exactly, information about the service in case but head, when it's time for von bin to go to work, she can't afford not to the child to raise her son doesn't want to let it go. she knows her mother's work is never done. and he's now left to be raised in a very different community from the one his biological parents had in mind. tony chang l to 0, cambodia. ah no, again, i'm fully veritable with the headlines on al jazeera, the full scale of the killings in the ukrainian towns of butcher air pin and bore a junker are beginning to emerge. key says more victims are being discovered every day, allegedly tortured, executed and burnt. it's horrible. you see it's just 6 bodies here are good house. you can see maybe

3 house. it's maybe one body. it's shot literally who was shot or after you. meanwhile, a beseech for city of mary paul is still facing heavy fighting and aerial bombardment. 160000 people are trapped there. they have no water. electricity or madison western powers are planning a series of punishing new sanctions against russia. ukraine's president ramirez lensky told the un security council. they must match the scale of what he called russia's war crimes. in other news, sri lanka, government has revoked a state of emergency which came into effects last week. it had been ordered by the president in response to widespread protests. people are demanding prison, go to buy a roger path, so resigns, fighting the worst economic crisis in decades peruse program. federal castillo has lifted a curfew just a day after he imposed it. it was put in place to stop

a waiver violent protests against the rising cost of living demonstrators or accusing garcia of incompetence and are demanding his resignation. his government has lost its majority in parliament after the chair. woman announced her resignation. it is sleeman, a politician from the same right wing party as the prime minister, and she would be stepping away. the departure pushes the already fragile coalition into further uncertainty. and human rights watch says molly's army killed more than 300 civilians last month with help from foreign fighters. and new reports says it happened in the town of mora in the central part of the country. the maryan army says it killed more than $200.00 fighters, but the right school says civilians were also killed. and you're up to date with the headlines on al jazeera, i'll be back with more news in under 30 minutes, joined me next on inside story to stay with us when the news breaks,

looking through the building, trying to see if there's anybody else drop inside. when people need to be heard, and the story told, i feel like i wasn't really awake until i went to market is definitely changed my life in a good way with exclusive interviews and in depth reports on javion. but he left her because al jazeera has teens on the ground to bring you more award winning documentaries, and live news. is russia committing atrocities in ukraine? images of bodies in civilian clothes in future have led to international condemnation. their causeway will crimes investigation against moscow. but can the accusations be proven in court? this is inside story. ah

hello and welcome to the program. i am fully batty bull ukraine president has said negotiations are the only way to end the conflict with russia. but after the discovery of bodies in civilian clothes, in the town of butcher near keith, some with their hands bound to their backs. no demis lensky says, talks with moscow will not be easy. he wants fred and vladimir putin tried for war crimes, accusing him of slaughtering civilians. russia has strongly denied the allegations saying ukraine special forces stage, the killings in response. several you nations, including germany and france, are expelling russian. diplomats and the e. u. has announced a new round of sanctions against moscow in mankind has this report from boucher a wanting. some images may be distressing. surrounded by heavy security and the media president vladimir zalinski visited the town of boucher nick heave. after witnessing the devastation, he made a promise that justice would be done. the scholars last name is war crimes that

will be recognized as genocide by the world. you're here and you see what has happened. we know about thousands killed in torture. people with cut lamps em women who have been raped in children have been murdered. a couple we know there's so much more. this is genocide from a march 10th people here began to bury the dead in a 45 foot trench dug in the grounds of a church, some 68 bodies at 1st, some victims of war. others who died of natural causes the priest of st. andrews church says he had to negotiate with the russians who occupied boucher to allow the barrels. but as the war dragged on more burials in total, a $130.00 were buried her and the mass grave was needed all across. boucher, the dead lay in the streets for days even weeks. even now they wait to be picked up by overworked, undertakers. at the burial site, people had dropped some of the bodies in black plastic, a little dignity and death. the families took some solace in the fact that they

were buried next to the church. many had come to be wed or attend sunday service before the war for her to the day. the men as will dates the priest liens on his faith to deal with what his witnessed. witcher. there is a lot of hatred and injustice that people few but christians should forgive from it, but to forgive it doesn't mean to forget the kind of judge only gut can judge. somebody's had been moved from the mass grave to morgues in and around the town since boucher was retaken by ukrainian forces. worse, more do. i'm here looking for my brother. we were close. we talked every day in your mouth, but until now i don't know where his body shop. i'm going to chide the mog, someone sent me a picture and told me i need to come to identify him and i hope he is there. this is likely to be one of the largest burial sites in the town, but it's by no means the only one. in fact, across this city, people were burying their dead wherever they could,

