funds travelling than the seats available tickets are being exchanged on the black market for up to $5000.00 and counting. that's several times the monthly earnings of those he lives next to the stud difference is sand. any one of the poorest areas in the country on this bridge, this is the separation between the normal felony i should say with such port neighbourhood such as this one of homicide. and on the other side, the said the false where very there are many major international events, such as the final of the year for chapters they, for example, one thing can be to make tickets more affordable for people of suddenly because we are locals. here we welcome the world, but we can't go inside the said the font not staying locally could make getting to the stadium difficult rail work as a planning a strike to coincide with saturday's final. on the pitch derailing madrid's french striker could be the only way to win 41 years of rail dominance. paul rece out his air at paris. ah,

let's take you through some of the headlines here now. jesse are now at least 31 people have been killed in a stampede and a church in southern nigeria. it happened at a charity event in port harcourt local media report. a large crowd turned up, and some people were crushed when the venue opened. president joe biden is due to visit duval day on sunday, where 21 people were killed as an elementary school shooting early of this week. speaking in delaware biden say the americans need to come together to make the country safer. russia's president says he's willing to discuss ways to ship grains stuck in ukraine's ports. vladimir putin also says russia is ready to increase fertilizer exports is sanction lifted. the un human rights chief says china most not use the judgment concerns about terrorism to justify human rights abuses. michelle about should

a visited the shins yang region where chinese authorities are accused of abuses against weakness. both the headline news continues after inside story. ah, what. what do we need to know that on this is i don't need to be here with you to look at me about how to put them to me . i just need you to whom and ya today. and we're going to give you what we said as well. the industry, the media, me i'm a lot of the book if you're the one i know

i'm not in getting a lot of data ah selling ivory to help conservation that's the fits zimbabwe is making to the world as it tries to support a growing elephant population is unethical, either trade possible or just a slippery slope to more slaughter. this is inside story.

ah hello and welcome to the program. i am hush him abala. zimbabwe has an elephant problem far from being endangered. their numbers have goes totally. specialists is the weld band, either trading now's in bob, we and others won't. that's been lifted, saying it would help protect the animals. we'll bring in august, shortly after this report from the harding showing the wears of a trade blacklisted for decades. then bob way wants this ivory on the market. legally. it's invited ambassadors from around the world to view it's heavily guarded stockpile. believe to be worth $600000000.00. zimbabwe says selling the

tusks would help it pay for better conservation come quicker vision. e, indeed, piggly wiggly river. we plainly inquired, these are, what are you for them, bob? we are to be on all the ongoing fair of our nation, or i would have for global trade. an ivory has been back and since 1989 by sites, an international body that monitors endangered species. officials in zimbabwe say the elephant population has since grown to a 100000 a conservation marvel, but one that's led to environmental destruction and increased attacks on humans. this is success story where we have managed to grow our 11 population from wage was in the seventy's, which is less than 5000 to something which is more than 1000 times more to where we see today that to you. so demonstrate the success. but the success need to be

controlled when what the other countries in southern africa want to be able to sell ivory acquired through natural animal deaths as well as confiscations and calling. they have the support of nations where ivory is popular like china and japan. but many governments, an animal rights organizations believe lifting the ban risks are returned to the slaughter that's decimated many species that a very good danger, you know, toward 80 indigenous species. you know, if i was that it, it into the extinction that he knows that, oh so it fit into the expenses in men about that on the world. others question who would benefit from a ban? the theory behind ceiling, ivory is fine. an elephant died of natural causes, you collect the ivory, you sell it in the and the pricing to go back to local communities. the sad reality is that it just hasn't worked that way. once you have a marketing ivory, you have a high value placed on ivory. it does stimulate coach in that's of you,

born from experience when one off, ivory sales were allowed in the late 19 ninety's. and again in 2008, poaching escalated across africa. lea hardin reporting for inside story ah, less ringing, i guess in hurry to nasty of pato, his books man for those in bob way parks and wildlife management authority in dorking will tell us is conservationist and executive president of the board free foundation. welcome to the program to nash 8. why is selling zimbabwe is talk pile of seized ivory crucial for conservation. i thank you very much. i think what the world needs to understand is, and we have had a successful story in terms of managing out life. what we are seeing is it is out

