large and small to see and human al jazeera when a kiddos children. and you can find out much more on our web site. the address for that is w w. w dot al jazeera dot com. ah, this is al serra, these other top stories. now, more dead bodies have been discovered in the ukrainian town of butcher associated press. journalists have seen 6 burned bodies, lying on a st. others were found in and around people's houses. police officers are there documenting every scene they come across. ukraine's president has told the un security council that should expel russia or disband those events. lensky said the world is yet to learn the full truth of russia's alleged war crimes in his country . glass little rainy. we need

decisions from the security council for peace in ukraine. if you don't know how to implement this, you can do 2 things, either remove russia from the council, so it cannot block decisions about its own war. the other option is to reform the security council to work for peace. if there isn't an alternative, then we should disorder secret council altogether. russia's ambassador to the un denied accusations of war crimes in ukraine and repeated claims that bodies on the streets on butcher were not there when russian forces left the town route. is it to look just do we need to cut out the malignant nazi tumor that is consuming ukraine and would in time begin to consume russia and we will achieve that goal? i hope sooner rather than later because there is no other outcome. we are not shooting against civilian targets in order to save as many civilians as possible. this precisely why we're not advancing as fast as many expect that we're not acting like americans and their allies in iraq and syria women raising entire cities to

the ground. they had no pity for them, but we felt great pity because these are people who are close to us. and european union has announced it will hold all fossil fuel imports from russia. but it does not give a specific date around 150 russian diplomats have been expelled by e u countries. in the past 2 days. the u. s. will announce further sanctions on wednesday. peruse that president has lifted a curfew just a day after he ordered the police to enforce it. they have been days of sometimes violent protests against the rising cost of living. demonstrators ignored the curfew. order and confronted police. 4 people died during the fighting in the last week. those are the headlines. news continues herron al jazeera. that's after inside story. ah.

is russia committing atrocities in ukraine? images of bodies in civilian clothes in future have led to international condemnation. their causeway will crimes investigation against moscow. but can the accusations be proven in court? this is inside story. ah hello and welcome to the program. i'm fully betty bull ukraine's president has said negotiations are the only way to end the conflicts with russia. but after the

discovery of bodies in civilian clothes, in the town of butcher near keith, some with their hands bound to their backs. no demis lensky says, talks with moscow will not be easy. he wants friends invited me to put in, tried for war crimes, accusing him of slaughtering civilians. russia has strongly denied the allegations saying ukraine special forces stage, the killings in response. several you nations, including germany and france, are expelling russian. diplomats and the e. u has announced a new round of sanctions against moscow in mankind has this report from boucher i wanting some images may be distressing. ringback surrounded by heavy security and the media present, vladimir zalinski visited the town of butcher nick heave after witnessing the devastation he made a promise that justice would be done. scholars last name is war crimes. i will be recognized as genocide by the world. you're here and you see what has happened. we know about thousands killed in tortured people with cut limbs. some women who have

been raped in children have been murdered. we know they're so much more. this is genocide. a march 10th people here began to bury the dead in a 45 foot trench dug in the grounds of a church, some 68 bodies at 1st, some victims of war. others who died of natural causes. the priest of st. andrews church says he had to negotiate with the russians who occupied boucher to allow the barrels. but as the war dragged on more barrels in total, a $130.00 were buried her and the mass grave was needed all across. boucher, the dead lay in the streets for days even weeks. even now they wait to be picked up by overworked, undertakers. at the burial site, people had wrapped some of the bodies in black plastic, a little dignity and death. the families took some solace in the fact that they were buried next to the church. many had come to be wed or attend sunday service before the war for her to the day. the men as will dates the priest liens on his

faith to deal with what his witnessed which there is a lot of hatred and injustice that people few but christians should forgive me. but to forgive, it doesn't mean to forget the kind of judge only gut can judge. somebody's had been moved from the mass grave to morgues in and around the town since boucher was retaken by ukrainian forces. worse, more do. i'm here looking for my brother. we were close, we talked every day in your mouth, but until now i don't know where his body. so i'm going to try the mug. someone sent me a picture and told me i need to come to identify him with me and i hope he is there . this is likely to be one of the largest burial sites in the town, but it's by no means the only one. in fact, across this city, people were burying their dead wherever they could, in their back yards in common areas, anywhere where they might be able to give their dead, some dignity, and some respect for ukraine's attorney general and keep gathering evidence of

potential war crimes is now the priority we started now, investigations act charlie from march 24th of february this year. and now we have more than 4000 jasper cases about war crimes and near till sales and cases which are connected to walk cramps. now these days all heard speak about boucher it appearing. how stormy and in boucher justice for war crimes is a concern for the future. the dead of simeon to war, but those left behind a desperate medicines and food are unlimited supply. and what is available is quickly grabbed by. those who have little of their old lives left him wrong. how deserve boucher well russia's foreign minister has said that the bodies that were filmed in butcher were put there after the russians left sag oliver. av warns the accusations could threaten international peace through another.

