mean there are 2 wings of the sports community right now in terms of brittany greiner. both of whom i think are, are failing brittany griner and failing all of us. first there's the mainstream sports media community that's just ignoring this. i mean, tom brady was behind bars in russia, there would be

a daily vigil on sports radio. there would be a daily vigil on yes, p n would be talked about all the time. it would be an international uproar. and yet, here's brittany griner, a black l g b t q woman who is the most recognizable basketball star, i would argue on the face of the earth. but it's like they don't have a language. the disrespect for women's sports is so ingrained in sports media and racism, sexism, homophobia. there's so much of that that it's almost like, there's no language. even discuss brittany greiner then you have the community of the n, b a and the w. n. b a who seemed to be following the state department dictates to just be silent. and yes i have, i have real doubts if, if not raising up her name is an effective way to actually raise attention to this and bring her home. i want to just jump in one more thing. i think that this idea that this can be handled quietly with such a public well known figure as they've pointed out, it's impossible, right? all you have to do is go on change dot org and see that there is a,

a petition to free brittany griner signed by tens of thousands of people. right. my family put one of those up a while. i was in prison, half a 1000000 people signed it over a period of many months. this is not a secret, right? this is something that is happening out in the open. you're the u. s. government. the w. n. b, a britain, grantor's family decided not to talk about it. russian government made a decision to put this out in the world right. once that she needs out of bottle, you can't put it back in an even if maybe the ukraine war in the invasion by russia is a distraction or is, you know, maybe somehow overstep shadowing her situation. maybe there aren't separate. i mean, it does beg the question, danny, i'm curious, hearing jason's comments there, why will you know, or why are they continuing to be silent and advocate for silence? what are your thoughts on that? so i think it's an excellent question and i'm really enjoying this conversation. so before i am very, just want to say, even though i work for the us government, i'm not here today speaking on the us government. so one of the things that i've

learned from spending a lot of time talking to former kidnappers is that when they think that the person they're holding is more valuable, that raises the stake. that makes them ask for more demand, more confessions to get the person home. and so a theory, it's fear that we can have about making the case of britney griner, even more public. if there were people out in the street. if there was more media attention, all of those things that we're talking about here today, it could actually make it harder to get her home. one of the reasons, but i think it is important to raise the stakes and have a blessed city about her case, right? it's about a different audience. it's not about the audience of the russian government. it's not about changing vladimir putin mind publicity, actually through the case to convince the u. s. government that it can't let us on this case. and if we think about publicity in that way, i could go in and i got that, and i'd also like to play for an audience and

a little bit, some of her teammates, reaction not to me, i should say, colleagues in the w n. b, how they're reacting and what they really kind of different target. i knew where she was for several weeks, right? it just hasn't worked. and when you consider the situation between russia and the united states right now, in the absence of what, which i assume of given other w and be a star speaking out finally about why she's been silent and why others like her have, let's take a listen. what we've, we're told, well that's the feelings of it. i mean, you want to do more and you think, should we all use our social media platform and, and get behind it right. or not like nobody really. this is the 1st time we're in a situation. you don't know what to do. danny, i see. i see that you're nodding as you're listening to lisa there. i mean, it seems odd that diplomats from the u. s. have yet to put griner in that category of american travelers who were wrongfully detained, which would free up or at least allow a more kind of scrutiny and additional attention from the government to kind of

solve this. that, with the silence, it does seem to suggest that may be the silence is actually increasing the likelihood that she's gonna, you know, stay in brushing jail or even worse. what does it mean to publicize this case? would, would you advocate for more people to speak out, including her teammates? so at the moment i would say, and one of the things that we could be advocating for is for the case to be transferred from one corner of the state department to another. ok. so, so far a lot of the press that i have seen talks about consular affairs and covering her case. and the point of consular affairs is to visit her in prison to make sure she's getting. i know that her rights are being respected and that she's able to have those visits. counselor affairs is not working to get people out of prison. americans are arrested abroad all the time. and in lots of those cases, you know, we're not trying to negotiate for their release or to pressure at them to come home

in any sort of way. but there is an office at the state department, the special presidential envoy for hostage affairs, what's known as the b ha. and it may be hard takes on a case. it means it's elevated for a different level means you're actually working in some respect and to try to get that person just done. just to clarify for audience that has yet to happen in this case. um whether, whether that does happen or not. it is interesting to note that there have been people including former secretary of state, hillary clinton, tweeting about this case. we've seen tim cane a senior democrat and sen say that he believes russia is actually using a brittany griner as a bargaining chip, which would indicate that it's a hostage crisis of sorts, or at least lend some credibility there. i'm curious, dave, listening to lisa listening to what danny said and looking at what the w and bay has said in this statement. i want to share it with you. in close collaboration with us, government agencies, elected officials,

