that africa massage the slope. great. 4 though it came from, from the western sudan, with amazon, google, i been in school, i read it a recipe. william says his ancestors were enslaved in west africa. he plans to take it dna test to learn more. and he hopes the new museum and his new life in ghana will help him to rediscover and celebrate his families route. malcolm web al jazeera. ah, let's get a recap of your top stories and out as era. the un says it's scrambling to rescue more people trapped in the besiege as of stole steel plant and mary poll civilians evacuated on friday have arrived at a camp in the russian control village of bessy. many ukraine says it's his, a russian war ship and the black sea which has burst into flames. if the strike on

the mackerel forgets is confirmed, it would be a 2nd major naval loss for russia. its flagship moscow vessel with sunken april pentagon spokesman john kirby could not confound the strike on the ship. nor would he say whether the action was the result of us intelligence. we provide them what we believe to be relevant and timely information about russian units that call allow them to adjust and execute 3rd, their self defense to the best of their ability, the kind of intelligence that we provide them. it's legitimate, it's lawful and it's limited. and i would also add, and this is not an important point. we are not the only sole source of intelligence and information to the ukrainians. they get intelligence from other nations as well . we don't get heads up about their day to day operations, nor, nor do we expect to mean that they're, they're not active fight. sir lang as president has declared a state of emergency for a 2nd time in 5 weeks,

as his government faces escalating protests. and he sees tear gas and water cannon to dispel students attempting to storm the parliament. the u. s. says north korea could be preparing to conduct a nuclear test as early as this month believes young young will use the poor geary underground sites. is asian people have died in explosion, not a 5 star hotel that was being renovated in havana. president miguel diaz canal says the blast of the hotel saratoga was most likely caused by ghastly counting so far. after northern ireland selection shows, the nationalist partition vein is ahead, projection showed it would be the biggest party leaving behind the democratic union . as you headlines nice continues here up to inside. ah,

a sobering measure of the true tall of the coded. 19 pandemic. the world health organization says that really 15000000 people died in the 1st 2 years. it's more than doubled. all countries were reporting. so what lessons should be learned? this is inside story. ah, ah, hello, welcome to the program. i'm adrian finnegan. it is the most defining health crisis of our times, no matter where we are in the world. the corona virus pandemic has changed the way we live. and now for the 1st time,

we know more people died because of it. the governments were reporting on thursday . the world health organization revealed its 1st most comprehensive estimate. it said that 14900000 people died in the 1st 24 months of the pandemic. that's mostly as a direct result of the virus itself. and because people couldn't get proper treatment, since hospitals were overwhelmed, the w h o says that it's a wake up call for all countries to invest in data and their health care systems to make them or resilience to crises. data is indeed the life blood of public health cove. it has illuminated a staggering, told already that we have seen 14900000 excess deaths, but it has also illuminated as staggering data. gaps in countries, too much is unknown and there is too much delays in getting life and death information. so let's take a closer look up at world health organization data. the line in orange here is the

number of excess deaths between january 2020 and december 2021. the w h o defines excess deaths as the difference between actual number of deaths and deaths that were expected based on data from previous years. if there had been no pandemic on the graph, below is the official number of cove at 19 deaths during that time. 80 percent of those excess deaths were in 20 countries, including india, brazil, iran, the philippines, south africa, the u. k. and the u. s. and when we look at gender, more men died than women. ah. so to discuss all of this, joining us our guests for today from barf in the u. k. doctor, but up on carrier, a senior clinical lecturer at the university of exeter medical school from robert as it in abraham, a professor of medical biotechnology at the report. medical school and director of

med biotech. and in ponder cherry india t under armin a health systems expert, former professor and head of the school of health systems studies at the tartar institute of social sciences in one by a warm welcome to you all are dr. glenn county. let's start with you 1st. what do you make of these world health organization figures? are you at all surprised? no, i'm not surprised at all. and i would go further and to say it in some countries, this is most probably also a under estimate because lot all countries have robust monitoring systems for illness morbidity, mortality. that, that's the differentiation. and one more thing that we are not including in this figures is dex brought forward as a result of body damage following a cohen infection. what i'm referring to is the consequences of long coded. so it

