i found it people in its bunkers on a population of 2100000. so the government plan to upgrade them is seen as a way to reassure its citizens. rather than aiming to offer protection for every one step, fasten l g 0 in berlin. the 1st all private mission to the international space station is on its way home after a string of delays. the ax, one mission was supposed to last 10 days, but it's taken a week longer because of bad weather. for astronauts on board include 3 businessman, who each paid $55000000.00 for that trip to space dragon itself shows. ah, hello again. these are the headlines on al jazeera. you are sectors dancing, and lincoln has promised ukraine's forces continued support from the white house. he met the ukrainian presidency. keep on sunday, along with us defense secretary lloyd austin. russia is failing. ukraine is

succeeding. russia has sought as its principal way to totally subjugate ukraine to take away its sovereignty, to take away its independence. that has fail. it sought to assert the power of its military and its economy. we are forcing just the opposite military that is dramatically under performing an economy as a result of sanctions as a result of a mass exodus from russia. that is in shambles. thursday, the broke president biden signed a, you know, a drop down and on saturday, ours was worth drawn up from that draw down package. that is the unimaginable speed . and it's due to the hard work of all the men and women who are working day out day in a day out to, to do the kinds of things that they're doing. what we're going to remain focused on giving him what he needs to be successful in the future and that that's what you'd, you'd expect you'd expect for him to say bikes. but, and he's really grateful. but,

you know, let's focus on what needs to be done. french president, somebody when mackerel has been reelected comfortably beating far right challenger marine, the pen microns. acknowledge the dissatisfaction with his 1st term while the pen says she's in a good position for upcoming parliamentary elections. mass coven, 19 testing has begun and beijing's largest district chow yang. china has been racing to track an outbreak that may have been spreading in the capital for a week. there are fears that a wide spread lockdown could be imposed. the 1st verdict and the corruption trials of me in mars, deposed civilian leader, has been delayed, and san sued. she was arrested by the army when it sees power more than a year ago. and a guilty verdict could mean a sentence of up to 15 years. you're up to date with all the latest headlines on al jazeera, more news at the top of the hour, after inside. sorry bye bye. on counting the cost sri lanka,

worst economic crisis in decades. what are they? chances are a bailout. china's g d. p growth feeds 1st quarter expectations that could be economy grind to a halt and a high fuel prices pushing out demand for electric cars. counting the cost on al jazeera, keep user safe or refined billions of dollars. the u sets new rules, forcing tech companies to remove illegal content. how will the regulations work? and could they limit free speech on the internet? this is inside story. ah hello and welcome to the program. i'm how much m room. it's being held as the start of a new era for online protection. the european union has approved rules to force big

technology firms such as google, facebook and twitter to remove illegal conte it. if they don't, they could be fined billions of dollars. tech companies lobby against the digital services act, or d. s a. but you politicians finalize the details on saturday. after 16 hours of negotiations. the rules outline how company should keep users safe on the internet . tech groups will also have to disclose how they tackle this information and propaganda. that effort gained momentum after rushes invasion of ukraine. it's a rat. we have the political agreement on the good service act. i have learned so much these 2 years. and the agreement tonight is better than the proposal that we take and what we have achieved is it is not slogan anymore. was that what is an eager assign also be seen and that was as legal online. now. now it is a real thing. democracy's back helping us to get our rights and to feel safe when

we are online. the regulations will come into force in 2024. governments can ask companies to remove content that promotes terrorism, child sexual abuse, and commercial scams. social media platforms such as facebook and twitter will have to make it easier for users to flag harmful content. that will also apply to e commerce companies like amazon for counterfeit or unsafe products. companies will be banned from using deceptive techniques to get people to sign up for services. repeated breaches could see them banned from trading in the you go who responded by saying it will work with policy makers on the details. last month, e u approved separate legislation to prevent anti competitive behavior by tech companies. for example, sites like google will be banned from favoring their own services and search engine results messenger apps including whatsapp. we'll have to operate with smaller platforms, and it'll prevent software being pre installed on computers and phones. tech companies say that could stifle innovation. ah.