individuals and organizations with expertise in these matters. and brittany grinders representatives and family, we continue to work diligently to get her safely home to the united states. i hate to put it so bluntly but, but dave, is there proof or is there hard, factual evidence that that's in fact happening that the government is doing that? i mean, perhaps we assume it, this is a question of assumptions at this point, not a question of what we actually know to be true. and like i said before, if you're the united states government and you're dealing with russia and ukraine, i don't know where brittany griner is on their list of priorities, but i can't imagine it's very high and we need to change that. we need to change. so i thought it was so interesting that at the oscars, i mean there were things that happened at the oscars other than the thing we're not going to talk about. right. but there was an amazing short film, one of called the queen of basketball, and the director ben proud foot when he won the award. what he said was so

interesting, he didn't say vladimir putin please bring brittany griner home. he said, president bible, please act to bring britain liner home, and i think that's where our focus needs to be. no one's asking the w m b a to occupy the state department. all i want to see is not this kind of impose silence. i've spoken to people in the w n b, right, well are bursting to want to say something about this, but they're so scared and they show if they should get up and say something that the fact of the matter is, i wanna piggyback off what you, what both danny and dave said, you know, there is this notion as danny mentioned that, you know, if we talk about publicly, it raises the stakes. right? but that's and that, that more has to do with, with, with criminal gangs and terrorist organizations, governments know what they're trying to get when they taken hostage sitting here quietly about it ensures that we're not forcing the u. s. government to do their job, run of their jobs is to protect the rights of citizens while they are abroad. and

dave, is it 100 percent? right? the united states president, in this case, joe biden is the person who's ultimately going to the side over the face of a britney griner and dozens of other americans who are being held right now. because it requires kind of a presidential sign off that right. you know what we are going to do whatever deal, however unsavoury at my bill to re this person. right. right. right. and you know, on that know, you mentioned that there are more americans being taken hostage by sort of state governments. i think it's 19 publicly known us nationals being held by militant or criminal groups. but when it comes to the states, it's about $43.00 being wrong, wrongfully detained. and you know, that's, that's quite a disparity before we can kind of break that down a little bit. i do wanna take as, you know, a quick moment and just kind of there been comments that say in the youtube chat and people are asking, why are they got, why did she go to a country that your country has beef with, you know,

what was brittany doing in russia and i, i think these are important questions are perhaps people don't know that roughly half of all w and b, a players actually play overseas an autocratic countries. and a lot of it has to do with how they're treated, what their paid. i mean 5 to 8 times as much their salaries in the states. a dave, what can you share with us about this point? why can share the difference between making 60 grand a year and making an extra $1000000.00 a year? because in other countries, and some of them are autocratic countries like russia, they tend to treat women's basketball players a great deal better than we do in the united states where the w n. b, a is a very salary kept and low salary leak relative to the revenue that they produce. and so for women's basketball players going overseas is not some option. it's not, you know, of a fun way to see the world after the w. n. b a season. i mean it's a question of making as much money as they can before their career inevitably ends probably in their late twenties or early thirties. so that's what brittany griner

was doing over there. she was a champion basketball player in russia, and that's the other part of this. like the idea that airport security didn't know exactly who she was when they approached her is another part of this story that we have to say. it just beggars believe that their story that a dog smelled has she showed up in her bag and that's how we've gotten down this road. it's like, come on, please don't spit in my face and tell me it's raining. danny, you know, when you actually go ahead, go ahead. yeah, i was just going to say that there's actually 3 americans currently being detained in russia. they're all wheel and, and trevor read has been held for several years. and my understanding is that they were erected shortly after the united states arrested to russian intelligent asian . and so you can see with those cases that it is almost a very clear tit for tat that russia is holding these americans because they want to get these 2 agents help with britney grinder case. i mean, in some senses from russia's perspective,

it may be irrelevant whether or not she had any illicit substances in her bag or not. because they are going to be acting as if she does. they are going to be acting as if this is a legitimate arrest, even the entire purpose is to hold her hostage and to use her for foreign policy leverage as part of their war in ukraine. and so we can see that she is, you know, this is a really difficult moment for an american, for a famous american or a black l, g b, t, q, american, to be imprisoned in a country like russia. and frankly, puts the united states government in a really difficult position because traditionally to get the hostages home and confessions have to be made. and that means pitting foreign policy interests of the united states against this interest in protecting american citizens and doing whatever we have to do right to get them released, which is precisely why this issue is such an important one. them in this, the disparity in the number of state hostages compared to people being held by

criminal enters organizations, really stuck out to my colleagues and i had to wash and postpone. we reported that back in november and this is a problem that's getting worse and worse and worse, it's getting worse because governments can get away with it, right? there are no preventative measures. i mean, what can the u. s. or other, worse of all we have to, you know, come out forcefully and call it what it is right in, in the, to other cases that the denny had spoke about. trevor read and paul whelan, you know, when you hear the term wrongful detainee, it's kind of confusing, right? these are 2 americans, 2 veterans, 2 citizens who lawfully went to russia, who were being held hostage on trumped up charges as political leverage against united states of america. and brittany greiner may very well be in the exact same position one i think, for context, for those who might not know. it's important to mention the timing that you know, she was taken into custody in russia, as russia was preparing to invade ukraine. this was news, things may, i'm not trying to conflate them, but they didn't happen in a vacuum and you know,

