she knows her mother's work is never done. and he is now left to be raised in a very different community. from the one his biological parents had in mind. tony chang l to 0. cambodia ah, play again, i'm fully back the ball with the headlines on al jazeera, the full scale of the killings in the cranium times of butcher are pain. and bro, john car are beginning to merge. key says more victims of being discovered every day, allegedly tortured, executed in burned, the besieged port city of mary paul is still facing heavy fighting and aerial bombardment. 160000 people are trapped there. have no water, electricity, or medicine. western powers of planning a series of punishing new sanctions against russia. ukraine president voted me as lensky told the un security council. they must match the scale of what he called a russia's war crimes. in other news booking fossils form of president blaze.

compound re, has been sentenced to life in prison for complicity in the murder of his predecessor, to my son, kara come berries leaving an exile in ivory coast. nicholas hark has more this trial set out to answer this one question, who was involved in his killing? who ordered the killing of thomas on car up and while it gave out some conviction of the giving the responsibility to the former president bless, compound way, it fell short in investigating whether foreign powers were involved. perhaps whether france was involved, the former colonial power in the killing the murder to my son car. but it is a very significant moment. it's for many across the french speaking with africa and particularly in bertina far so victory for the rule of law. members of parliament in sri lanka have met for the 1st time since the governing coalition lost its majority. at least 40 politicians walked out of the alliance on tuesday, following the government's failure to reduce food and fuel prices,

which as fox protests, hong kong, 2nd highest official, has resigned in plans to run in next month leadership election. john lee said his waiting for approval from beijing to be a contender to replace chief executive carry. lamb is there, as government has lost its majority in parliament following the resignation of chair women. 80 to 3 men had the punch. it means that the front john coalition government is relying on support from opposition parties and it can few, imposed in pro to stop protests against the rising cost of living has last had just 24 hours. president pedro cas theory various discuss your decision as opponents accused him of incompetence and demand his resignation. and those are the headlines on al jazeera, that's it for me fully by table next on. i'll just 0 inside story. stay with this. ah.

is russia committing atrocities in ukraine? images of bodies in civilian clothes, in future have led to international condemnation, their causeway will crimes investigation against moscow. but can the accusations be proven in court? this is inside story. ah hello and welcome to the program. i'm fully bad. people ukraine's president has said negotiations are the only way to end the conflicts with russia. but after the discovery of bodies in civilian clothes, in the town of butcher, near keith, some with their hands bound to their backs. not him is lensky says, talks with moscow will not be easy. he wants friends invited me to put in,

tried for war crimes, accusing him of slaughtering civilians. russia has strongly denied the allegations saying ukraine special forces stage, the killings in response. several you nations, including germany and france, are expelling russian diplomats and the e. u has announced a new round of sanctions against moscow in mankind. has this report from boucher wanting some images may be distressing. ready surrounded by heavy security and the media present, vladimir zalinski visited the town of butcher nick heave. after witnessing the devastation he made a promise that justice would be done to school. his last name is war. crimes that will be recognized as genocide by the world. you're here and you see what has happened. we know about thousands killed in tortured people with cut lim. some women who have been raped in children have been murdered. we know they're so much more. this is genocide. a march 10th people here began to bury the dead in a 45 foot trench dug in the grounds of a church, some 68 bodies at 1st,

some victims of war. others who died of natural causes. the priest of st. andrews church says he had to negotiate with the russians who occupied boucher to allow the barrels. but as the war dragged on more barrels in total, a $130.00 were buried her and the mass grave was needed all across. boucher, the dead lay in the streets for days even weeks. even now they wait to be picked up by overworked, undertakers. at the burial site, people had wrapped some of the bodies in black plastic, a little dignity and death. the families took some solace in the fact that they were buried next to the church. many had come to be wed or attend sunday service before the war for her to the day. the men as will dates the priest liens on his faith to deal with what his witnessed. witcher. there is a lot of hatred and injustice that people few but christians should forgive me,

but to forgive, it doesn't mean to forget the can't judge. only gut can judge somebody's had been moved from the mass grave to morgues in and around the town. since boucher was retaken by ukrainian forces worse more the i'm here looking for my brother. we were close. we talked every day in your mouth, but in town now, i don't know where his body shop. i'm going to chide the mog, someone sent me a picture and told me i need to come to identify him and i hope he is there. this is likely to be one of the largest burial sites in the town, but it's by no means the only one. in fact, across this city, people were burying their dead wherever they could, in their back yards in common areas, anywhere where they might be able to give their dead, some dignity, and some respect for ukraine's attorney general and keep gathering evidence of potential war crimes is now the priority we started now investigations echo charlie from march 24th of february this year. and now we have more than 4000