faked act was arranged in the city of breach or in care of region after the russian military left from there in accordance with the plans and agreements reached there was a staging there a few days later, which is widely promoted now from all channels and social networks by ukrainian representatives and their western patrons. but us present, joe biden says, very strong evidence of atrocities he says were committed by russian troops. he's called for president putin to face trial. he is a provision. we are going to provide you with the weapons to continue the fight. and we have all the detail of, if you will have a war on trial. this guy is rudy. what's happening with everyone? ah, well let's now bring in our guests in berlin, hugh williamson,

the director for europe and central asia division of human rights watch in moscow. andre, on to kava political analyst and in new york, new jersey. alexander hinton, director of the center for the study of genocide and human rights, and distinguished professor of anthropology at rutgers university, a warm welcome to you all. thank you very much for being on inside story. before we begin our discussion, let's take a look at what is considered a war crime. according to the un, it's a breach of international law committed against civilians or enemy combatants during an armed conflict. the geneva convention defines a war crime as they will for killing torture or inhumane treatment, not justified by military necessity and carried out unlawfully and in an unprovoked manner. and international criminal court has since expanded the list by including crimes such as for pregnancy, which is intended to affect the ethnic makeup of a population. let me start with you alex xander. hinton in new york, new jersey,

do the images that we've seen come out of butcher this week of meet the definition of a war crime. yeah, i think 1st of all, thanks for having me on. but absolutely, that's one piece of a larger puzzle that clearly makes case that more crimes taking place. i think you need to look at this in the larger context of the violence that's been perpetrated by russia and ukraine, the aerial bombardment or obliteration bombing that's taken place. and as expected, as you know, people go back into the towns that were held. i expect that we're going to have many futures, but certainly in this larger context, definition, definition of war crimes and alexander, the korean president wrote me as lensky has even accused russia of genocide. what constitutes genocide, genocide if we think of war crimes as attacks on battens, noncombatants during the course of an arm conflict, genocide involves the intent to destroy and holler,

impart national meg racial or religious group and whole or in part as such because of who they are and different or different acts not just killing, but everything from killing to the deportation population. anyway, so they believe that happening? we crane right now. i think we need to gather more evidence. but what we do know what's happening because there's a system to sedate and genocide that needs to be proven to meet the legal definition. so as i said, we go in and gather more evidence, we can begin to get that sort of legal determination. but ultimately, it doesn't matter because it's one of a cluster of atrocity crimes that includes or crimes, crimes against humanity, ethnic cleansing, and genocide are known together as crimes. and international communities is agreed that all states their nation community has an obligation, the responsibility to protect populations against whom atrocities are being perpetrated. and this is clearly the case in ukraine. ok,

andrea antic of in moscow. let me bring you in. now shocking images out of boucher no doubt. moscow has denied that its soldiers had anything to do with these atrocities and says the images are fabricated. we heard from said a lot of we heard from the, the russian ambassador at the u. n as well. what do you think? do you think these killings could have been carried out by the russian military? no, i don't think so. the problem is that the russian troops have withdrew from boucher on the 31st of march and the same game the same day. the head of who has record a video, where he said that really, russian troops has withdrawn and he didn't mention anything about those bodies. he said everything is okay in the city. but when the ukranian army has entered the fidget a couple, a couple of days after the russian withdrawal, eventually we're seeing those images and those we do. so the question is, why,

why didn't anybody mention those bodies before ukrainian army has entered the c j. this is a real question. second, there is no secret that the bodies of the people start to decay very partly. i mean it's not about days or weeks. it's about hours. so if those by this late like 4 weeks or a day. so they, they would have some signs of decay and the smell of course, but it seems to be that those bodies were brought there by the ukrainian army to make it so called show. the another point is that we hear the word genocide. that way, way talk about genocide. it's because my mind, the korean army, the government is trying now to retake the, the russian stories. i mean,

russia has accused the training governments of genocide, committing genocide and engine bus region, but now we hear the same because asians against russia. so it seems so. yeah, yeah. ok. i hear what you're saying. let me bring in here, williamson now to respond to what you've just heard you from andrey, about. the dates of russia says it's withdrew from bush on the 31st of march. they say that the bodies were may be probably brought back by the ukrainian forces. i know that human rights watch has been to butcher you've started investigating. what have you seen? what have you found? i've published a report the weekend, which looked it's a problem. what crime is by russian forces in the 1st half of march in butcher and elsewhere in boucher we identified a case based on many interviews and other evidence where the russian