is disappointing. it is watering, and it is a, it is, in my opinion, a underestimate of the actual number of deaths for the figure of a pe pales or the comparison boat compared to the spanish flu outbreak of 1918 doesn't it? indeed, but what, what we don't know is how long this co it pandemic is going to continue. where as the spanish pan that makes spanish flu pandemic was for a defined shorter period. so we're not out of the woods with cove it. and furthermore, that was more than a 100 years ago when facilities medical facilities, vaccines, and title predicts did not exist. so on that front, of course, science as prevail and done a fantastic job with bringing the vaccines out and saving a lot of lives. having said that, it is upsetting and disappointing that many people,

especially in low income countries, in india, pakistan, bangladesh, africa, indonesia, they suffered, and many of them died professor, ever he, me a doctor prank audio touched upon it. there. perhaps you can give us a more for some exploration why we're original couple of triggers. so off the mark, why is it so difficult to get accurate? death figures? why? i think it's a, it's a good question, adrian. but i think it coming back to africa. i think it's very the, the monitoring system and the reporting system is really not that efficient. so when we look at up africa, we are talking about 1300000000 person we are seeing that's almost 3 or 4 country. it has a really good reporting and just to give you an idea to bonham. so to show the difference when you compared to countries, northern african countries. when you compare america, judge area with the same number of the population, you get like a double, actually death in rural co that in algeria. worse than that,

when you compare to nisha to egypt, egypt with 10 times more of the size of the population. more than trees. yeah. you have 28000 that think. yeah. and you have around 24000 in asia. i think the reporting system is not there and actually some countries i'm going to have to say it's frankly a rather to give the right numbers. they prefer to put the numbers in that the rug and say there is no coffee. but they think when you look at the numbers of the w show, i think it's are quite to laura sing because if you take just the parts of the war, india and china and africa, we got to talking about the huff size of the population of the word and the numbers are not that i think, and they think it's really to question this number. why for a simple reason because would be confronting more and more, maybe pandemic coming sooner and dog. i think we are not out of the call with an answer. and responding to the curb, it needs 3 things. need to be lots of transparency and anticipation

and participative approach for talking about the person to person. actually a notice in or given notice that they are infected or did a death in their place. and the other, think the medical corpse actually should be involved in that reporting. all right, let's go to ponder cherry than under a profess, again. dr. peculiar touched upon it in his, his 1st answer. the figures tell us nothing about those who are still suffering due to the virus with long cove it and may succumb to their symptoms at some point in the future or, or about the number of people who are going to die due to long term health complications. long after the original infection. yes. so yes, the last battle reasons why you this figure will be an interesting but one

must, you know, in the dome it was all the letter. it will only be understood and the radio on best men there without a baby. it wasn't as important as an organ thinking. now what we're measuring is it says the old one, and then you see there is no longer will no longer live with or would it be absolutely sure is either it includes, oh or like, this is what i think it all doing best reenacted invalid. what was the need?

so here in the long it use other huge you do your business. we know this from journalist that works. people died on. they will not be, you know, where it was. oh, hill. and you can only do one of, you know, city oregon with i think that one is. yeah. and it's not, it's only the lighter. i know that i did assume it because i know that there's been a lot of controversy there in india because of these things world whole hell for graduation because we'll come to that control the see it in just a moment. but 1st of all a dr. pin korea, the pandemic, of course, is still with us. people are still dying due to the disease and yet in some parts of the world, life appears to be very much back to normal. i mean, when we,

we can't continue with a permanent sense of, of crisis hanging over it. us, is it wrong to go back to normal behaviors when, when people are still falling sick? this is a lovely issue that we must address. so before i going to answer your question, i just wanted to say something about the comment made by a colleague from ponder cherry in india, which is the measuring of excess. that if we look at the w h o report, it also articulates that these excess that well most probably covered related and whilst excess, that's our old, that's the point is the key point is these are excess deaths. and those excess that most probably are covered related. now, coming on to you with respect to our, what do we do or do we remain in restrictions or do we draw our god? my answer is as follows. vaccines have been proven to work very well. so the