in their back yards in common areas, anywhere where they might be able to give their dead some dignity. and some respect the ukraine's attorney general and keep gathering evidence of potential war crimes is now the priority. we started now investigations, egg, charlie, from march 24th of february this year. and now we have more than 4000 jost durke cases about war crimes. and near til 1000 cases which are connected to war crimes. now these days all short speak about boucher it appears. hast dorman, and in boucher justice for war crimes is a concern for the future. the dead of simeon war, but those left behind a desperate medicines and food are in limited supply. and what is available is quickly grabbed by those who have little of their old lives left him wrong on how to 0. boucher, well, russia's foreign minister has said that the bodies that were filmed in butcher were

put there after the russians left sag oliver. av warns the accusations could threaten international peace through another faked act was arranged in the city of breach or in care of region. after the russian military left from their in accordance with the plans and agreements reached, there was a staging there a few days later, which is widely promoted now from all channels and social networks by ukrainian representatives and their western patrons. but us present, joe biden says, very strong evidence of atrocities he says were committed by russian troops. he's called for president putin to face trial. he is a perversion. we are going to provide you with the weapons to continue the fight. and we have all the detail of, if you will have a war on trial, this guy is brutal. what's happening with everyone?

ah, well, let's now bring in our guests in berlin, hugh williamson, the director for europe and central asia division of human rights watch in moscow. andre, on to kava political analyst and in new york, new jersey. alexander hinton, director of the center for the study of genocide and human rights, and distinguished professor of anthropology at rutgers university. a warm welcome to you all. thank you very much for being on inside story. before we begin our discussion, let's take a look at what is considered a war crime. according to the un, it's a breach of international law committed against civilians or enemy combatants during an armed conflict. the geneva convention defines a war crime as they will for killing torture or inhumane treatment, not justified by military necessity and carried out unlawfully and in an unprovoked manner. and international criminal court has since expanded the list by including

crimes such as for pregnancy, which is intended to affect the ethnic makeup of a population. let me start with you alex xander. hinton in new york, new jersey, do the images that we've seen come out of butcher this week, meet the definition of a war crime. yeah, i think 1st of all, thanks for having me on. but absolutely, that's one piece of a larger puzzle that clearly makes the case that more crimes taking place. i think you need to look at this in the larger context of the violence that's been perpetrated by russia and ukraine, the aerial bombardment or obliteration bombing. that's taken place and as expected, as people go back into the towns that were held. i expect that we're going to have many futures, but certainly in this larger context, definition of war crimes and alexander the cranium, president voting news. lensky has even accused russia of genocide. what constitutes

genocide, genocide if we think of war crimes as attacks on battens, noncombatants during the course of an arm conflict, genocide involves the intent to destroy and holler, impart national meg racial or religious group and whole or in part as such because of who they are and different they're different acts, not just killing, but everything from killing to the deportation population. anyway, so they believe that happening? we crane right now. i think we need to gather more evidence. but what we do know what's happening because there's a system anticipate and genocide that needs to be proven to meet the legal definition. so as i said, we go in and gather more evidence, we can begin to get that sort of legal determination. but ultimately, it doesn't matter because it's one of a cluster of atrocity crimes that includes or crimes, crimes against humanity, ethnic cleansing, and genocide are known together as crimes. and international communities is agreed

that all states their national community has an obligation, the responsibility to protect populations against whom atrocities are being perpetrated. and this is clearly the case in ukraine. ok, andrea antic off in moscow. let me bring you in. now shocking images out of boucher no doubt. moscow has denied that its soldiers had anything to do with these atrocities and says the images are fabricated. we heard from said a lot of we heard from the, the russian ambassador at the u. n as well. what do you think? do you think these killings could have been carried out by the russian military? no, i don't think so. the problem is that the russian troops have withdrew from boucher on the 31st of march and the same game the same day. the head of who has record at a video where he said that really, russian troops has withdrawn and he didn't mention anything about those bodies. he said everything is okay in the city. but when the ukranian army has entered the

fidget a couple, a couple of days after the russian withdrawal, eventually we're seeing those images and those we do. so the question is, why, why didn't anybody mention those bodies before the ukranian army has entered the c j. this is a real question. second, there is no secret that the bodies of the people start to decay very partly. i mean it's not about days or weeks. it's about hours. so if those by this late like 4 weeks or a day. so they, they would have some signs of decay and the smell of course, but it seems to be that those bodies were brought there by the ukrainian army to make it so called show. the another point is that we hear the word genocide. that way, way talk about genocide. it's because my mind, the korean army,

