and a penalty some 3 benchmark eventually gave them a free one that when on the niceness 65, when on aggregate, having already won the spanish lean tie. so real madrid will head to paris on may 28th. i mean to become 3 european champions for full tea time in there. on ogden. ah, this is our desert. these you top stories. ukraine's president has asked the un secretary general to help save ukrainians trapped at the as of styles. steel plant and maria po, russian troops have reportedly entered the facility where ukrainian soldiers and civilians a hold up inside. alicia williams. alicia, today i spoke to you and secretary general antonio gutierrez and we discussed what we have already achieved and what is still necessary to do to save maria pole and the defenders of mary pulse city. there was not a single day that i and my team wouldn't do this,

and i am grateful to everybody who helps. yeah. european union has urged member states to ban russian oil imports as part of his latest sanctions related to the war and ukraine. a block one set done in stages, but several countries are pushing back. the u. s. federal reserve has raised a key interest rate. i half a percentage point and hopes move or reduced to man and lower inflation. it's the biggest increase in more than 20 years. you know, as a nation says the worn ukraine is adding to what it calls a perfect storm of factors that are making hunger worse. globally joint report involving the un swelled feed program, found a 193000000 people in 53 countries. didn't have enough to eat last year. the w h o has warned access to safe abortions is crucial to saving lives and follows the leaking of documents, suggesting that the u. s. supreme court may soon reverse

a landmark abortion ruling. a draft opinion is fault pro, an anti abortion right demonstrations to this east coast. god has recovered 24 more bodies from full boats that sank of its coast 11 days ago. 67 people are now confirmed dead. dozens of people war. so rescued off to trying to reach italy last month. the u. i says it's now equally preparing for both scenarios with and without the ra nuclear deal. the state department warned it's uncertain if there will be a mutual return to compliance with the 2015 agreement between to ron and welt house . on real madrid have staged age domestic late. come back against mid march city to set up a champions league falling with liverpool. la p g. a champions beats sissy 31 and 165 corn aggregate. as i story is next. ah,

sweden and finland said they want to join later. that's despite warnings from moscow, with washers invasion of ukraine. are those countries on the threat? and what will nato membership mean for the nordic region? this is inside story. ah. hello, welcome to the program. i'm adrian finnegan, before the russian invasion of ukraine. nato membership barely featured in political debates in finland and sweden. but moscow's actions and nuclear threats

may have gained the western military alliance to new members. the leaders of both countries have the support of germany, where they recently met chancellor of shots to talk about security in the region. moscow's repeatedly warned of serious consequences if finland or sweden joined the alliance of the decision will be neither easy nor quick if they apply the parliaments of all 30 nato countries. b to approve new members. and that could take time is a by the lender and shy. so if these 2 countries decide that they want to join nato, they can count on our support. the members of the government made that clear here in the talks. and i think that is an important signal. in any case, both countries can always rely on germany support at a godless off nato membership. and in the period before our decision is made on such membership, will the leaders of finland and sweden say the decision will come down to what the

respective parliaments think is in the best security interests. as russia wrongfully play in the right to dictate the choices of others, nato's open door policy is even more important for us all to decide on whether to apply for nato membership or continue on our current path. that is the discussion we are having. now, in our national spoil parliament, whether finance decision willoughby coordinator or not, it will be based on our will to contribute to our common security. my government is right now to get it with all the political parties in the swedish parliament carrying out the supplementary security policy analysis. and this will be presented on may 13 and a miss that we were la. i have very goods and thorough discussions and eliasis within this group. then alice is include in tonight, future international lead defense partnerships for sweden and including

a discussion on nathan. all auctions are on the table. now, before we get to our discussion, let's quickly remind you of what nato actually is. it stands for the north atlantic treaty organization. it's the world's biggest military alliance. it was founded in 1949, partly due to a perceived threat posed by the soviet union during the cold war. but it's not stop expanding since the fall of the block. it's grown from 17 countries in 1990 to 30 today. it pools weapons and resources from its member countries that include battleships, warplanes, missiles, and more than 3000000 personnel. if a nato members attacked the others, consider that an act of violence against them all. the. so let's bring in our guests for the day from moscow were joined by dimitri babich, a political analyst at in else me the internet media project based in moscow from