all right, let's go ahead and bring in our guests from brussels. johan a sparky, coordinating spokesman for the digital economy, research and innovation at the european commission from maslick, catalina, go into associate professor in private law and technology at intellect, university in the netherlands and from paris. thomas vignette, partner and co chair of the global anti trust group at cliff for chance. law firm, a warm welcome to you all, and thanks so much for joining us today on inside story. your honest, let me start with you today. just how will these regulations work and also the fact that these new laws are to be enforced out of brussels rather than through regulators and individual countries. is that going to make enforcement easier? thing 1st of all, yes it will make and falsely is yes. important to note that only the very big a platform. so if you reach 10 percent of european so that is 45000000 uses then regulation. and so it was meant to be with the commission uncles. so

a small person was good not b, b as opposed to brussels. but it's of course easier here. this one set of rules for all other forms in the you and also central wasn't the city. a catalina, from your perspective, just how groundbreaking are these new rules and regulations and how, how significant is all this? i think that the, especially the dcf where looking particularly at the discourse, the public discourse around illegal content. this is definitely drown groundbreaking because the dsa is making the invisible visible. we have had a lot of rules in the past that have been applicable together with an e commerce directive, which is that now a predecessor seemed to be predecessor of dan, dsa, the digital services act. and there has been a lot of focus given to, you know, what kind of content should be online, such as the fact that platforms should be a should to, should have a lot of the activities that are, that they will be responsible for in terms of taking down for instance,

terrorist contact con content or child pornography. so these rules have already been there before, but what the d a say is now bringing to the 4 and therefore making the invisible visible is that there's a plethora of other rules that will be applicable at the same time. with that traditional types of illegal content that we know, and we can see this in the definition of illegal content in the dsa currently, which says that illegal content is basically any kind of content that is a violation of national or european law. thomas. so now we have the digital services act that has been approved earlier this year. the you approved the digital markets act that's meant to tackle the market power of silicon valley firms. how far reaching will these regulatory actions be? well, the digital market sack that you just mentioned is rather revolutionary in terms of the obligations that it places upon the largest platforms, which might very well include a few european companies beyond the,

the american ones that will undoubtedly be included. so there will be some very far reaching obligations on those companies to enable up interoperability. for example, with facebook, an apple will be required to allow uses of different forms of been a payment mechanisms. google will have to rank and it's search results fairly without any preference for its own search results. so quite a number of really, very serious obligations. in addition, of course, to the brand new political agreement on the dsa, which has already been mentioned, the honest these regulations, this is all very, very big in scope of how, how will it be insured that tech companies are going to police themselves? yeah, look, i mean i would like to add maybe one thing to what has it because the is a is not only looking at if you get content, but also it at home for content. so think about, for example,

content that promotes. busy kind of, you know, can increase ease like eating disorders, for example. talk, you know, it is kind of like young people following following the feed and that may be inclined to, i don't know, the eating. that is something that is not illegal, but it is harmful to people who are like, well young people who follow this and so you will have not, you die forms. we do need a risk assessment every year. and then the risks that identified that the need to be a to mitigate this way than be controlled by the commission. and of course that would be fine. for example. i mean fines. they go up to 6 percent of those with over in it. we didn't extreme cases that would even be an officer form. so that is basically a right to start and really go into the risk assessment and seeing what all of us to then defy. how are they mitigated and is enough to be done or not? you 100, let me just follow up with you regarding something you said you're talking about