the government is trying now to retake the, the russian stories. i mean, russia has accused the training governments of genocide committing genocide and engine bus regions. but now we hear the same positions against russia so ok. yeah, yeah. ok. i hear what you're saying. let me bring in here. williamson now to respond to what you've just heard you from andrey about. the dates of russia says it's withdrew from bush on the 31st of march. they say that the bodies were, may be probably brought there by the ukrainian forces. i know that human rights watch has been to butcher. you've started investigating. what have you seen? what have you found? i've published a report the weekend which looked it's a problem what crime is by russian forces in the 1st half of march in butcher and

elsewhere in boucher. we identified a case based on many interviews and other evidence where the russian soldiers executed ukrainian man short distance in the back of the head by shooting him while he was kneeling on the pavement in the street in butcher. this was drawing the acknowledged russian occupation of which we also published a statement about evidence in the 1st half of march of a woman who was short. we don't know the circumstances of that shooting, but the russian troops denied access to her husband's body for many days. so my colleagues had been in boucher for the last couple of days today and tomorrow beginning an investigation about the aspect of the bodies. we don't know the circumstances in which those 3 or 400 bodies was killed. but we,

i strongly concerned. but these could amount to war crimes because we have identified these one example of a war crime by russian soldiers in butcher away, entirely unconvinced by the russian explanation that somehow the bodies were placed that you find it entirely unconvincing. right? and this, hugh is not the 1st incident, which has led to accusations of war crimes being leveled at russia. right. there was the incident of the married pole theater, of the theater in marable. exactly. i mean, human rights was documented other for the a power war crimes, the target civilians, the type of buildings by civilians are a staying clinton, the theater, for instance, schools and hospitals. the, the blocking of humanitarian aid to cities, undersea took money. all the use of found weapons in ukraine such as anti personnel, mines and cluster munitions,

as well as well as other examples of summary executions. we also documented the case of, of rape by russian soldier in east and new frame in early march as well. by the way, we should also say, we've also documented issues around the miss, the way ukrainian or russian prisoners of war. and we published 2 statements on, concerns about about if you as well ok can said i will ask you about the accusations of genocide that russia has leveled at ukraine for what's happening. what they say is happening in the don't by region in a bit. but i want to bring back andre into the conversation and respond to what you've just heard from human rights watch. andre. russia saying that the bodies in boots are just coming back to what, what is happening now that that evidence is fabricated. but how is russia going to be able to prove this. busy has human rights force or anybody else going to prove

that russia is responsible for that? i doubt that we can rely on human rights for investigations. you see, the problem is that now we hear the accusations against russia, but we also see that human rights torch and other organizations just close their eyes on the, on the any crime is committed by the ukrainian forces. for example, low. lately we're seeing the exchange or prisoners between russia and ukraine. we got our prisoners with their fingers cut off, and then genitals cut off him. dr. forged human rights, which in mind i don't think so. moreover, i would, i would like to remind you that a couple of weeks before the ukrainian army has bombed the feature and with the cluster bomb. so where, where was human rights for rights? for sure. that moment, i don't know. so we can rely on human rights, or maybe we need independence investigation. the commission would that independent

human investigation? i mean human rights watch is considered an independent organisation when it comes to investigating such crimes. just a few moments previously. i mentioned way we can rely on human rights watch and we can consider okay, what if you williams and please respond? absolutely, absolutely. i mean that the evidence of. busy misuse, abuse of prisoners of war. certainly not. as i said, i'm play publish 2 statements, which concern about a power and war crimes against russian presents of war by him. ukraine human rights . what his mission in ukraine is to uphold the laws of war means the, the, the behavior of all parties to the conflict, russia and ukraine. so it's not particularly credible to suggest we are biased in this given. also, we've issued several critical statements about ukraine. alexander hinton,

let me bring you back into the conversation. now we've seen increasing the blurred lines in ukraine between civilians and fighters, ordinary ukrainians have taken up arms and gathered for example, to make molotov cocktails. so under international law, are they still considered civilians when they've been taking up arms? and could this give russia legal coverage? no, because they're looking at war crimes. right. it covers both combatants, noncombatants. so either way doesn't really matter. i'd like to sort of way and on our earlier discussion with andre as claims. i just want to point out that a classic form of denial is to divert to weight focus on the small and so not look at the big picture to not look at presidents not look at history. russia has a long history of committing atrocity crimes. we can go to a garage or a number of different places. the false statement that russia made that dennis i was taking place in dumbass has been debunked. i've written about it. i've helped