helsinki and mcnamira is visiting research fellow at the finish institute of international affairs and from brussels. we're joined by international affairs strategist, nicholas white gentlemen, welcome to inside story dimitry. let's start with you. how will russia react? if the 2 countries join nature, it's threatened to deploy nuclear weapons to the baltic border region and color than grad should those threats be taken seriously? well, so far where it made by for me so i will read too much into the basement on the rush is very upset about the possible membership with the nato reminder that during the cold war relations with people and they were actually good. so in fact, this membership will be much of a change board. we've been going to go over

the last year. all of them direct them to be in all of them. russia was the basically almost officially named elaine. there are only 2 or maybe not on the basis. and they all have a chance to do with very quickly. so in a strategically this membership will be more of a change. so i think most of the products from most reach of these, what supposed to happen? i think as we took a call when he took his decision, rick, oh, do you think that's right, the president put to the taken this into account. i mean, how likely is it that sweden and finland will become they? so members in the near future, is there any doubt that they soon will be? well, it looks more and more probable by the date right here. now, i agree

a surprisingly with dimitry in the sense that i don't think it will, it will make a very, very big difference because finland and sweden have been very intensely i cooperating with nato for the past decade or more. what i do crucially, i disagree with dimitry in the sense that these exercises on these drills to which they have been cooperating through. i have been directed against russia, nato, and the, the, the independent defense postures of been on and sweden. i have been defensive and, and defensive up against the russia that has proven itself, ah, evermore evangelist i over the past decade. i'm so that is how things have been, how things are now that boats the sense in finland and sweden is that although

strong there in the independent defense capacity is no longer ah enough of it, of an insurance policy i am considering ah, the very brutal aggression ah, that we are seeing are from russia, ukraine at present, and they need an extra layer of deterrents. ah, and they need to be, ah, never again, alone on nato's i collected the fence, offers them on that option or so it is very, very likely. ah, that both states will apply for nato membership within the next few weeks. and, ah, the ratification process is, is very likely to begin at nato's madrid summit in june. ok to make sure you're giving you a chance to come back on that and remember. but let's bring in nicholas white that in brussels. nicholas, both countries are officially not aligned militarily, other they both as, as we've been hearing,

become nato partners taking passing exercises and exchanging intelligence of both countries now permanently abandoned. that previous stance of strict neutrality. yes, well if you talk to finish in swedish politicians, they will, they will object that they had abandoned this some time ago. the they, they were no longer being equity distances. they had been in the cold war, but that they were very definitely collaboration with nato, from an external perspective. and they simply won't convert this to internal, to, to being part of the team rather than cheering on the sidelines. but this really goes to the harsh of the ho current conflict. and this began because the, with the war began because russia was unhappy about ukraine distilling self determination and choosing its own path in terms of security, in terms of external alliances. now we see that the lesson, the finland and sweden or drawing is not that they should take russian concerns into account, but that they should make these decisions autonomously themselves. and i think it's

very interesting that the, the major an external o intention of the russian war against you brain has backfired quite spectacularly . okay, dimitri and i don't one of the what to come back on on what you heard. and those 2 answers that let me put it to you that but rushes foreign minister ministry rather the spokes person to the foreign ministry insisted that sweden and finland are being dragged into nato by the us of a well to a certain extent. but so i think this is something that i'm willing to meet the euro exchange, and i think this change and all the wars, they're actually no more you, you know, for many decades the dream will russia, but actually was going euro or neutral peaceful compass. this europe just doesn't exist anymore. i mean switch is no longer and you know, it's

a bank account or joint sanctions against sweden is obviously all been phases. surprisingly, you know, the central ation when they have a meeting. so they are 40 mean in the organization. when they remember, they say that directed, you know, when you have some meetings of natal, this is all about russian press chinese trap. so unfortunately it is easier to find. now you go compet, surprisingly in the previous district order and all in europe asked for reasons why russia basically continued the warning to be frank, the team. well,

no way nickel was with this. busy for him, doors, and so the police were killed. oh, of course it was not the peaceful. sold in 1050. in 2022 president, we're going to my role, but he decided to disagree with you that actually, you know, russia was dependent them that no russia was quite happy with your grand becoming good relation until my dom. that table with 2014 but russia was going to take, the thing was tied to russia. you know, we are not the independent very base was started the same story with the need to exercise in sweden and white. the need in been, was said that these are