jasper cases about war crimes and near til 1000 cases which are connected to walk rams. now these days all hord speak about boucher it appearing. how storming and in boucher justice for war crimes is a concern for the future. the dead of simeon the war, but those left behind a desperate medicines and food are unlimited supply. and what is available is quickly grabbed by those who have little of their old lives left him wrong con. how deserve boucher well russia's foreign minister has said that the bodies that were filmed in butcher were put there after the russians left sag lavonne warned, the accusations could threaten international peace through another. faked act was arranged in the city of breach or in care of region. after the russian military left one day in accordance with the plans and agreements reached,

there was a staging day, a few days later, which is widely promoted now from all channels and social networks by ukrainian representatives and their western patrons that us present. joe biden says there is strong evidence of atrocities he says, we're committed by russian troops. he's called for president putin to face trial. he is a provision we are going to provide you with the weapons to continue the fight. and we have all the detail of, if you will have a war on trial, this guy is brutal. what's happening with everyone? ah, well, let's now bring in our guests in berlin, hugh williamson, the director for europe and central asia division of human rights watch in moscow. andre, on to kava political analyst and in new jersey. alexander hinton,

director of the center for the study of genocide and human rights, and distinguished professor of anthropology at rutgers university. a warm welcome to you all. thank you very much for being on inside story. before we begin our discussion, let's take a look at what is considered a war crime. according to the un, it's a breach of international law committed against civilians or enemy combatants during an armed conflict. the geneva convention defines a war crime as they will for killing torture or inhumane treatment, not justified by military necessity and carried out unlawfully and in an unprovoked manner. and international criminal court has since expanded the list by including crimes such as for pregnancy, which is intended to affect the ethnic makeup of a population. let me start with you alex xander. hinton in new york, new jersey. do the images that we've seen come out of butcher this week meet the definition of a war crime? yeah, i think 1st of all, thanks for having me on. but absolutely,

that's one piece of a larger puzzle. that clearly makes case that more crimes taking place. i think you need to look at this in the larger context of the violence that's been perpetrated by russia and ukraine, the aerial bombardment or obliteration bombing that's taken place. and as expected, as people go back into the towns that were held, i expect that we're going to have many inches, but certainly in this larger context, definition of war crimes and alexander, the korean president voting is lensky has even accused russia of genocide. what constitutes genocide, genocide if we think of or crimes as attacks on battens, noncombatants during the course of an arm conflict, genocide involves the intent to destroy and holler in part national migration or, or religious group and whole or in part as such because of who they are and different,

they're different acts not just killing, but everything from killing to the deportation population. anyway, so do you believe that happening with your brain right now? i think we need to gather more evidence, but what we do know what's happening because there's a system. it's just a data genocide that needs to be proven to meet the legal definition. so as i said, we go in and gather more evidence and we can begin to get that sort of legal determination. but ultimately, it doesn't matter because it's one of a cluster of atrocity crimes that include or crimes, crimes against humanity, ethnic cleansing, and genocide are known together as crimes. and international communities is agreed that all states their national community has an obligation, the responsibility to protect populations against whom atrocities are being perpetrated. and this is clearly the case in ukraine. ok, andrea antic of in moscow. let me bring you in. now, shocking images out of bush and no doubt, moscow has denied that its soldiers had anything to do with these atrocities and

says, the images of fabricated. we heard from said a lot of we heard from the, the russian ambassador at the u. n. as well. what do you think? do you think these killings could have been carried out by the russian military? no, i don't think so. the problem is that the russian troops have withdrew from boucher on the 31st of march and the same game the same day. the head of who has record a video, where he said that really, russian troops has withdrawn and he didn't mention anything about those bodies. he said everything is okay in the city. but when the ukranian army has entered the fidget a couple, a couple of days after the russian withdrawal, eventually we're seeing those images and those we do. so the question is, why, why didn't anybody mention those bodies before ukrainian army has entered the city?

this is a real question. second, there is no secret that the bodies of the people start to decay very partly. i mean it's not about days or weeks. it's about hours. so if those by the late light, for weeks or day. so they would have some signs of decay and the smell, of course, but it seems to be that those bodies were brought there by the ukrainian army to make it so called show. the another point is that we hear the word genocide. that way, why talk about genocide is because my mind, the korean army, the government is trying now to retake the, the russian stories. i mean, russia has accused training and government of genocide committing genocide and engine bus region. but now we hear the same because asians against russia,