the bunker atrocity crimes. were committed on both sides, right? there was different sort of mass human rights violations to play some dumb us. that's chronical. there have been monitors observed that it cannot hold it. but there's nothing remotely resembling genocide that took place there. that's a false claim. and again, different forms of denial including genocide, denial, proceed and precisely this way casting doubt on things and terms of boucher washington post looked at ariel photographs, satellite images of boucher and there were dead bodies on the ground in the same places. so, you know, we look forward to the work of human rights watch. we should certainly listen to different motions, different complaints that are brought forth by russia. but again, if we look historically, we can see that russia as a history of making false claim, for example, they said they were conveyed ukraine. we can start with that, right? and write your response. i mean, many access argue that the invasion itself is

a war crime is a crime under the conception of aggressive warfare luca, historically. and so we should say that the ukrainian, the so called ukranian army, this is the has brokerage with the german, with nazi germany. and has committed so many work, right? it's hard to imagine. they killed the little children, the they, they killed women, they killed the people all over. ready that region, so i don't think it's we can just close our eyes. i don't know what the so called ukrainian army made during world war 2. as for the butcher to return to butcher, i have. busy emissions some questions. so why the governor of bush at the head of butcher didn't mention and any body is on the 31st of march, 20 record. it is the video you didn't mention that, but what?

well where the, the, the korean army has mentioned those bodies when it enters the city of a couple of days after. busy after the rational withdrawal, this is the question and also i would like to yeah, that's still need to be answered. and as hugh said, the investigation is ongoing. who let me ask you now what happens after the investigation? what evidence is required? i mean, the i, c, c has already started an investigation into this, into the war in ukraine. but what happens, i mean, what evidence is required to, to prosecute perpetrators. and how solid does it need to be? so it needs to be very solid. so 1st of all we, we would point out that for a walk crime, it is actually the responsibility of the state committee who soldiers commit that crime as a responsibility to all those soldiers to account with. actually russians. responsibility

to human rights watch is, is calling on russia to, to investigate these allegations of war crimes by soldiers to hold those to account and prosecute them if necessary. if it doesn't happen, then we welcome the fact that the ukraine as launched an investigation in boucher and elsewhere said some exposed to the area. we encourage them to do the to do the investigation thoroughly and carefully need to be preserved. evidence needs to be testimony. witnesses needs to be gathered. we also welcome to the european union and the united states. and the last 2 days of committed to send names, special ed investigates with including forensic experts and elsewhere. right? because i can help with we've got the information and that all of that information by official bodies couldn't contribute to the, to the international criminal court to other bodies, to finding one of these war crimes or not. if they were that a court case could,

could stop in the have the international criminal court against russian military officials. but alexander, neither ukraine nor russia party to the international criminal court to the rome statute. so neither can really bring allegations to prosecutors and the international court of justice, which was on dispute between states, both have rolled, upholding the boards of war. which of these 2 bodies you think is more apt to take on a case like this? yeah, well there's already a case for the i c j of more broadly there a number of different options in terms of accountability and have emissions of inquiry that can be undertaken. the work that's done by human rights monitors, as we've been hearing about. you can also have domestic courts that are established also through the principle universal jurisdiction which has live rated recently. you can have other countries bring suit, hold people accountable. so there are

a number of different options for when i was with who would be prosecuted in this case would, would, did go as far as present putting himself well, we know we know that hard to rest and put them on trial. then people can be tried, you know, suits, can be brought forth without the person being present. if they don't show up, of course they lose a degree of credibility. but certainly i expect, and i'm virtually certain that we will see a number of accountability prophecies that move forward. but we also need to think about transitional justice and also the reconstruction of new crane in the longer term finding a way to find peace in the region. right. which is absolutely critical. and i'll give you the last word. would russia cooperate with an international investigation? yes, russia is ready for that, but this investigation must be a really independent at the moment. i see that there is no independence in race

investigation. when we talk about american experts or any other experts, they're not independent of my mind. and i have already mentioned that some questions have to be answered before we hear expectations against russia or against your brain. so if you, we answer those questions, at least a couple of them. so we will see the truth. but it seems to me that nobody's interested to intrude. we were here. they just ations and we hear the person responsible for the and that's all i think it's a media occasion. it's political case, not about the human rights. it's not about a genocide, it's nothing about war crimes, it's nothing more. thank you for your time. thank you very much. i meant for an interesting discussion of which we had a bit more time. alexander hinton, andre auntie called and hugh williamson. thank you all and thank you for watching. you can always watches program again any time by visiting our website or al jazeera

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a minute and power and passion. we tell your story. we are your voice, your news, your net al jazeera. ah, russia is accused of committing war crimes in the ukrainian town of butcher as new video emerges of more bodies on the streets and reports of heavy fighting and air strikes in the besieged quartz variable. what tens of thousands are tracked? ah, play you're watching al jazeera live from to how with me fully bad. people also coming up shall anchors government to revoke the state of emergency the.