combination of vaccines plus parapet ticks deployed sensitively and equitably across the world will take us into a better place. so if you recall backwards, initially, the vaccines were produced and only the richer nations got them and the rest of the world got nothing. now, in a fortunate position that we are, we've got enough vaccines for the west to continue with its booster programs and for other low income nations to also give good immunizations. so what we need to do is continue it, immunization, continue it delivering therapy, it takes as well, anti virals. and that way economically, we can also function rather than being in a permanent state of lockdown. and then the other thing we have to do is watchfulness. we just don't know where this is going, it looks like it is better in europe at the moment,

but then it is our summer period. so what we need to do is continuously monitor continuously watch and look out for variance. and one way to stop reading from arising, immunize the low income countries, which have yet to be immunized. and that way we will all be in a better place. professor abraham. it, what lessons must government learn from the crisis and these figures? i think that's the big problem actually, because if we don't get the right members, it will be really very difficult to prepare the reps response on which listened to take from the pandemic. actually, even the vaccines and my colleague was talking about the vaccines now in africa. for example, we are not having problems with the having to vaccines in this country. if we cannot, people are not vaccinating themselves. so i think it's a really big issue here. how will get to, to, to, to get people to be aware that the vaccination is the only issue coming back to a question the lesson, i think the 1st thing that we have to do and people are,

we were talking about the end direct death. people that weren't maternity directly to the coffee, but who lost lots of people with cancer, with diabetes, with other diseases conical diseases because we didn't give them enough care or the good care of during the pandemic. so i think the health system should be really more defined and we have to put in place a new health system that can manage actually to confront and respond to the pandemic. but on the other hand, without losing sight, the other people have in career disease. and doing that, we can do with b by 2 things, expand and the walls of this hospital without really expanding them physically. it just been able to do it. and mobilizing the competencies on mobilizing the, the, the health care people, when we need them and have them to qualification. and the training to do that. i think to do that. it's really something that we have to think about right now. not as a strategy. i was a vision but as actually as procedures and the plans and that the only way that we

can confront beside transparencies. and here i have to say something because i think africa give a really good example because i remember south africa by it's unseen by the army current actually. and talking about this soon enough. and given the earth to the whole word, actually it was a really good thanks. why the numbers matters. why with the transparency matters. so the professor, as we said a few moments ago, and as we heard in the discussion, india's government objected to the world health organization and death figure saying that it had conveniently chosen to ignore the data that the indian government had submitted. our congress has demanded that across party commission be formed to ascertain the actual number of deaths in india. why are the w h o estimate so controversial there in india in particular, what this one does, it is a very strong i was not

on that one. and this a, that is obviously but the whole issue is on a, was a decision is not. and it's out of the was the problem. i mean, and even, but the decision isn't a b, a r b by. so i think our, unless you have a lead on, was a very find a decision bagley

b a r, and we'll be sure that it is not being b, y, or a to b. there's an issue of a even otherwise that's a major issue on that. some of the issues we want to leave that also be a they are not the best possible, but under the circumstances i, i think this a really, really i think that will be right. dr. thanks, tony. then so, if india's unhappy at these figures, which it argues have been arrived at through modeling and assumptions rather than

the figures actually provided by the government. could other countries take issue with the world health organizations methodology? this is coming back to something you were saying earlier on about the the, the actual figure of deaths is probably much higher. but how wide of the mark could the world health organization be given its methodology, which are a big country like india has taken issue with. it's always very difficult for w h o because it has to tried to so carefully with its members. and we know that plato has to keep old apartment happy on their governments like india, china, pakistan, bangladesh, are all embarrassed china, india has been an independent country for over 70 years. but if you look at its investment in its public health infrastructure, it is embarrassing. it is really embarrassing for an upcoming nation. and of course, therefore, the current politicians will want to downplay the tragedy of co id,

