wide paws over government agencies tossed to recover as much as $10000000000.00 stolen by his father. during his 20 year rule, florence louis al jazeera manila movement has been restricted in china's capital for the 3rd day. as it tries to contain the spread of covered 19 subway stations and bus routes have shown donica responsive aging, huge numbers of people accusing protests each day. the city of $22000000.00 is trying to avoid a shanghai style for lockdown, which has lasted more than a month. and the brakes are forced to postpone and this is asian games which were to be held nation high. well guys in south it could still go ahead, but the, and the council of asia decided to delay us. ah, i'm convinced with the headlines on al jazeera, there's been an explosion at a hotel in the cuban capital. havana. it appears to have torn through several of

the building floors. the country's president has been at the scene and says it's likely that a gas leak caused the blast. rory nicole is an independent journalist who was at the scene of the incident justified the comforter, which is huge for bill to get the center which is almost exact replica of the capital in the us. on the side. there's just helps them. it's sort of still justice still rising, the whole, the front pretty much the whole of the from says collapse. there is a police or medical still arising and i believe the hospitals have cleared the decks, not preparing the people. i don't know if that means they expect more casualties. have so far been reported. new humanitarian car doors are once again been opened to get more people out of ukraine's besieged city of mario poll. ukrainian officials say russia is still attacking the steel works where civilians remain trapped among

ukrainian soldiers. bullies in israel, a searching for 2 men suspected of a stabbing attack in the central city of a lot. the release pictures of the pair. 3 people were killed and several others injured at thursday to attack. counting so far off to northern ireland selection shows the nationalist party sion fame is ahead. projections showed it would be the biggest party leaving behind the democratic unionist party. in vain was once the political wing of the i re, which fought against british rule in local elections in britain. forest. johnson's conservatives have suffered losses, but the opposition labor body has failed to make major gains. the conservative party lost control of several areas of london, or labor and the liberal democrats, one power in some counties. those of the headlines, the news will continue here on al jazeera. i'd after the latest episode of inside story cso by. ah,

a sobering measure. the true toll of the co, the 19 pandemic. the world health organization says that nearly 15000000 people died in the 1st 2 years. it's more than doubled. all countries were reporting. so what lessons should be learned? this is inside story. ah, ah, ah, hello, welcome to the program. i'm adrian finnegan. it is the most defining health crisis of our times, no matter where we are in the world. the corona virus pandemic has changed the way we live. and now for the 1st time, we know more people died because of it,

than governments were reporting on thursday, the world health organization revealed its 1st most comprehensive estimate. it said that 14900000 people died in the 1st 24 months of the pandemic. that's mostly as a direct result of the virus itself. and because people couldn't get proper treatment, since hospitals were overwhelmed, the w h o says that it's a wake up call for all countries to invest in data and their health care systems to make them or resilience to crises. naida is indeed the life blood of public health . gov. it has illuminated a staggering, told already that we have seen 14900000 excess deaths, but it has also illuminated a staggering data gaps in countries. too much is unknown and there is too much delays in getting life and death information. so let's take a closer look at that world health organization data. the line in orange here is

the number of excess deaths between january 2020 and december 2021. the w h o defines excess deaths as the difference between actual number of deaths and deaths that were expected based on data from previous years. if there had been no pandemic on the graph, below is the official number of cove at 19 deaths during that time. 80 percent of those excess deaths were in 20 countries including india, brazil, iran, the philippines, south africa, the u. k. and the u. s. and when we look at gender, more men died than women. ah. so to discuss all of this, joining us our guests for to day from barf in the u. k. dr. but i've been carrier, a senior clinical lecturer at the university of exeter medical school from rabbits as it in every he, me, professor of medical biotechnology at the report. medical school and director of

med biotech. and in ponder cherry india, t under arman, a health systems expert, former professor and head of the school of health systems studies at the tartar institute of social sciences in one by a warm welcome to you all dr. pike county. let's start with you 1st. what do you make of these world health organization figures? are you at all surprised? no, i'm not surprised at all. and i would go further and to say in, in some countries, this is most probably also a under estimate. because lot all countries have robust monitoring systems for illness morbidity, mortality, that's, that's a differentiation. and one more thing that we are not including in this figures is our debts brought forward as a result of body damage following a co infection. what i'm referring to is the consequences of long coded,