a harmful content. who gets to decide what is considered harmful content? i mean, i realize that there are a lot of details are still need to be worked out going forward. but, but who's going to be the arbiter on this you look, i mean, one thing is of course, illegal on them does have an easy to identify because as, as i said at to find the law. now if it comes to half the content that is really $40.40 in the for the bathrooms and says to look into what is their, their profile, what is harmful of what can be harmful in terms of their content? so they are like 4 categories that need to be assessed beyond the content. so for example, restrictions to freedoms or harmful content that could for example, effect minus or know this information. you know, so it does, but it really depends. i mean, it's a platform that it is a homework home. it was a different, a risk profile. then for example, an online market place where it's more, maybe about called

a few goods that may not be, let's say, a dangerous and not compliant. you know, so it really depends on the person deserves to see what is the risk profile that i have as a platform. and how do i need to mitigate this was a catalina, i saw you reacting to a lot of what you're hundreds were saying there. so i'm going to let you jump in there, but i also want to ask you the same question. i mean, who gets to ultimately decide what is deemed a harmful content and does that bring up freedom of speech concerns as well? absolutely. so the answer to your question actually is going to determine the success of the dsa, because i completely agree with your hon. and so there are a lot of different areas or different types of content that the d s. a covers. so illegal content, you can look at this also from a very, from a very technical perspective and you can see, okay, is there a provision at national, our european on a level that is going to say, you can't have advertising to words miners under specific age. and if that exists, for instance, if we look at the audio visual media services direct them,

then immediately if type of content is going to be against this provision, it can be deemed in eagle. then we also have the system, this, the, the systemic critics. so if a platform through its architecture, through the fact that it amplifies types of content, that could have an impact on decision making on the well being of users or, and a lot of other aspect such as democracy. touching on what you were mentioning, freedom of expression and also different political advertising a freedom, then it can be a matter of really trying to investigate. and this is where the procedural aspects of the dsa come very much in hand to investigate what exactly are the systemic rests and how can we own them in the main problem. here are the key word here is going to be data access. and i really hope that in the enforcement of the d. s. a and also in the, in implementation. so 1st of all, in the design of the infrastructure that are going to have to implemented, there will be a sufficient, sufficient attention paid to the fact that data shared by platforms is not

necessarily reliable. so we have a little bit of a catch $22.00 situation. we have seen this before when facebook tried to share research data, and we've seen that there were mistakes made. and a lot of research was deemed completely inaccurate because of the fact that facebook data simply was not good. as a catalina, it sounds like what you're describing, you know, is rather complicated as far as, you know, setting up procedures in order to be able to implement this. i mean, do you foresee this going smoothly or do you think this is going to get rather messy? and i am very much depends on also the coordination of all of the stakeholders that have already powers and investigation. so for instance, if you look at the, a national consumer protection authorities, because consumer protection has been a very massive concern. and also for the dsa, you 100 was already mentioning the fact that you can have various types of content . for instance, i call accounting for counter fade goods are sometimes also considered to be

products that platforms need to look at and then remove also from a consumer protection perspective, not just the until and the intellectual property perspective. but the problem here is that it very much depends on how all of these organizations that have a stake in the implementation of the d. a and in the enforcement of prior regulation will come together. if we take, there has been a lot written about the political compromise around the dsa. and for instance, targeted advertising that that actually is meant to target miners. so who is the minor in which country do we have? which standard? who is responsible? is it advertising as a data protection? a lot of authorities nationally need to come into this web of not only substantial rules, but also enforcement to figure out how exactly to divide or to to coordinate the space of the digital market. because otherwise, there will be a cannibalization of it for and thomas from your vantage point,

how do you think tech companies are going to deal with these new regulations? do you expect that these new you regulations are going to face a lot of legal challenges by big tech? well, one could suggest that perhaps the death declarations of victory that have surrounded this political agreement might be a bit premature. in the sense that it seems to me at least that there is a great deal that remains to be seen about how the dsa is enforced. how harmful content as you suggest is, is, is defined and, and how these new rules will be implemented by the, the tech companies. i do find that there is quite a lot of vagueness in, in the new proposed loc as it's not yet fully adopted. and, and it's going to be difficult, i believe, for tech companies to know exactly what they have to do and what they may not