as well as the tragedy of all those other illnesses that the poor citizens of india suffer. so going forward, i wish i knew what the answer was about, how we can make the w h o stronger, more independent, and less, less subject to influenced by member states. we know, for example, when saws in 2003 broke, that had to work very slowly and carefully with china. and then in 2019 when kobe narrows. similarly that to work where he gingerly and, and smart footed lee politically, diplomatically. and so these are the difficulties that i feel very sorry for that, doubly 8 your has to navigate dr. back. i just wanna get your opinion here. a controversial question perhaps, to these figures, show that despite much criticism from those whose lives continue to be disrupted, the, the china is perhaps rising. it's, it is the pursuit of, of 0 cove. it, well,

china's done well if you look at the figures, because the with, with his 0 covet policy, fewer chinese people officially have dine. my issue is, listen, china. you could make it better for your citizens, because now we've got the vaccines. so why don't you use the pfizer medina astrazeneca brands, for example, which how bruin greater efficacy. and the idea is, we don't want you to die. so immunize, immunized those one rouble groups have the antivirus at the ready if needed. and then you can also open up rather than incarcerate large numbers of your population . so in answer to your question, do i think china is doing the right thing right now? i think it is a bit too draconian. only china can do what china does, right? i would be more relaxed about how i would do it, which is immunize, and be a little bit more relax, professor abraham,

me. what it means to make of the fact that according to the world health organization figures, 53 percent of the deaths occurred in lower to middle income countries, while just 15 percent occurred in high income countries on it, on only 4 percent in low income countries. why city, it's a, it's amazing that we are having this numbers actually that's coming back to it. so africa that i know of the most, i think there is some parameters that heads actually the, the african population to survive. the covert, mostly because it's a young population with a strong amenity and i think that's why we have this numbers in africa. beside that, i think the reporting system in africa is not working. that much. it's why we don't know the exact number actually offer people die in, or people being affected in africa. the other think. i think that what's happening

that the richest country, i think mostly because they they, they have a re boss reporting system and they were reporting or the death because the other think when you have the middle income, the problems that i think when it was really massive by in and massive deaths number did, we couldn't catch up with the numbers and i think why we are, i'm not reporting that. and actually without talking about the members of the w, h o, with their problems, actually w a sure has lots of issues with their, with the, the parties would the countries and the governments looking at the numbers given by couple of studies. we have a last that paper that just came out from, from kennedy and study. we have the washington institute, i think we are off at least between $4.00 to $6000000.00 deaths and they think that's a really we have to comes for that. if we want to prepare a nicely, any kind of pandemic, that will be coming. and i think, and we have to say that will not go for a 100 years before seen

a pandemic. i think it will become so right, unfortunately, unfortunately, yes. so the want to these figures then tell us a barrier might what we just heard about how we should be pet, be preparing for and tackling any future pandemic in terms of health systems and, and data gathering. i think 83 must be no guarantee a set of standards regarding i oh, actually be seen as a company and in the country that gap the financial that needs to be close, but you must meet with rich and be able to be sure that each country is required a because if you are a u r

a and you need to make sure that the supply chains and the all manufacturing processes and the law with manufactured in char, i, these instructors a really what a well, also be less. i think it benz of brooklyn monthly district level all what what, what is the external? yeah. it should be a minimum standard that needs to be is empty. i agree. yeah. go, well we had that. we don't know what it meant to build a diffusions. the got it it it,

you know that that means that isn't it. so easily we're definitely done is that we get what this gentleman it has been fascinating or thank you for giving us your time today for being with us on the inside story. but at pan cardia as it in abraham, me and t. sondra roman and thank you to for watching. don't forget you can see the program again at any time by going to our website at al jazeera dot com for further discussion on this topic. go to our facebook page, that's at facebook dot com forward slash ha inside story. and you can join the conversation on twitter handle at ha, inside story from me, adrian finnegan and whole team here. and thanks for watching. see again, ah

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