so. okay. yeah, yeah. ok. i hear what you're saying. let me bring in here, williamson now to respond to what you've just heard you from andrey about. the dates of russia says it's withdrew from bush on the 31st of march. they say that the bodies were, may be probably brought there by the ukrainian forces. i know that human rights watch has been to butcher. you've started investigating. what have you seen? what have you found him and i was published the report the weekend which looked it's a power war. crime is by russian forces in the 1st half of march in butcher and elsewhere in boucher. we identified a case based on many interviews and other evidence where the russian soldiers executed ukrainian man short distance in the back of the head by shooting him while he was kneeling on the pavement in the street in

butcher. this was shoring the acknowledged version occupation, of which we also published a statement about evidence in the 1st half of march of a woman who was shot. we don't know the circumstances of that shooting, but the russian troops denied access to husbands body for many day. so my colleagues have been in boucher for the last couple of days today and tomorrow are beginning an investigation about the aspect of the bodies. we don't know the circumstances in which those 3 or 400 bodies, what killed we. i strongly concerned. but these could amount to war crimes because we have identified obese, one example of a war crime by russian soldiers in butcher away, entirely unconvinced by the russian explanation. somehow the bodies were placed that you find it entirely unconvincing. right?

and this hue is not the 1st incident, which has led to accusations of war crimes being leveled at russia. right. there was the incident of the married pole theater, of the theatre in marable. exactly. i mean, human rights was documented other for the power war crimes target civilians. the type of buildings by civilians are a staying coincidence. the theatre, for instance, schools and hospitals. the, the blocking of humanitarian aid through cities under see all the use of found weapons in ukraine such as anti personnel, mines and cluster munitions, as well as well as other examples of summary executions. we also documented a case of, of rain by russian soldier in east and new frame in early march as well. by the way, we should also say, we've also documented issues around the miss,

the way ukrainian or russian prisoners of war. and we published 2 statements on, concerns about about if you as well ok can says i will ask you about the accusations of genocide that russia has leveled at ukraine for what's happening. what they say is happening in the don't by region in a bit. but i want to bring back andre into the conversation and respond to what you just heard from human rights watch. andre. russia saying that the bodies in boots are just coming back to what, what is happening now that that evidence is fabricated. but how is russia going to be able to prove this. busy has human rights force or anybody else say, going to prove that russia is responsible for that? i doubt that we can rely on human rights for investigations. you see, the problem is that now we hear the accusations against russia, but we also see that human rights torch and other organizations just close their eyes on the, on the any crime is committed by the ukrainian forces. for example,

lately we're seeing the exchange or prisoners between russia and ukraine. we got our prisoners with their fingers cut off, and then gentle cut off. does him drive short human rights or take it in mind? i don't think so. moreover, i was, i would like to remind you that a couple of weeks before the ukrainian army has bombed the feature of it with the cluster bomb. so where, where was human rights for rights? for at that moment, i don't know so we can rely on human rights, or maybe we need independence investigation, the commission that independent human investigation. i mean human rights watch is considered an independent organisation when it comes to investigating such crimes. just a few moments previously i mentioned where we can rely on human rights watch and we can consider what if you williams and please respond? absolutely, absolutely. i mean that is evidence of misuse, abuse,

presence of war. certainly not. as i said, i'm today published 2 statements, which are res, concerned about a power and war crimes against russian presents of war by him. ukraine human rights . what his mission in ukraine is to uphold the laws of war means the, the, the behavior of all parties to the conflict, russia and ukraine, that was not particularly credible to suggest we are biased in this given. also, we've issued several critical statements about ukraine. alexander hinton, let me bring you back into the conversation. now we've seen increasing the blurred lines in ukraine between civilians and fighters, ordinary ukrainians have taken up arms and gathered for example, to make molotov cocktails. so under international law, are they still considered civilians when they've been taking up arms? and could this give russia legal cover?

know because they're looking at war crimes, right. it covers both combatants and noncombatants. so either way doesn't really matter. i'd like to sort of way and on our earlier discussion with andre as claims i want to point out that a classic form of denial is to divert, to wade, focus on the small and not look at the big picture to mount the precedents. not look at history. rush has a long history of committing atrocities. crimes. we can go to grab a number of different places. the false statement that russia a dennis i was taken place and dumb boss has been debunked. i've written about it. i've helped, atrocity crimes were committed on both sides. right? there was different sort of mass human rights violations to play some dumbass. that's chronical. never been monitors who observed that it's called it. but there's nothing remotely resembling genocide that took place there. that's a false claim. and again, different forms of denial including genocide, denial,