do so. so i think there's a great deal of uncertainty about how this is how this actually pens out. it will require a lot of good faith on the part of everybody involved and we'll see whether that good faith, materializes and thomas just to follow up when you're talking about, you know, this great deal of uncertainty that surrounds is, are you talking specifically about the digital markets act of the digital services act or, or both. i'm talking about both, but it does seem to me and i must say that my areas, antitrust that the digital markets act is the one that i am much more deeply involved in. but it seems to me that the digital services act for almost by design it seems, incorporates a great deal more uncertainty. the digital market sack will also have a great deal of questions surrounding it about what it means and what the company is, who are gatekeepers, have to do what they may not do you want to see how much momentum did the effort to

pass this legislation gain from the fact that there is so much this information out there with regard to the war in ukraine and also that there's so much this information out there when it comes to code 19. yeah, i think the development digital highlights and they also highlight the need to do something and they have influenced a little bit the negotiations in a way that incorporated the crisis mechanism. because one thing is that you have regular complex or regular exchanges and these animals. but another thing is that you have a situation that you cannot preempt, like now the more your crane and to which you need to react a v as a regular electrons than what doing what they are seeing and what they do to mitigate the risk and, and this is why this question is most incorporated now to, to allow these kind of talk conversations and, you know, operation on these issues. but if i me at another point, because you mentioned a question about what is precisely they have to ensure to freedom of expression

because the one thing is to remove another thing as to what over remove. so this is why it was on to terms of use need to be very clearly with understand what you're going to understand, why i call to this if it's true. and they also need to have a means to address in the future to very easily say, i think there's a company. so i think what you want to do here is to give and this is what the market was higher. so i think i also know even said democracy in your letter, do not use this ag due to this question only to performance, but also to governance framework, which governs the way this works. honestly, this is very, very wondered if i can make a lost point to thomas that on the, on, on base it was, or maybe not, you find it out of what this is. roger, now go because it is we for you to prove. i mean, you have nowadays certain number of homes that are not existing that say 10 years ago or 5 years ago or, you know, if you do not know what the next is to 5 to 10 years from now with this,

we need to have laws that are, is a huge proof, the e commerce, direct, the image is 20 years old. so you see a long time. so it needs to be a groove and the cover also. you know, on your much on in future thomas, i saw you nodding along to some of what your harness was saying there looked like you want to react. please go ahead. yeah, i agree completely. that precisely defining, for example, what constitutes harmful conduct is really just not possible. because new kinds of harmful con, con, do contra harmful context tent will arise and it needs to be future proofs. so i don't disagree with a toll with that. but the fact that the, the con, the content of harmful content is so uncertain, is going to require a great deal of good faith on every one side in order to make this work. it seems to me, catalina, you know, the articles that the reporting about,

about what's in the d. s a. a digital services act says that it's going to allow people to be able to choose how content is presented to them. i want to ask you, is it actually going to allow people to, to stop algorithmic profiling. that is set up, you know, to get more engagement or they actually going to be able to opt out of that. so i think that that, that there hasn't even been a lot of public discourse around france. it's targeted advertising and full time, for instance, with an m e p, who really has been speaking about this at length. we what we, what we can already see is that a lot of platforms are already creating parallel recommender systems. so for instance, instagram and twitter even take talk have that right now. there are definitely death, different types of, for instance, for you pages or different types of feeds. and then some of them are based on more perhaps of the time or, or data related factors. and some of them are based on,

for instance, the people who you follow in a platform. so from that perspective, you could argue that already some, there are being some, some changes are already being very visible. now the thing is that one of the major problems that i think the d s a perhaps can start to tackle. but it is so complex that, that we still need a lot of other solutions is the fact that the, the data broker market is very or peak. so do we even have a map of a really understanding which companies are using the type of data that is being collected also by social media platforms? which types of platforms are marketplaces are not using that? how. what is the percentage of the platforms that use that? so all of these questions remain still to be answered because the pace at which the online and the digital economy is developing is incredibly fast. and this is why i completely agree with what your honda was mentioning,