soldiers executed ukrainian man short distance in the back of the head by shooting him while he was kneeling on the pavement in the street in butcher. this was drawing the acknowledged russian occupation of which we also published a statement about evidence in the 1st half of march of a woman who was short. we don't know the circumstances of that shooting, but the russian troops denied access to her husband body for many day. so my colleagues have been in boucher for the last couple of days today and tomorrow are beginning an investigation about the aspect of the bodies. we don't know the circumstances in which those 3 or 400 bodies was killed. but we, i strongly concerned. but these could amount to war crimes because we have identified these one example of a war crime by russian soldiers in butcher away,

entirely unconvinced by the russian explanation that somehow the bodies were placed that you find it entirely unconvincing. right? and this, hugh is not the 1st incident, which has led to accusations of war crimes being leveled at russia. right. there was the incident of the married pole theater, of the theatre in marable. exactly. i mean, human rights was documented other for the power war crimes. the target civilians, the type of buildings by civilians are a staying coincidence. the theatre, for instance, schools and hospitals. the, the blocking of humanitarian aid through cities, undersea took money. all the use of found weapons in ukraine such as anti personnel, mines and cluster munitions, as well as well as other examples of summary executions. we also documented a case of,

of rape by russian soldier in east and new frame in early march as well. by the way, we should also say, we've also documented issues around the miss, the way ukrainian or russian prisoners of war. and we published 2 statements on, concerns about about if you as well ok can said i will ask you about the accusations of genocide that russia has leveled at ukraine for what's happening. what they say is happening in the don't by region in a bit. but i want to bring back andre into the conversation and respond to what you just heard from human rights watch. andre. russia saying that the bodies in boots are just coming back to what, what is happening now that, that evidence is fabricated. but how is russia going to be able to prove this. busy has human rights force or anybody else going to prove that russia is responsible for that? i doubt that we can rely on human rights for investigations. you see,

the problem is that now we hear the accusations against russia, but we also see that human rights torch, and other organizations to close their eyes on the, on the any crime is committed by the ukrainian forces. for example, low. lately, we're seeing the exchange or prisoners between russia and ukraine. we got our prisoners with their fingers cut off, and then genital cut off. does him drive short human rights or in mind? i don't think so. moreover, i would, i would like to remind you that a couple of weeks before the ukrainian army has bombed the feature with the cluster bottom. so where, where was human rights for rights for that moment, i don't know. so we can rely on human rights, or maybe we need independence investigation. the commission would be very dependent human investigation. i mean, human rights watch is considered an independent organisation when it comes to investigating such crimes. just

a few moments previously. i mentioned way we can rely on human rights watch and we can consider what if you williams and please respond. absolutely, absolutely. i mean that the evidence of. busy misuse, abuse, prisoners of war. certainly not. as i said, i'm play publish 2 statements, which concern about a power and war crimes against russian presents of war by him. ukraine human rights watch. his mission in ukraine is to uphold the laws of war. means the, the, the behavior of all parties to the conflict, russia and ukraine. so it's not particularly credible to suggest we are biased in this given. also we've issued several critical statements about ukraine. alexander hinton. let me bring you back into the conversation. now we've seen increasing the blurred lines in ukraine between civilians and fighters, ordinary ukrainians have taken up arms and gathered, for example,

to make molotov cocktails. so under international law, are they still considered civilians when they've been taking up arms? and could this give russia legal coverage? no, because they're looking at war crimes. right. it covers both combatants, noncombatants. so either way doesn't really matter. i'd like to sort of way and on our earlier discussion with andre as claims. i just want to point out that a classic form of denial is to divert to weight focus on the small and so not look at the big picture to not look at presidents not look at history. russia has a long history of committing atrocity crimes. we can go to a garage or a number of different places. the false statement that russia made that dennis i was taking place and dumbass has been debunked. i've written about it. i've helped the bunker atrocity crimes. were committed on both sides, right? there was different sort of mass human rights violations to play some dumb us. that's chronical. there have been monitors,

you've observed that it chronicled it. but there's nothing remotely resembling genocide that took place there. that's a false claim. and again, different forms of nile including genocide, denial, proceed and precisely this way casting doubt on things and terms of boucher washington post looked at ariel photographs, satellite images of boucher and there were dead bodies on the ground in the same places. so, you know, we look forward to the work of human rights watch. we should certainly listen to different motions, different complaints that are brought forth by russia. but again, if we look historically, we can see that russia as a history of making false claim, for example, they said they were conveyed ukraine, we can start with that, right? and right, your response, i mean many access argue that the invasion itself is a war. crime is a crime under the conception of aggressive warfare luca, historically. and so we should say that the ukrainian,