of wood management at this is for many, many years. and it's not chad. the majority of that i voted doesn't come from my recovery is from which as, but the majority of that i voted, comes from natural mortality. this animal is just that just let you in me the day and we'll see if i 40. 04 for safe keeping. what is important for us to create value from the ivory that we have been keeping for many, many is, is not only for the been, if you don't go thought it, but also for the benefit of the communities would bid the branch of shedding blood, as with blood life, these are the people all will, cute every day by these animals. these are the peoples clubs. i destroyed. these are the people. whoa, whoa, slave rules i destroyed by these animals. so if we sell this ivory, we are not only going to capacity to close

a vision if what we're also going to show that our communities benefit. we are also going to ensure that we are going to boot schools for our people, roads clinics in communities with animals are ones. a vision is inexpensive business. the elephants that we are talking about in zimbabwe, there not an accident of his dad is out of had wick investment into this. and in forward life i've spoken about ty, getting i voted for mine, natural motel it if you're flying, for example, around initial pad. you see a did elephant, you need to ask people to go and collect that. i voted and it takes money to drive vehicles, $400.00 pattern, 50 kilometers where there are no roads to go and pick that a body. you keep it in a stock pal, expecting that it can get something out of the best fuel just went blank that ever they are people or do or those things that people do are learn forced man, our origin patrols,

they need drizzles in it vehicles. we need helicopters just for patrol to make sure that this success story is maintained so it needs money to look after the animal. okay. well, in theory what zimbabwe botswana and many other countries are saying makes perfect sense. they saying that basically they have this talk pile of tasks, ryan, a horse with their want to sell because he's going to generate hundreds of millions of dollars with that money. they would be able to improve the standard for the conservation of the growing elephant population. unfortunately, i fundamentally disagree with all of that. i mean tarley, sympathetic to the authorities in terms of their need to find innovative financing mechanisms to carry out their conservation agenda and also to the communities who desperately need additional support. but it's not going to come

from selling ivory. the figures that have been banded around you yourself have just mentioned a figure of 600000000 less. let's remind ourselves that the sale of 50 tons of ivory in $1099.00 generated just $5000000.00 and the sale of a $102.00 tons of ivory in 2009 generated just 15, $15000000.00 us dollars. and if the reports of the amount of ivory in the symbolic way stockpile a $130.00 tons also are true, they might, were there even a market they, i to realize maybe $20000000.00 which would get consumed in paying off the deficits in the operating costs of december national parks, there is no market. china does not have a domestic ivory market any more. the usa does not have

a domestic ivory market. the e u has just tightened up. it's domestic ivory market guidelines, and the u. k. is about to bring in a virtual ban on the domestic sale of ivory on june the 6th. the only way, the only places that are zimbabwe were it to get the support of the international community, which i honestly will tell you, it won't. the only place it will be able to sell at ivory is to non parties to cities. and there are only about 9 of them, including some very small island states and north korea. i just cannot see this as a viable route, so we must go beyond this discussion and look for better ways of supporting african elephant range states. by the way, the majority of whom are opposed to any international commercial sale of ivory. and we must go beyond those discussions and start looking for ways of innovatively

financing, the conservation of elephants, and the support for local communities, tennessee. so this is the thing, this is a concern that the international community has about allowing the sale of the stockpile of ivory because they say this is just going to lead to another poaching epidemic in the african continent. you know that there's not, there's no evidence to that. and on but then and on said, is been banned since 1975. but it is not bob. are pushing for anal, in fact is on the increase. if we are going to legalize what we have, it means there will be no need for people to illegally said in i voted was the market will be sexually to the market, will be obviously, will meet the market was the i vote is that it will continue to be there for 10, it was the animals, are they grow or they die? we to the the so the market will remain there. what you want to do is make sure

that we sustainably manage our resource. our we sustainably managing id was willing to ensure that we create value, we monetize, so that people see incentives in terms of looking after these animals is, am speaking to you. now we have lost that to 5 lives from genuine in terms ofa, human one left conflict. last year we lost the age in and it's a does it? it's a pain to ask is a good pain to look after this and business. if it is, there is no sign in what you are simply appealing to the international communities . listen to saying, listen to what santa saying in less follow same. let's make decisions based on saying, let's make decisions based on research. let's make decisions based on evidence not to use emotions, not to politicize this issue, and the most, no, no politics, the normal bound to what i simply saying is we must, at least for one's allow us to get value out of that is was that we have if we do that, we also ensure that a community has been issued. let i say these are the people who are queued every

