an elvis reform together on american idol. i don't want anybody to see virtual auditors so i think it'll be interesting in 2012, a holographic version of rap start to pack shocker, stunned audiences around the world. he'd been dead for 16 years. killed in a drive by shooting, not your thing. then how about buddy holly killed in a plane crash at the height of his fame or deceased opera star? maria callas. digital versions of the you very much alive. alba will go around the world until 2026. and who knows, it may soon be possible to download your own hologram at home or go to a gig in the met averse, helping the music industry. there's lost millions to the pandemic, piracy and unlicensed streaming. we could big profits from live acts. leave barca out to sierra london. ah,

watching elders here. these are the top new stories. now. iran says it has seized 2 greek oil tankers in the gulf. this comes after a vessel occurring iranian crude. oil was seized of the greek coast to round that says the u. s. pressured grease to take the ship. police in the u. s. state of texas. i've been told they made the wrong decision by waiting an hour to enter the classroom. center of cheese days, mass shooting in new valve offices have been criticized with their response. $900.00 students and 2 teachers died in the shooting. a group of lawyers has announced it will take the case of the killing of al jazeera journalist should be, and i would actually to the international criminal court showing was shot in the head by israeli forces on assignment and occupied west bank earlier this month. the u. n a says more than 70000 people have fled fighting in the democratic republic of congo in recent days. government forces are battling rebels from the m 23 group.

those are the headlines. news continues here in al jazeera. that's after inside story, stayed with us. me. oh no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. this is i don't need to be here with you to look at me when you get to me, i think you can just get a message. can you open that at the home and ya today, and we're going to be, you will be set up an appointment with me. i'm a lot of my mother, just leave me when i don't want

me shooting off the edge of the ah is china the most serious challenge to the international order? the u. s. accuses badging of undermining global security. as the secretary of state unveiled washington strategy to compete with china, but is the criticism justified? this is inside sort ah

hello and welcome to the program. i'm how much am john china poses the most serious long term challenge to the international order? that's the assessment of the u. s. secretary of state antony blake and said that as he unveiled the biden administration strategy to compete with china's rise as a global superpower, he insisted washington doesn't want a new conflict. but he said under president, she, jim ping, the chinese communist party is becoming more repressive at home and more aggressive abroad. blake, and gave examples including territorial disputes in the south china sea and accused beijing of standing with russia on its invasion of ukraine. we don't seek to block china from its role as a major power, nor to stop china or any other country for that matter, from growing their economy or advancing the interest of their people. but we will

defend and straighten the international law agreements. principles in institutions that maintain peace and security, protect the rights of individuals and sovereign nations, and make it possible for all kinds, including the united states and china, to coexist and cooperate. china is the only country with both the intent to reshape the international water. and increasingly, the economic, diplomatic, military, and technological power to do it. beijing's vision would move us away from the universal values that have sustained so much of the world's progress over the past 75 years. china's foreign ministry denounced lincoln's remarks as typical disinformation denigrating beijing. would you agree either for what the international order and international rules have clear definitions? china proposes that all country should uphold the un centered international system . safeguard the international order based on international law. and the basic norm

is governing international relations underpinned by the principal of the un charter . the china is committed to upholding all of this was to accuse china of posing the most serious long term challenge to the international order. if that's not dis information than what is suitable. sure. don't hear all that comes as china's foreign minister is on a 10 day tour of 8 pacific island nations wong. he is expected to push a region wide deal to deepen security and trade cooperation. the u. s. and regional allies like australia say that would fuel tension. president jo biden's, recent comments on taiwan have also angered beijing on tuesday. he said the u. s. would respond militarily. if the island was attacked. the white house later walked back his comments and china's human rights record is undermining relations with western countries. they've repeatedly criticized beijing's crack down on descent and hong kong and alleged abuses in send j. ah. all right,

let's go ahead and bring in our guests from only in maryland, michael, the swain, director of the east asia program at the quincy institute for responsible statecraft. from london. martin jack, author of the book when china rules the world and from bay ging henry, we are one founder of the center for china and globalization thing tank a warm welcome to you all and thanks so much for joining us today on inside story. henry, let me start with you today in this address, secretary of state, blank, and said, put simply, united states in china have to deal with each other for the foreseeable future. that's why this is one of the most complex and consequential relationships of any that we have in the world today. first of all, how does china feel about the relationship with the u. s. and secondly, was china expecting this speech from secretary of se blanket? yes, thank you. i think that the actually suckers with last night was, was kind of expected, but also quite, most of the surprising, wow,