a lot of their own, their own defense you again who is feel and again cool with them against the repairs. so you said all that i'm going to defend them. so again, i was always talking. this is sad because of the region should be original and unfortunately it made the membership, it will be a region of it will. it will be a region to walk. ok. oh, and do want to come back on that particularly dimitris assertion that the war in ukraine began in 2014 with what he describes as a violent qu. we can go back longer than that and we, but we have a phrase in english once bitten, twice shy, and we can go back to the war in,

in 2008 in georgia. i'm the efforts of the obama administration after that. and we can go back into nato enlargement. in this effort to extend a liberal democratic peace and prosperity, nato did something very unorthodox in the sense that it had it put in the pledge of no troops, no new eastwards. so essentially, to reassure russia to, to show russia it timed in a way. and it didn't have very strong provisions up against russia. borders, which of course, the baltic states on the polls had been highlighting for many, many years and nato, to, to reassure russia. i stayed on persisting with this, i ride up against or right up until i the illegal annexation of crimea in 2014 and even then the nato readiness action plan on

operational atlantic result. and later on the enhance forward presence. these deployments have been very, very light and scalable and nato has relied for it's the turns on mobilization, keeping most of its troops in the west and only saying that it will call them all call them into the region if the security situation on deteriorates further on russia displays even more aggression. ok, so this idea that nato is, is, is, is the cause of this major build up. but russia are, is fearful of is a red herring. i thought that is featuring in the russian narrative as they attempt to justify their revisionism and their efforts to re consolidate and their sphere of influence,

of former glory in central eastern europe. something that finland and sweden, i do not want to be part of on this is what is on propelling on there efforts towards nato right now. okay. 2 questions for nicholas starting with what will sweden and finland bring to to the alliance? just how, how useful are they to european security o sweden, films, of course, very impressive, military built re establishments certainly on par with any of the decent western european countries. so from that point of view, they bring a very professionalized, well experience force of personnel. and of course they also close the strategic gap around the baltic sea. the geographical dimension is very, very important here that they basically turned the baltic into, into a nato lake,

which it previously was north of. so it's very helpful. can they so for to have them. and so what are the dangers then for the white, a baltic region for estonia, for latvia, for lithuania, ah, the baltic states south of finland, of course, which also border russia. bearing in mind that we've got the, the exclaim of colin and grad sandwiched between poland and an lithuania. all of these countries have been very concerned about the potential for aggression from russia since their independence in 19191991. and all of them, with the exception of sweden and finland, had already made the determination that the best way to preserve that independence was to join nato. as i said earlier, this conflict began because russia did not accept that ukraine was an independent state. it's absolutely clear if you look at what present patients said or of the russian politicians have said, this is about whether countries have the right to choose their own future. finland

and sweden of now decided they will choose their own future and their choosing their future within nato. and russia needs to accept that. that is how the world works. dmitri, russia needs to accept. that's how the world works. the country's deputy foreign minister said that sweden, sweden and finland joining nature would seriously worse than the military situation in the region and lead to the most undesirable consequences. what was meant by that? well, i think nicholas was quite right when he called the warriors and made to a league or whenever you crown her all c. oh i know her. oh, you know, controlled by just one muted you walk. this is all is back. like one woman in by. oh, i see you there, 7 canadian center, the same story here or in fact, oh, the image of sweden and finland in rough is you very, with all the ins. and of course there is a 0 chance or where military solution. why? wonder?

oh, or do you use against ukraine? simply because info at sweden behave much more racially than the corolla, an breezily nationalist, ukrainian regime that established itself by force in vogue, which he so i don't expect for anything. what will happen you granger? ah, but i expect a lot of speed and i would start to walk away local hours. i remind you that every year in sweden there is a part of the wave of the so called russian sellers. ok, there was only one soviet summary that was once ye, all in the, in this week or the what them i know they were, you know, we cover. all right, so you see just one example right now where i'm just going to be a number. let me just throw that to nicholas. very brief or do you want to respond to that? nicholas? i'm to be true. you say so cold. russian submarines are for not russians.