she's continuing to be held and the mug shot was released and you know, the war is continuing and the sanctions are being placed on the russian. oligarchs, one of whom actually owns the team that she plays for their so, you know, all the while she's being denied due process, right? not forget about them. right. and i mentioned these, these fact sort of actually, you know, because this isn't, of course we're talking about brittany today, but it's not just about her. and jason, i want to share with our audience, you know, foreign governments, as we said, are the predominant hostage takers of us nationals now around the growth globe. and in your, in a short doc, bring them home, which you were an executive producer on. i believe i'm, it really tells the story of, of yet another american emoji who has been detained in an iranian prison for, i believe, more than 3 years. i want to just listen to what m a my wife has to say will come back to him. okay, doug, would you believe that then it was wonderful to be able to hear his voice. i think you be stating that i want to hang on to the day here when i speak to him,

and then we hang up and then we never know when he's been next time. we're going to get to hear his voice again, bye bye for 2. and a half years i was we as a family, have decided to talk about a mod case because, well, guess what? this didn't work. you know, danny, i mean, this didn't work this, that gesture that she did, they're pretty powerful and of itself. and when, when you see that, what, what can we, what can we learn from that and what, what kind of instruction can you give us on,

on how to handle brittany moving forward? i think that that footage is so moving, jason and, and it's impossible to imagine what it's like for me to be in the shoes of the family when they're left. one is is being held. i think that the advocacy that we can be doing toward the u. s. government, encouraging them to stay focused on these cases is incredibly important. i think there's a foot prior to that, which is that one of the things that president trump really became known for was advertising how much he was focusing on these cases. can have the effect of really putting a target on american back around the world. and i think one of the other things that the publicity can really do is it prevents the hostage taker from having an easy way out. it prevents them from meeting face if it really looks like it's a hostage taking instead of their finding some other way around k, right? and then if i may very quickly and we'll come try to get you jason,

we're running out of time slowly. here. we do have a couple of minutes, dave, i want to come to you because one of the things that you mentioned in your article right here in the nation, the tactical silence has failed. se brittany griner, his name advocating for a different strategy and approach. you said political prisoners quite literally die when their names are swallowed in our throats instead of shouted to the heavens. do you feel that, that, that should be the case in every case or, or, you know, as some people are thing in the case in brittany, including her teammates and taking instructions from maybe the attorneys that the silence might actually serve her better. yeah, i mean i, i, what i know about this comes from speaking to folks like danny people who do this for a living. people who i've spoken with uniformly have said to me that yes, there are times when silence is the best way to do it. but once the person has been established as a hostage, which i believe absolutely brittany griner has been than the time for silence has ceased. and my job right now is to get the sports media frankly,

to wake up that this should be the biggest sports story in the united states until brittany greiner come. so i'm and jason, just so you know, part of why he advocated for that. i know you wanted to jump in, but i just want to clarify that, you know, the whole world is watching is the kind of message that dave is suggesting. putin and russia needs needs to be aware, of course, on may 18th, when she finally enters, you know, court room to it. certainly. i mean, in the vacuum of no information about this case out in the world, they can do whatever they want. and i would encourage dave and others to keep writing about this as someone who's written about many of these cases since i myself experienced the same thing. i can tell you that no one has come home from being on stage. that i wrote about an ever said to me, hey jason, i really wish you hadn't reported on my case. i wish you just shut up and let me write in prison. i mean, that's pretty powerful testimony from you right there. anything you want to add,

dave, you're nodding in agreement just because something i was just talking to somebody about the other day was that when brittany criner comes home, do you really think she's going to thank all of her colleagues who didn't say anything. now she's going to thank the people that raised up her name and made sure that she didn't have to drown in the silence and darkness of being a political prisoner. yeah, you know, very quickly danny, i as i hear dave say that it makes sense to me, but then i wonder, well why would anyone pursue this strategy if it's not helpful? you know, if the silence is not helpful, a quick case to be made for that if the science is not help. yeah. yeah. what, why, why i'd the case silence. and so i think that there have been cases where there have been advocates, whether they're members of the us government or if they're working for their you know, what, you know, it's my fault to danny, i'm gonna have to interrupt you. i wanted to know that that, but we're running out of time here, but this is a conversation that should continue and we'll continue. so that's all the time we

have, danny, dave. jason, thank you so much for being with us. so your next time, my apologies. any ah ah and a bombardment, a missile and see it on the road. al jazeera ukrainians, determined to stay. you will not surrender just like to fight. don't you shoot. i had a training 2 days ago. they show me how that works and to defend the barricades and you documentary shows the ukrainian witnesses to war from the front lines dispatch

and defiance voices from ukraine on al jazeera. ah, a a ah, wherever you go in the world, one airline goes to make it for you. exceptional katara always going places to

go. ah, holding the powerful to account. as we examine the u. s. sheets role in the world on al jazeera, i hello, i'm marianna mas in london. with a quick look at the main stories now and ukraine's president has told the un security council, the body should expel russia or dissolve his household together. blows him, is it, and he was demanding accountability for rushes, alleged war crimes in his country. he says the world is yet to learn the full truth distinguished and the massacre and boots are, is only one example of what russian troops have been doing since the war started $41.00 days ago. i did but little rainy. we need decisions from the security council.