because we were thinking after a binary decision, you know, year and a half that he's on the station. we should be making some progress on this most about what about the relations in the war, but abundance still, you know what we expect that her brain can actually made in china. and the number one, you know, aren't, you know, major rivalry for you as and also post china as a threat to the google system, which i think is not a correct because china is really a charms rise. really good for the global economy and also go on the system just being country over one 3rd of coverage is gross. china gum law street is was one to 30 countries. and john is actually live with all the property. it's the, you know, all these channels. the success is really

a vision but also so i think, you know, you as the child should be on that as a cooperation. but of course we have the competition. now really making it as a rat, make it as a alley and make it as a button 2nd to break and put it, you know, sort of alliance and then compete. and they give vaskins kind of allies to compete . and that is not so what we expect, i think, but of course, emotional bother, you know, climate change and that many other areas jonathan, us do can. i mean, i think we should go more than that. not just, you know, on, on the, on the, on your works, rivalry of each other. michael so so as we heard from secretary of tape lincoln, as he was unveiling washington strategy to compete with china, he was also accusing beijing of undermining global security. from your perspective, is that criticism justified?

well, i think that criticism like, with many criticisms that are leveled by both china and the united states of each other. there is an element of truth and it is inflated and distorted and exaggerated in ways that i think are not healthy. and that really just reinforced the kind of 0, so i'm thinking of both sides increasing. we have towards the other, china is a concern to the united states and to other countries in certain ways. but the biggest concern, as i often tell people, is not specifically china's threat to the west or other countries. it's the threat posed by the kind of interactive worst case in 0, some dynamic that is increasingly coming to the 4 in interactions in relation between china and the united states and some countries of the west. it's that dynamic, it's driven by these kinds of grows large,

simplistic narratives that don't account for the different complex and cross cutting interest of the countries phase. is that kind of narrative, that's really the threat to the goal or martin in this speech that was delivered by secretary of state blank. and he out why washington grievances with b jane. he said the china has become more repressive at home and more aggressive abroad under president. she's in ping. why deliver this speech now? how significant is it and what does it do to this relationship between the u. s. and china? that is already really yet at a record low point. i think this is a speech we've been expecting for some time if it's a bit belated, actually, which is the barton administration setting out its position on china and or so. so i think that in that sense we, we could, we could see coming. and so what, what, what does it suggest?

i think it suggests that or that now the key question for the u. s. government is the relationship with china, which it sees us arrival. and i think that the problem is the subtext of this speech is how does america hold on to its numero uno position in the world, canada sustain that position? and it, the whole burden of the argument is, are in various fields. how does america do this for the tone of it in places is actually i think quite a welcome, particularly in the back end of the speech where he is a bring can suggest areas where they can cooperate. but really, the, the heart of it is about, ah, china's challenge to the position of the united states. i just like to endorse one

point henry made, which is that, you know, this is a, this is a caricature actually, of china's relationship with the international system. because everything ever since juncture pain, china has, are absolutely committed itself to the international system seeking in the 1st in the join it. and when it is joined, it has been a very strong proponent of it and has always changed in a, in a very reasonable way that it's been ok, great, great beneficiary of it. so this is really not an accurate presentation of the situation. what i would add to that though is the of course, let's be realistic about this, that when you get the rise of a country, the size of china and the speed with that transition transformation has taken place . it is bound to change the world in profound ways and no one can do anything about

that. that's not. that is a reality. that's a historic, the great historic trend of our time. and it will continue into the future. henry, one of the ways in which this of speech is being interpreted is that the u. s. is essentially saying that while we want china to, to rise, we also want to make sure that china is doing so within the parameters that the u. s. has, has said, and if we could extrapolate that a little bit more than one example would be, you know, china has invested heavily in the asia pacific region. whereas western nations haven't been investing as heavily does china see it as arrogant that other countries are saying they don't want china encroaching on those territories or the or that other countries are saying? we want to see china do well, but only if it conforms to our standards of what they should be doing. well, i think he probably reflect that. that's. that's correct. i'm the one that actually liar. you rely to actually the real situation on it. all those don't the members of a framework that you had just recruited,

and most of them are neighbors of china. and most of them, man in the matter on them, a lot of china channel is there longer stream monitors. so how can you come out of a group? i mean, other words i can really say, hey, look guys, let's get together and then not allow the biggest or, you know, kind of in the region. be part of it just like it was you know, us use so you know how barnes didn't design fee, where is also have that similar function but then challenge them. that's what was it. let's john it, let's work together and the us back all of that. so these are, you know, how long i you can go, i don't know. what i'm saying is that if that has been awarded, build up all those, the security me to realizes and drive on every country really budget little level nato expansion. we have 15 my we have us south korea time of john 8 on sundays.