so it is disappointing, it is watering, and it is a, it is, in my opinion, a underestimate of the actual number of deaths for the figure of a pay pales or the comparison boat compared to the spanish flu outbreak of 1918 doesn't it? indeed, but what, what we don't know is how long this co it pandemic is going to continue. where as the spanish pond that makes spanish flu pandemic was for defined shorter period. so we're not out of the woods with cove it. and furthermore, that was more than a 100 years ago when facilities medical facilities, vaccines and chiropractics did not exist. so on that front of course, science as prevailed and done a fantastic job with bringing the vaccines out and saving a lot of lives. having said that, it is upsetting and disappointing that many people,

especially in low income countries, in india, pakistan, bangladesh, africa, indonesia. they suffered, and many of them died. professor, ever he, me a dr. franco? he had touched upon it. there. perhaps you can give us a more for some exploration why we're original coupled with figures. so off the mark, why is it so difficult to get accurate? death figures. why i think it's a, it's a good question, adrian, but i think it coming back to africa. i think it's very the, the monitoring system and the reporting system is really not that efficient. so when we look at south africa and we are talking about 1300000000 person, we are seeing that almost 3 or 4 country. it has a really good reporting. and just to give you an idea to bother. so to show the difference, when you compare 2 countries, northern african countries, when you compare america, judge area with the same number of the population, you get like a double, actually death in rural co that in algeria. worse than that,

when you come back to nisha to egypt, egypt with 10 times more of the size of the population. more than trees. yeah. you have 28000 that think. yeah. and you have around $24.00, thousands, nothing. agents. i think the reporting system is not there and actually some countries i'm going to have to say it frankly, rather to give the right numbers, they prefer to put the numbers in that the rug and say that is no coffee. but they think when you look at the numbers of the w show, i think it's are quite to laura sing because if you take just the parts of the war, india and china and africa, we got to talking about the huff size of the population of the word and the numbers are not that i think, and they think it's really to question this number. why for a simple reason, because we'll be confronting more and more, maybe pandemic coming sooner and dog. i think we are not out of the call with an answer. and responding to the curb, it needs 3 things. need to be lots of transparency and anticipation

and a participant approach for talking about the person to person. actually a notice in or given notice that they are infected or did a death in their place. and the other think the medical corpse actually should be involved in that reporting. all right, let's go to, to ponder cherry than a professor again, don't depend collier touched upon it in his, his 1st answer. the figures tell us nothing about those who are still suffering due to the virus with long cove it and may succumb to their symptoms at some point in the future or, or about the number of people who are going to die due to long term health complications long after the original infection? yes. so, yes, the dollar strategy reasons why do this bigger would be an interesting. but one

must, you know, in the home it was all the letter. it will be over the desk. and the student is ladia. best meant that without a baby it wasn't in practice, reported a bullying. now what via mission is it says the home and then you see there is no longer will no longer live with or would it be? absolutely sure other is the the good sir. oh or a man was i think it all to best re enacted in that it was

so here linda long use other you do the video business. we know this from journalist that works. people died on they will not be you know where it was. oh hill, and you can only do one of, you know, city oregon with that one is yeah, i why and it's not, it's only the light. i know that i did assume it because i know that there's been a lot of controversy there in india because of these, these world whole hell for graduation because we'll come to that controversy in just a moment. but 1st of all, a dr. franco area the pandemic, of course, is still with us. people are still dying due to the disease, and yet in some parts of the world, life appears to be very much back to normal. i mean, when we,

we can't continue with a permanent sense of, of crisis hanging over it. us, is it wrong to go back to normal behaviors when, when people are still falling sick? this is a lovely issue that we must address. so before i go into answering your question, i just wanted to say something about the comment made by a colleague from ponder cherry in india, which is the measuring of excess. that if we look at the w h o report, it also articulates that these excess that well most probably covered related and whilst excess, that's our old, that's the point is the key point is these are excess deaths. and those excess that most probably are covered related. now, coming on to you with respect to our, what do we do or do we remain in restrictions or do we drop our god? my answer is as follows. vaccines have been proven to work very well. so the

combination of vaccines plus tara pew takes deployed sensitively and equitably across the world will take us into a better place. so if you recall backwards, initially, the vaccines were produced and only the richer nations got them and the rest of the world got nothing. now, in a fortunate position that we are, we've got enough vaccines for the west to continue it. it's boost to programs and for other low income nations to also give good immunizations. so what we need to do is continue it, immunization, continue it delivering therapy, it takes as well, and t, virals. and that way economically, we can also function rather than being in a permanent state of lockdown. and then the other thing we have to do is watchfulness. we just don't know where this is going. it looks like it is better in