submarines for order from s. you know, it was just, i was, this was just why for person lead, seen the saudi was, there was no, i'm always nearby dentist. there are b like races had to run somewhere and they never really used level better. okay. i don't get bogged out into into a robber about submarines, particularly owen, here in her in helsinki. to what extent is this nature membership bid bid being driven unusually by finland here. that sweden is, is actually being swept along into the alliance because of its eastern neighbors. desire to join. well, i wouldn't say anyone is being swept along. here are these states, nato was a democratic alliance on, and prospective members have to apply for membership. so all states will make their own sovereign decisions based on,

on their strategic calculations. ah, what jess ah, you're right out. been on is at the front runner. so to say are among the 2 states . and things have been, says mich here throughout the spring. i mean, before february 24th, where we're russia launched. it's large scale military a sold ah, it's a legal assault on ukraine. i'm before dot days, only, only a number of weeks before they finish prime minister, santa marine said, i'm not finished. nato membership was very unlikely to happen. i during her tenure, that is what she said. what? because all of russia's brutal aggression. i that is displayed i in ukraine, over the past. i'm number of months. i the finish public. i'm has now flipped. it used to be, i, you know, in the last number of years,

60 percent against i, nato membership are 20 percent for the rest. don't know. now it's more than 60 percent for 20 percent against on the rest. don't know. so there's been a, a reserve sounding reversal in, in favor all nato member ship. i'm driven by rushers aggression, not driven by anything else on finland, on the finished public. i now believe, ah, russia is no longer taking calculated risks. it's. it's taking our major major risks as barack obama reflected on putin's actions in ukraine. holden, as bet the farm on this very, very aggressive. i'm unfair not needs the maximum car, the parents option, and the maximum ah, collective depends option so that it's never been and has quite an impressive right or finding a loan. but it still, that is not a desirable option and been and desires to be never again alone. and that is very

much, ah, a bottom up process that is occurring here in finland right now. and that is what is preparing. i'm the big writer, finish nato membership forward. i'm sorry to cut you short a, but time is, is against us here. a couple of more questions for, for nicholas, what changes nicholas would membership require both countries to make in terms of, of foreign and security policy. it's a good question and the answer is the by and large, these changes have already been made. oh, it will require finland and sweden to align their military policy, their procurement policy or their general stance of engagement in the outside world with the north atlantic council with the north atlantic treaty organization. but the factors, as you mentioned in your introduction, but finland and sweden, i've already been largely participation in the, in they so exercises. so to

a large extent, disintegration has already happened. what we're looking at is the formalization of a relationship, as until now has been provisional, ams, and transactional, and shifting it's to, towards something, this is more fundamental and strategic. okay? and we'll nicholas both countries act in unison regarding nato membership. could you perhaps foresee a situation where, what one joins without the other and, and how long will the ratification process take? i mean, always from ministers on record or saying, oh it's, it's going to take a matter of weeks 2 weeks. he said that she said it's not realistic. yes. first of all, i would not like to tell any fitting that their destiny is linked to sweeten, let alone vice versa. of the 2 processes will proceed independently, but in parallel, it would be the least surprising outcome if the 2 of them end up joining at the same time. but other outcomes are of course possible the ratification process. first of all, everybody really is in favor of this,

so it won't take all that long. having said that, in some countries, there are formalities that simply take a while to get through the presence of croatia. as mentioned that he wants to make the process conditional on a completely different issue. the reform reflection law. in bosnia, i don't think that's just sustainable position, but we'll have to be overcome. i would have thought it's likely take less than a year. i can't really see why it would drive home from much longer than that even in the most convoluted parliamentary systems. ok, gentlemen, there we must leave it. thank you to all of you for being on the program today to me to ravage in moscow and mcmurry in helsinki and of course in brussels. nicholas white. as always, thank you for watching. don't forget, you can see the program again at any time, but just by going to the website at our 0 dot com for further discussion, join us at our facebook page. you can find that at facebook dot com forward slash ha inside story. and of course, you can join the conversation on twitter or handle at ha, inside story from me,

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challenging the world around them. al jazeera select. ah, i marlene said in doha, he, you top stories on al jazeera, ukraine's president has asked the un secretary general to help save the lives of people trapped at a steel plant. and mateo poll russian troops have reportedly entered the as of styles. steel works facility way, ukrainian soldiers and civilians all inside the russian defense minister. you said it will begin a sci fi there for 3 days on thursday. alicia with us today, i spoke to you and secretary general and tony.