proceed and precisely this way casting doubt on things in terms of boucher, the washington post looked at ariel photograph, satellite images of boucher and there were dead bodies on the ground in the same places. so, you know, we look forward to the work of human rights watch. we should certainly listen to different motions, different complaints that are brought forth by russia. but again, if we look historically, we can see that russia has a history of making false claims. for example, they said they were going to invade ukraine. we can start with that. sorry, andrea, your response. i mean, many experts argue that the invasion itself is a war crime is a crime under the conception of aggressive warfare luca, historically. and so we should say that the ukrainian, the so called ukrainian army, this is the brokerage with the german, with nazi germany and committed so many war crimes. so it's hard to

imagine they killed the little children, the they, they killed women, they killed the people all over. ready that region, so i don't think if we can just close our eyes. i don't know what the so called ukrainian army has made during world war 2, s for the butcher to return to butcher. i have already mentioned some question. so why the governor of bush at the head of butcher didn't mention and any bodies on the 31st of march, 20 record it is the video you didn't mention that, but what? well, where the, the, the korean army has mentioned those bodies when it enters the seizure check a couple of days after, after the rational withdrawal. this is the question and i also, i would like to, yeah, that's still need to be answered. and as hugh said,

the investigation is ongoing. who let me ask you now what happens after the investigation? what evidence is required? i mean, the i c, c has already started an investigation into this into the war in ukraine. but what happens, i mean, what evidence is required to, to prosecute perpetrators and how solid does it need to be? so it needs to be very solid. so 1st of all we, we will point out that for a walk crime, it is actually the responsibility of the state committee who soldiers commit that crime as a responsibility to all those soldiers to accounts with actually russians. responsibility to human rights watch is, is calling on russia to, to investigate these allegations of war crimes by soldiers and to hold those account and prosecute them if necessary. if it doesn't happen, then we welcome the fact that the ukraine as launched an investigation in boucher and elsewhere said some experts to the area. we encourage them to do the to do the

investigation thoroughly. and carefully. bodies need to be preserved. evidence needs to be. busy testimony witnesses needs to be gathered. we also welcome to find the european union and the united states. and the last 2 days of committed to send names, special ed investigates with including forensic experts and elsewhere. right. because that can help with we've got the information that all of that information by official bodies couldn't contribute to the, to the international criminal court. other part is defining what these walk lines are not. and if they were that import case could, could start in the have the international criminal court against russian military officials. but alexander, neither ukraine nor russia party to the international criminal court to the rome statute. so neither can really bring allegations to prosecutors and the international court of justice, which was on dispute between states,

both have rolled, upholding the boards of war. which of these 2 bodies you think is more apt to take on a case like this? yeah, well, there's already a case for the j of more broadly. is there a number of different options in terms of accountability and have emissions of inquiry that can be undertaken the work that's done by human rights monitors. as we've been hearing about, you can also have domestic cords that are established also through the universal jurisdiction which has political rated recently. you can have other countries, you know, bring, bring sued, hold people accountable. so there are a number of different options or should be who would be prosecuted in this case? what would it go as far up as present put in himself? well, we know we know that very hard to rest and put them on trial. then people can be tried, you know, suits, can be brought forth without the person being present. if they don't show up,

of course they lose a degree of credibility. but certainly i expect, and i'm virtually certain that we will see a number of accountability prophecies that move forward. but we also need to think about transitional justice and also the reconstruction of new crime in the longer term finding a way to find peace in the region. right. which is absolutely critical. andre, i'll give you the last word. would russia corporate with an international investigation? yes, russia is ready for that, but this investigation must be a really independent at the moment. i see that there is no independence in race investigation. when we talk about american experts or any other experts, they're not independent of my mind. and i have already mentioned that some questions have to be answered before we hear nations against russia or against ukraine. so if you, we answer those questions, at least

a couple of them. so we will see the truth. but it seems to me that nobody's interested to intrude. we were here. they just ations and we hear the person responsible for the and that's all i think it's a media occasions political case. not about the human rights. it's not about genocide. it's not about war crimes. luckily it's nothing more. thank you for your time. thank you very much. i meant for an interesting discussion of which we had a bit more time. alexander hinton, andre auntie called and hugh williamson. thank you and thank you for watching. you can always watch is program again any time by visiting our website or al jazeera dot com for further discussion. go to our facebook page at facebook dot com, forward slash ha inside story. you can also join the conversation on twitter handle is that a j inside story from ne, fully back to bore and the whole team here in doha. thanks for watching bye for now .

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bold and i'm told stories from asia and the pacific on al jazeera ah summer madison and dough, other top stories on the al jazeera, a full scale of killings in the ukrainian towns of boucher lpn and bought a junker are beginning to emerge. keep says more victims are being discovered every day. it's alleged, they've been tortured, executed, and burned. let me warn you that some viewers may find the pictures in the mon cons report. distressing bodies weren't just left in the streets of the ship as ukrainian troops and police investigators go house to house. they find more victims in boucher.