we're, we have on coast of books on nuclear summary. we have a form. so, so we're trying, i think it's great, you know, we should pursue this economic organization or about on row, you know, and the i, c, p, the logic rental agreement, c, b, the part, you know, i, you know, good china, you're getting the message, the treaty and john, african corporations don't lead to more economical. ringback you know, corporation if you are still not willing to, but not really trying to build up with circles and then, you know, preventing of blocking certain countries like china, which is already the largest in the region, handles the rising copper, taking over us over to your side michael, we know that the u. s. has not been happy with china's stands when it comes to

russia's invasion of ukraine. how much does china's reaction to that invasion, and how much does china's close relationship to russia play into all of this? well, i think that the ukraine war and russia's attack on crane has reinforced the notion that the framing of the global order today should be democracy versus authoritarianism. because here we have an examples of, of an aggressive authoritarian state threatening a democratic or quiz or democratic stage. and that this is just harming are things to com. and so people then look at china and say, well, china is an authoritarian state to tie, was a democracy and trying to has designs on taiwan. so trying to attack taiwan, just like russia, ukraine. so you get this deeper the sense of this of alarming threat

hose by these types of states. when in fact the calculations the, the stakes involved, the interests involved in these 2 cases are quite different. and it is a gross simplification and a distortion of the reality to simply apply what's going on in ukraine to what the chinese can do today to taiwan. now, it has, of course, in some ways, reinforced the image of china and russia being aligned with each other, which they are in certain respects. china has not come out and full throated li, endorsed the western and nato position about the nature of the war. even though china, very much opposes invasions of sovereign countries by other countries. and china, however, does not want to openly reject russia. but it does not also want to

come out and fully endorse what russia has done, support russia, and try to prevent the west from pressuring russia. henry michael, they're brought up a taiwan. of course, this is playing a role right now when it comes to the u. s is relationship with china, you had president biden. i, in his recent comments on taiwan. those comments angered beijing on tuesday. you said that the u. s. would respond militarily, if the island was attacked, the white house later walked back those comments. but how much has that upset paging? well, i think a might have been talking on quite a few times. and every time friend of mine is, you know, we, we respect china on the 6th just against china. we were really, we were a big by one china policy, but every time that's why he's on to other people. he sounds different. so,

so that's really, you know, made china kind of difficult to understand. but also i think that your great thing is really serviceable by to the people of all the hello. well, the nato, us, ross, you because you see why one, sorry, d and terms are in term. it is why that's really good because national condemnation and criticism, i mean highways recognized by 16070 countries of china. that's the conditional is done. the diplomatic ties was done is paulo john. so john national sovereignty and territories that we should use that same as you claim. so i think china, you know, a hold of principal. ringback us to the hold on because we're not against you praying for those, those really by not i was the tree she recycle already and sounds are in jeopardy of china, which i think, you know, yours is not really doing well on that really cause a lot of asset, those look good uses on the international phone as well. martin, i know the,

you touched on this a little bit in your previous answer, but is what we're hearing currently from the, by the ministration. whether it's this address from secretary of state blinkin, or whether it's a president biden's remarks with regards to taiwan. does that signal a new policy toward china or where are things really more or less the same? i mean, is the stance that the by the ministration is taking toward china right now close to the stance that the trumpet ministration was taking toward china. yes, i think this, the simple answer is yes. ah, it, of course there are certain differences of emphasis and a tone, but basically what's been striking about the burden administration is the extent to which it's more or less inherited. the trump position on china. it's less bombastic . it doesn't exaggerate quite the same way the trunk did, but basically,

i think we were seeing a consent show shift in american politics towards a new ah, a new antagonism towards china. i don't think we're in a new cold warrior, but it certainly go aspects of that. and as michael said earlier on, you know, the danger of this kind of situation is that the, the, the, the more extreme, different situation subject can suggest more extreme views, extreme conflicts and you get this slippage. and i think we witnessed this in a number of ways, so far slippage towards a greater antagonism between the 2 countries. i mean, i think we set, you know, up, i'm afraid to say this, but i think this is going to go on for a long time. and, and in fact, in some ways, one of the interesting things about the state, of course, is not new. but one of the interesting about the statement is the america is sort