europe at the moment, but then it is our summer period. so what we need to do is continuously monitor continuously watch and look out for variance. and one way to stop reading from arising, immunize the low income countries, which have yet to be immunized. and that way we will all be in a better place, professor. it abraham, it what lessons must government learn from the crisis and these figures? i think that's the big problem actually. because if we don't get the right numbers, it will be really very difficult to prepare the reps response on which lesson to take from the pandemic. actually, even the vaccines and my colleague was talking about the vaccines now in africa, for example, we are not having problems with the having to vaccines in this country. if we cannot, people are not vaccinating themselves. so i think it's a really big issue here. how will get to, to, to, to get people to be aware that the vaccination is the only issue coming back to the question, the lesson, i think the 1st thing that we have to do and people are,

we were talking about the indirect death. people that weren't maternity directly to the corporate, but who lost lots of people with cancer, with diabetes, with other diseases conical diseases because we didn't give them enough care or the good care of during the pandemic. so i think the health system should be really modified and we have to put in place in new health system that can manage actually to confront and respond to the pandemic. but on the other hand, without losing sight, the other people have in correct disease. and doing that, we can do with bay by 2 things, expand and the walls of this hospital without to really expanding them physically. it just been able to do it. and mobilizing the competencies on mobilizing the, the health care people, when we need them and have them to qualification, and the training to do that. i think to do that. it's really something that we have to think about right now. not as a strategy. i was a vision with us actually had procedures and the plans and that the only way that

we can confront beside transparencies. and here i have to say something because i think africa give a really good example because i remember south africa by it's unseen by the army crown actually. and talking about this soon enough. and given the alert to the whole word, actually it was a really good thanks. why the numbers matters. why with the transparency matters. so the professor, as we said a few moments ago, and as we heard in the discussion, india's government objected to the world health organization and death figure saying that it had conveniently chosen to ignore the data that the indian government had submitted. our congress has demanded that across party commission be formed to ascertain the actual number of deaths in india. why are the w h o estimate so controversial there in india in particular, what that one does, it is a very strong. i mean, one of them was not on that one and this

a, that is obviously what the whole issue is on a was a decision. and it was the problem. i mean, and even, but the decision isn't bauman b a, b, b a r b by. so i think our, unless you have a lead on, was who suddenly expect a very find a decision bagley

b a r. and we'll be sure that it is bar b, b, y, or a to b a even otherwise, that's a major issue on that. because some of the issues with also be a they are not the best possible. but under the circumstances i, i think this a really, really, i think it will be dentist. right, dr. thank tanya. then so if india's unhappy at these figures, which it argues sipping arrived at through modeling and assumptions rather than the

figures actually provided by the government, could other countries take issue with the world health organizations methodology. this is coming back to something you were saying earlier on about the the, the actual figure of deaths is probably much higher. but how wide of the mark could the world health organization be given its methodology, which are a big country like india has taken issue with. it's always very difficult for w h o because it has to tried to so carefully with its members. and we know that plato has to keep old apartment happy on the government like india, china, pakistan, bangladesh, are all embarrassed. china, india has been an independent country for over 70 years. but if you look at its investment in its public health infrastructure, it is embarrassing. it is really embarrassing for an upcoming nation. and of course, therefore, the current politicians will want to down play that tragedy of coded,

as well as the tragedy of all those other illnesses that the poor citizens of india suffer. so going forward, i wish i knew what the answer was about, how we can make the w h o stronger, more independent, and less, less subject to influenced by member states. we know, for example, when saws in 2003 broke, that had to work very slowly and carefully with china. and then in 2019 when kobe narrows. similarly that to work where he gingerly and, and smart footed lee politically, diplomatically. and so these are the difficulties that i feel very sorry for that, doubly 8 your has to navigate. dr. back. i just wanna get your opinion here. a controversial question perhaps, to these figures, show that despite much criticism from those whose lives continue to be disrupted, the, the china is perhaps rising. it's, it is pursuit of, of 0 cove. it. well,