day. these are the people who are losing their lives almost every day. they have nothing to show for the end of the day when people use the motions to make decisions. and by the way, people must to know that africa is not monolithic. what is happening aside in africa is what, what is happening with africa is never got west africa or across the continent. and when we say our listings are overpopulated, his, and with this evidence to that in that evidence must be respected. we that he says we do to such is we find out this is what we have. one get national park, for example, is 14620 spec. let me just when ellison wesley kilometer, we are sitting on more than 5000, which means we have more than doubled the maximum ecological carrying capacity of that pad in the many other paths around the country. and when we say these things, it hit as when you see how much loss we are suffering tim's, of happy dad. i was,

you know, the elephant livid tendons of looking down trees in they're moving around district is, was there overpopulated in there, not only effect on the, on speech the elephant where vouchers which are also facing extinction. and because they can only bridge in a, in a, in a city g 8, it was the elephant. they knocked down trees, missed the bleeding. second, voters affected with giraffes, which also there for some sit. and she's like, he's, yeah, this is, i know that. so it's a disaster waiting to happen. it's not only about the elephant that i took now about into as we think we must be. why did we does it on the big not the slip that we are getting. let's saying, let's follow same well. now, one of the arguments advanced by the advocates of lifting the ban on the ivory trait is that the money generated. although there is no general consensus about the value of that money generated will end up being distributed among the local community which thrives and lives around the national parks in the african

continent. if you do that, you will help them fight against poach. and if you don't do that, they will just rely on poaching to survive themselves. well, this is an argument that's been put forward by those countries that practice what's called community based natural resource management, c, b, n r m. and one of the most recent reports your, my fellow guest talks about evidence, one of the most recent reports looking into the values of community based natural resource management at the site level. in other words, what does it mean for those individuals who live around protected areas? what do they get out of it? and the answer is almost nothing. we're talking about entire communities that benefit at a level of sometimes less than one us dollar per person per year. your

guest also talks about there being no evidence that renewing the international commercial trade, an ivory would lead to a further poaching of elephants. i beg to differ, please look at what happened in tanza near in 2010 to 2014. following the one off sale that took place in 2009 tanza near last 1000 elephants every month, on average for 5 years. they lost 60000 elephants more than 60000 elephants in the 5 years that followed the last time we had a one off sale. a one of commercial sale of ivory. evidence to the other side is look at what's going on in kenya, which had a massive problem with poaching of elephants, which meant that its elephant population was just over 16000 in 1989. today the

elephant population has more than doubled. it is $35000.00 and there is no appetite in kenya for a return to the ivory trade. and indeed there is no commercial trophy hunting of elephants or other species either to nazi you've heard what will has just said, which is basically there is no consensus among african nations about how to move forward. the kenny, as for example, are saying that the problem with lifting the band is that just going to remove the stigma associated with buying ivory. if you do that, you just opened the gate for the smugglers, for the gangsters, for the criminal syndicates took thrive. once again in the african continent, i think i've given you an example of that. i think there's a problem when the world treats africa is, is one really big. why didn't begin to give examples of what his opinions about was? what happened in his, in bible is different from what happens in other countries. we are on our,

on when it comes to looking after our elephant. and we are left to road to the grid, let it, it's a good pain to boast of these numbers, or any more of elephants for no benefit, isn't it? it's important. i've mentioned it earlier that there's no evidence that bending of ivory. well, we'll stop pushing. now to some interface for and i wanted was banned, but this one didn't because for more than 40 years now there's no that if you didn't as a country or is a region we've put mechanisms in place that we fight putting we, we have reduced approaching by more than 80 percent. how did you do that? we have put systems in place to make sure that we monitor our paths. we do learn most men. we do a lot of anti punching. we are working with the judiciary and they did it in the punishment that people get for being position. i voted that ted and you know, and pushing incident on the increase over the last 5 years. and that's the good

with that we had dream. it wasn't working with the balloon for something against the police, where we're going to be judiciary. all my just to appreciate word, life claims, and all this effort that i say it needs it needs to be supported. how do support that? i'll do separate communities, communities which are living at on dis pads when they are not benefiting. that would definitely allow for jazz because then it getting anything but as come do not a little thought. it is what they're not getting anything, but if they drive something, they see the animals isn't economical, but unity darrow's been constructed that shouldn't getting jobs. i think it's, it's not fair. put a village out. what is in beat it or in a while get today what, whoa is not getting even a single cent. and this decision said, it's unfortunate that being made to buy people in some air conditioned office is in london in you some of them, they've never seen an elephant in their life. they don't know how it feels to compete for what with animals they do not use for, for