that we need teacher proof regulation. the question is how do we draw the line between not having too little content in context and having too much as thomas was mentioning? because otherwise, sometimes we deal with legal uncertainty even when future regulate future pro regulation is there. and the example that comes to mind as the commercial practices direct and that has been and is still a can very nicely tackled dark patterns, which is another type of a user manipulation that we see very much quoted in the. a a at public discourse around the d essay. but if you look at the definitions in article 5, frances of the cpd, and you see tests that are very, very vague, like an unfairness test. and you still rely, need to rely on a judge to interpret that. and if you don't have clear interpretations for a very specific situation, then the market doesn't know what to do with that. and we see this very clearly with dark patterns, catalina, i also want to ask you for a moment about the another law that the you and acted the data privacy law called

the general data protection regulation. you know, there's been a lot of criticism that it has not been enforced vigorously enough. are you concerned that the same thing might happen with the digital services act? and i definitely see that we're moving into an era of digital enforcement, digital mart monitoring, and also market surveillance. done not only by the data protection authorities, whether at european or national level that are designed and have the mandate to implement and enforce the g d p. r, but also with a lot of other agencies and a lot of other authorities. so i think that enforcement is going to be perhaps that we're going to see more and more enforcement in the future. the, the question that i would like to ask, and also perhaps it for this discussion, but also for other debates is how do we ensure that we have coal here and enforcement across all of these agencies that are stakeholders in the digital market. and that is the $1000000.00 question. you're honest. there are tech

companies who say that these regulations could stifle innovation. what's your reaction to that? if i could just quickly come back to the enforcement because it's very different. if you have a uniform data protection which is enforced, not only the national level, but also regional, for example, in germany as to regions that are jobs offices or if you're set for enforcement. and it comes back to your 1st question that these a will be enforced by the forms, but what department and whose us by the commission and it's the same is true for the d. m avenue to speak about the gate. so, and that is completely different situation and, and i would also like to at one point on the targeting guess what did you say foresees is that you have an option to indeed opt out and say, no, i do not want to be targeted. they want to recommend a system that is not based on target, that you can of course, say it is not very useful. so it is not useful, but it's for the consumer itself was we have to bend for a target of a minus and for, for sensitive data. now, when your question, the point of it is

a is to introduce obligations that converts last. so size matters. if your small company and you actually find it easier, because you don't have all the big debate at the same obligations of the big, the big ones is also one aspect. i mean, it is very important exactly that you lost, that's innovation. that this is exactly what this, what you say, you may, in the way if see that you have the obligations. because then for small ones and the email, for example, gives rights to smaller competitors. for example, use marketplace is to sell the products to have access to that data, which date nowadays to have. so, and it was actually protect the small company at thomas, we have a little less than a minute left. let me just ask you very quickly from your vantage point, is that you have enough manpower to actually be able to monitor and enforce the digital services act and the digital markets act. that was exactly the point i wanted to just raise both of these pieces. legislation together mark

a huge increase in the amount of regulation in the tech tech sphere. and i tend to doubt that there will be sufficient resources deployed by the european commission to be able to effectively enforce. all right, well we have run out of time, so we're going to have to leave the conversation there. thanks so much. all of our guest. johan is market, catalina, go into and thomas vineyard, and thank you for watching. you can see the program again any time visiting our website al 0 dot com. and for further discussion, go to our facebook page. that's facebook dot com, forward slash ha inside story. you can also, during the conversation on twitter handle is at ha, inside story management room in the holding here doha bye for now. ah. as climate change heats up, the planet, one scientist intends to take his back to the ice age to save the permafrost below

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