the so called ukrainian army, this is the, has cooperate with the german with nazi germany and committed so many war cries. but it's hard to imagine they killed the little children, the they, they killed women, they killed the people all over. ready that region, so i don't think if we can just close our eyes. i don't know what the so called ukrainian army made during world war 2. as for the boucher to reach out to butcher, i have already. busy mentioned some questions, so why the governor of bush at the head of butcher didn't mention and any bodies on the 31st of march, 20 record it is the video you didn't mention that, but what? well where the, the, the korean army has mentioned those bodies when it enters the city of

a couple of days after. busy after the rational withdrawal, this is the question and also i would like to yeah, that's still need to be answered. and as hugh said, the investigation is ongoing. who let me ask you now what happens after the investigation? what evidence is required? i mean, the i, c, c has already started an investigation into this, into the war in ukraine. but what happens, i mean, what evidence is required to, to prosecute perpetrators. and how solid does it need to be? so it needs to be very solid. so 1st of all we, we would point out that for a walk crime, it is actually the responsibility of the state committee who soldiers commit that crime as a responsibility to all those soldiers to account. so it actually rushes responsibility to human rights watch is, is calling on russia to, to investigate these allegations of war crimes by soldiers to hold those to account and prosecute them if necessary. if it doesn't happen,

then we welcome the fact that the ukraine as launched an investigation in boucher and elsewhere some exposed to the area. we encourage them to do the to do the investigation thoroughly and carefully need to be preserved. evidence needs to be testimony. witnesses needs to be gathered. we also welcome to the european union and the united states. and the last 2 days of committed to send names, special ed investigates with including forensic experts and elsewhere. right? because i can help with we've got the information and that all of that information by official bodies couldn't contribute to the, to the international criminal court. other part is defining whether these walk lines or not. and if they were that import case could, could stop in the have the international old russian military officials. but alexander, neither ukraine nor russia party to the international criminal court to the rome

statute. so neither can really bring allegations to prosecutors and the international court of justice, which was on dispute between states, both have rolled, upholding the boards of war. which of these 2 bodies you think is more apt to take on a case like this? yeah, well, there's already a case for the j of more broadly. is there a number of different options in terms of accountability and have emissions of inquiry that can be undertaken the work that's done by human rights monitors. as we've been hearing about, you can also have domestic courts that are established also through the can support universal jurisdiction which has cliff rated recently. you can have other countries bring, bring suit, hold people accountable. so there are a number of different options that rapport with who would be prosecuted in this case would, would, did go as far as present putting himself well,

we know we know that very hard to rest and put them on trial. then people can be tried, suits, can be brought forth without the person being present. if they don't show up, of course they lose a degree of credibility. but certainly i expect, and i'm virtually certain that we will see a number of accountability products seems that move forward. but we also need to think about transitional justice and also the reconstruction of new cranes in the longer term finding a way to find peace in the region. right. which is absolutely critical. andre, i'll give you the last word. would russia cooperate with an international investigation? yes, russia is ready for that, but this investigation must be a really independent the moment because i see that there is no independence in this investigation. when we talk about american experts or any other experts, they're not independent of my mind. and i have already mentioned some

questions that have to be answered before we hear expectations against russia, oregon, ukraine. so if you, we answer those questions, at least a couple of them. so we will see the truth. but it seems to me that nobody's interested to intrude we were here, they cause issues and we hear the person responsible for the and that's all i think it's immediate occasions political case, not about the human rights. it's not about a genocide. it's not about war crimes. but it's, well, it's nothing more. thank you for your time. thank you very much. i meant for an interesting discussion of which we had a bit more time. alexander hinton, andrew on to call, and hugh williamson. thank you all and thank you for watching. you can always watches program again any time by visiting our website or al jazeera dot com for further discussion. go to our facebook page at facebook dot com, forward slash ha, inside story. you can also join the conversation on twitter. i handle is that

a j inside story from ne, fully betty boy and the whole team here in doha? thanks for watching bye for now. ah, ah. and of all my friends and co workers who were detained, i am the only one who survived. they were me waiting for news of the menfolk and was only one word a little, much little to saw, a boy killed in his father's arms. i saw man kill next to his son. i have only once in my life, seen men who are scared to death. 30 years old from the start of the wall

bosnia, the count on al jazeera. there is no channel that covers world news like we do. we, we visit places the state. i'm 0 really invest in that, and that's a privilege. as a journalist ah, [000:00:00;00]

with school. ah, i'm terry johnston in doha, the top stories on al jazeera, ukrainian city of butcher has been a center of alleged atrocities carried out by russian forces for days. now. the killings have joined widespread condemnation from around the world. and now even more footage has emerged a warning that v was may find the pictures in andrew pals report. disturbing bodies weren't just left in the streets with the ship as ukrainian troops and police