a head of elephant inventing, you'll, you'll, you'll, you'll, you'll, you'll clubs, and these are levels that are being destroyed. and when they say these things, we are simply saying we are open, we are transparent and is to come in see for themselves. currently a fortnight ago we've had these ambassadors from you look, destro, appreciate what some of them they don't even believe that that kind of histo and people are making this decision some way in geneva somewhere far, far, far away from what is happening. so people must come and see for themselves they make decisions based on evidence was what dressings, what is hipaa one to ground, our elephants out of it. it is important to note that this can to this country that are causing bubble is really expanding with head an increase in terms of human population. more than double fermented, a delivery of what is of all the animal population of also more than doubled for the password in by the can desert. expanding our understand that his source is a good pain legacy. as to look up. that is animal m a good that this was

a plane. i see a point. let me go to where he will grappling with how to move forward when it comes to the lifting of the ban. the sites which of the convention international trade in endangered species in 19992008 tried the one off sales. and they said, this is what this was going to be the unique way to insure a steady supply of stockpiled ivory into the international market. but then there was a divided legacy about what happened next year. and i think if we're going to learn the lessons of history, then we have to learn from those $21.00 off sales, and what happened to elephant subsequently, the great elephant census of 2016 indicates that the number of elephants in africa is now standing at around 400000, down from over 600000 when the 1st band was brought in in 1989. your guest talks about africa not being homogenous and of course is absolutely

right. but what happens in one country if one country is successful in persuading the international community to restart the insurer for ivory trade can have dire consequences for elephant populations across the entire continent. which is why the vast majority, the vast majority of african elephant range states that members of the african elephant coalition are against any further trade. we, we must find a way of moving forward. and there is, you know, there are opportunities. for example, we search carried out by ralph shami of the international monetary fund, indicates that the ecosystem services are provided by an individual elephant in terms of its ability to sequester carbon throughout its life time put a monetary value which august is very keen on, pointing out

a monetary value on that elephant of $1700000.00 across its lifespan. so by keeping that elephant alive, we are able to realize ecosystem services to the value of $1750000.00. it's a process that is in its infancy. but if we can accelerate that, and i believe that there will be a pilot program for this particular initiative happening in west africa later this year. then those communities, those very communities that he talks about, the communities that do desperately need support opportunities, clinics, roads, educational facilities, could benefit by a significant amount of money by keeping their elephants alive and protecting them from poachers, rather than the one off dividend that happens when an elephant is poached to nancy

. there's absolutely no doubt the great effort you you've been doing and the conservationist the engineers have been doing in the african continent. you do understand at the same time that the problem were there. if you, if you allow for this type of ban liftin is just going to pay the way for the illegal ivory to be loaded into the legal market or she's going to create a massive problem. do you think this is going to be the moment for you to think about different ways to be able to generate the cash you be looking forward to have to maintain the work you've been doing? you know, you know, what is important for people to, to, to understand at what we are going through is a country, not what this, this, this, this, that a friends of teaching us is east africa is in babbling yet is unbearable or southern f, as part of africa, what we are simply saying to the international community is listen to science. what is science telling us? let's follow saying. let's not use emotion. let's not use politics. it's important

to note people are giving examples that the fellow guest is talking about. what happened in tanzania, what happened in those things to not have been using bob, we are simply saying treat as differently. one says sheets or doesn't wig. i know and said there's been band since 1975. what is happening? one says is or doesn't work. what to wakes, let's do analysis, individual analysis, individual kind of the challenges that you're going through, what needs to be done as a country individual and primarily as a region is subject. because if you look at the 400000, a remaining elephant, that it means in africa, more than to dissolve them in southern africa. and we are doing something right to make sure that it is we could, this it is or thank is said that people look is said that people don't even have the elephants are making decisions on people do. if elephant some, i mean to me, i always say we would rather take maybe 2000 elephant. we can room freely in london

. you can room freely, new york, you can take them. and so that you know how to use a parent every night. you spent all night loans, roaring, elephant moving around, you know, the next day you want to send your children to school in a pat that we are losing our happy that we are losing our trees. and most of these things, like i said, thank you is our vision is expand the most of our packs, duran is in board, it needs money to do that. unfortunately, we're running out of time. but in the meantime, to nazi fall and will tell us, i really appreciate your is i thank you and thank you to for watching, you can see the program again any time by visiting our website, al jazeera dot com for further discussion. go to our facebook page, facebook dot com, forward slash ha, inside saudi. you can also join the conversation on twitter. i'll hand it is a james i saw from the hash model that i'm the tire team here in doha bye for now.

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