china's done well if you look at the figures, because the with, with his 0 covet policy, fewer chinese people officially have dine. my issue is, listen, china, you could make it better for your citizens, because now we've got the vaccines. so why don't you use the pfizer medina astrazeneca brand, for example, which have proven greater efficacy. and the idea is, we don't want you to die. so immunized, immunize, those one rebel groups have the antivirals at the ready, if needed. and then you can also open up rather than incarcerate large numbers of your population. so in answer to your question, do i think china is doing the right thing right now? i think it is a bit too draconian. only china can do what china does, right? i would be more relaxed about how i would do it, which is immunize, and be a little bit more relax,

professor abraham me. what are we to make of the fact that according to the world health organization figures, 53 percent of the deaths occurred in lower to middle income countries, while just 15 percent occurred in high income countries only on only 4 percent in low income countries. why city, it's a, it's amazing that we are having these numbers. actually that's coming back to africa that i know of the most. i think there is some parameters that heads actually the, the african population to survive. the covert, mostly because it's a young population with a strong amenity and i think that's why we have this. so this number is africa beside that. i think the reporting system in africa is not working. that much. it's why we don't know the exact number actually offer people dying or people being affected in africa. the other think. i think that what's happening that the richest

country, i think mostly because they they, they have a re boss reporting system and they were reporting or the death because the other think when you have the middle income, the problems that i think when it was really massive by in and massive debts number did, we couldn't catch up with the numbers and i think why we are not reporting that. and actually without talking about the numbers of the w h o with their problems actually w a sure has a lot of issues with their, with the, the parties would the countries and the governments looking at the numbers given by couple of studies. we have a last that paper that just came out from from kennedy and study. we have the washington institute, i think we are off at least between $4.00 to $6000000.00 death and they think that's a really we have to come for that. if we want to prepare a nicely, any kind of pandemic that will be coming. and i think, and i, we have to say that will not go 400 years before seen

a pandemic. i think it would become so right. unfortunately, unfortunately, yes. send a want to these figures, then tell us a barrier might what we just heard about how we should be pet, be preparing for and tackling any future pandemic in terms of health systems and, and data gathering. i think it can be must be to get and be a set of standards regarding i will actually be seen as a company and event the gap, the financial that needs to be close. you must meet with rich and b isn't too big. sure. that each country is required a because if you are a u r

a b a g, and the all manufacturing processes and the a low with manufactured in char, i these, the status of a the, what a, b i thing it down. so my believe district level or what, what, what even with externally accuracy should be a minimum standard that needs to be is empty. i agree. yeah. go, well, we have that. we don't know what g to build a diffusions the got it. it will ensure that that means that isn't it

so easily, we're definitely diamond is that we do it. what this gentleman it has been fascinating. oh, thank you for giving us your time today for being with us on the inside story, but at pan cardia as it in abraham me and te sunday rahman and thank you to for watching. don't forget, you can see the program again at any time by going to our website at al jazeera dot com for further discussion on this topic. go to our facebook page. that's at facebook dot com, forward slash ha inside story. and you can join the conversation on twitter handle at ha, inside story for me, adrian finnegan and whole team. here though, thanks for watching. see again, but ah,

a short films and inspiration, ah, personal stories of 3 young women, challenging the world around them. ah, al jazeera, select investigative journalism, my role in this by tied the information about global experts and discussion the pandemic didn't create all of these problems. it showed us our true color voices

from different corners. we don't need to sensationalize how we fail these stories. what journalists do best is look at the heart of the story. programs that open your eyes to an alternative view of the world today. oh no, just dara, palm county, because the you raises the stakes of the fact a little russian energy bought up. what? because the rural hits up to yeah, hi, but it's prudent war against fractions really watching netflix subscriber's dip for the 1st part of the decade. of view of still watching, challenging the cost on al jazeera ah al jazeera, with all how and why did it become so obsessed? with this law, we were giving them a tool to hold corrupt individuals and human rights abusers accountable. they're

gonna rip this deal apart if they take the white house of 2025. what is the world hearing what we're talking about by american today? you'll, we take on us politics and society. that's the bottom line. ah, this is al jazeera. ah. hi there. i'm kim vanelle. this is the news outlaw from dub, coming up in the next hour. 8 people have died in at least 30 have been injured in an explosion that a 5 star hotel in cuba is capital nevada. the company's president said, a gas leak is suspected ukraine says around $500.00 civilians have been freed from the mario pulse deal works $200.00.