of preparing itself for the long hold in relationship to this appendix. for example, the emphasis on the importance of improving american competitors, american economic capacities, it lots of different areas. the truth is that america, you know, savagely neglected these kinds of questions for a long time. and so any long term strategy the america has, i think this has to be at the heart of the matter because basically, you know, china has been taking the u. s to the cleaners when it comes to this kind of thing . over the last 20 years, michael, i saw you nodding along to quite a bit of what martin was saying. it looked like you want to jump in, so please go ahead and make a point good for the trump administration. i think from ministrations policy towards china was chaotic. i'm, you had different messages being said by different people at different times. and then of course, president trump just rifts as the wishes of policy was really not very clear in

many ways, except it did have a heavy, illogical tinge to it and had a very heavy hire trade balance tinge to it was based on very simplistic understanding of global trade, but it also wasn't very strategic and i think we're the, we're, the administration has, all of that approach is they've become more organized. i wouldn't say fully strategic, but they become more organized in that they are looking for coalitions and groups of other countries to strengthen their relations with other countries, allies and others in order to develop a broader kind of strategy for connor in china, of a problem with that is it underneath all this as others have eluted is the assumption and you've seen it and blink and speech that there really isn't much point in engaging the child. we know what the chinese are and that's defined in

very start terms as a threat, almost an existential threat in almost every area. yes, we can cooperate with them on areas where there's a strong common interest, like climate change. when, if you're, if you really 0, some relationship with the chinese of intense confrontational competition. it can but influence greatly areas where you need to cooperate plus plus what this statement, what this outlook suggest is that because you can talk to the chinese because it doesn't serve any purpose because the chinese won't really respond in good faith. you therefore, you can't really engage directly with the chinese truly device editions. you just sort of discount that as a basis for conversation with the chinese and work on trying to shape convert contain the chinese. that's the problem with the bikes, roach. henry michael just touched on something that you mentioned in a, in a previous answer. and then that's the fact that secretary of state blinking did

say in his remarks that there are areas where the 2 country should work together, including climate crisis, including combating coping 19 from your perspective, where are there some other areas that the 2 countries feel they can actually work together constructively right now. yes, i think that i agree with the one just my gosh, that the, the post, the narrative is going on. those countries really are damaging this relation and probably also happened to confidence to court or the future. but i think there's a tremendous amount of so much to collaborate. i mean, addition to what microsoft on climate change and others, i think on the infrastructure, for example, you know, china is the leading country in the last 4 decades. john has transformed the whole country channel. now i have 2 thirds of the go. both the railway turn logics continue. report upholds, now some of them are in china and china of 56000045. just those across the country . and one being smart from users, so that infrastructure not become a competitive. we think that, you know,

a person by the proposed 1.23 infrastructure plan. and you has announced the global gateway 300000000000 roads and put into that. so why not, you know, we want to get to like what i talk to laura summers, you know, less than the one of the banks replenished, we're back, let's get a i, b, r in action. let's get a d, e a t in time out in the mom back. let's go to the wrong bank. we're share the same language to want to go to tackle good. a sort of money will be conscious equally that you won't conscious. oh so absolutely. yeah. no, no, we're going to have to post dynamic and post. you create a new lawsuit planned on the infrastructure to help them that. so let's find something to work together to so that we can really not obsessed with all differences and exactly, and, and then really, you know, brought out all the proposing and that we don't really have to fight on yet. so that's where, thank you. all right, well we have run out of time,

so we're going to have to leave our conversation there today. thank you so much. all of our guests, michael swain, martin, jock and henry. we are one and thank you for watching. you can see the program again. any time by visiting our website, al jazeera dot com, and for further discussion, go to our facebook page. that's facebook dot com, forward slash ha inside story. you can also, during the conversation on twitter handle is at a j inside story. mean how much i'm doing the whole team here, bye for now. ah, a jew on al jazeera as watches invasion to frame the coaches the 100 day mark. we bring you the latest

from on the ground and the wars global in black. and you 3 part series describes the struggle for the return of african art, plundered by colonialism and still housed in europe in museums. today. the g 7 m, nato, hold key summits with the water, ukraine, and the growing global food and the cost of living crises. this much to discuss as the influence of far right. politics grows. the big picture examines francis struggle to live up to its self proclaimed ideals of liberty, equality and fraternity. the men's world help qualifies. i'm male biting opportunity for countries to secure their support for caught our 2020 to june on al jazeera, short films of hope and inspiration. a series of short personal stories that highlight the human triumph against the odds. ah,

al jazeera select on counting the cost by them launches his band, the u. s. economic engagement in asia. well, it towns at china's, in the region, western capital ledge, billions of dollars to ukraine's economy. but is it enough and will africa see a boom from the global scramble to methyl counting the costs out of it? i care about help you with engaging with the rest of the world. we're really didn't take you into a place you might not visit otherwise and feel as if you were there. ah, this is al jazeera ah.