it to the our parts in history and to see what we can do in order to gets back office hours to get justice done. and also to show the world is what however bad the situation is and is always a certain hope for redemption. that researchers have been given for years to investigate the origin of thousands of disputed paintings and returned them to the rightful ears, hoping to complete with some se, should have been done decade to go step. fasten elsie's era in the netherlands. ah, type of quick check of the headlines here on al jazeera, thousands of israeli ultra nationalists of march through occupied east jerusalem for an annual rally, marking israel to legal occupation after the 1967 war. elise fired on palestinians

protesting the march the u. s. president and 1st lady had met relatives of the 19 children and 2 teachers shot dead in texas on tuesday. the justice department is conducting a review of the police response to a shooting after criticism. they acted too slowly left his former rebel. gustavo petro has won the 1st round of columbia's presidential election, setting the stage for a run of next month. you'll faced businessman rodolfo amanda's whose anti corruption platform help fuel a last minute surge in support. for those were the headlines. the news continues here on al jazeera after inside story, but before that we leave you with members of sherwin ugly. the voice of palestine al jazeera media network continues to demand a rapid, independent, and transparent investigation into the killing of its journalist. in the occupied west, but shaheen was shot in the head, buys, ready forces while an assignment in jenny,

me the what the what we need to know that on the fish, i don't need to be here with you to look and i'm just going to put them to me, i just need you to whom and ya today, and we're going to give you what we said as well. they didn't put me in. i'm a lot of them at the book. if you're the one i know, i mean, i mean i

shooting off the edge of the to ah ah, up close, but not close enough for activists. the un human rights chief is accused of failing to press charges on alleged atrocity during her 5th visit. i shall boshoway and this she was in bed to investigate, and beijing denies any wrong doing. so did the trip have any purpose? this is inside. ah.

hello, welcome to the program. i'm kim vanelle. michelle by chalet has been denounced by activists in her field soft, the 1st trip to china by a un human rights chief in 17 years. ashley's tightly controlled visit took her to change young region where the u. s. is labeled the detention of weak muslims and other minorities. as genocide, she admitted being unable to assess the scale of any human rights abuses. but said she disgusted with officials, china denies committing any crimes saying had set up training centers in jeans, young, not detention camps. this is, was not an investigation official. this is by commission and are by the nature of high profile as he did not conducive to the kind of detail methodology. because if they were investigative nature, there was

a petition. all direct discussion with china, small senior leave those on to i'd like to listen to each other. great concern, explore and the way from a regular meaningful interactions in the future or human rights wants executive director kenneth ross describes himself as proudly sanctioned by time government. he posters, his assessment of postulates trip on twitter, said the un writes chief seems to believe she is. so this way says that her quiet back room conversation will convince paging to ease its repression. beijing will gladly talk privately until she is blue in the face. it will respond only to public pressure. china though, says the trip, delivered concrete results and dismissed criticism by those they say make up lies about sions, young under the guise of human rights to the junior life in recent years has been a tendency of politicizing and instrumental lising. the un human rights council.

and other multilateral human rights institutions, china has made it very clear that some western countries while having no self reflection on their own notorious misdeeds, yet driven by political motives, abuse multilateral human right platforms to spread rumors and lies using human rights to interfere and others domestic affairs and recklessly attacking and smearing others, turning multilateral human rights institutions into arenas of naming and shaming and block confrontation. these behaviors have gravely poisoned the atmosphere of the international human rights cooperation and must be taken seriously thoughtful. ah, well let's bring an i guess from washington d. c. rouge on above. the executive director of campaign for week is in beijing is on our tank in the senior international fellow at the titans to, to, to specializes in china affairs. and sophie richardson is the china director at human rights watch and joins us also from washington. a very warm welcome to you

all. thanks for joining us here on inside story. i'd like to not would you rashana boss because as well as being the executive director of campaign for week is you also have family members who have gone missing or been detained, including your sister. i just want to start by asking you to tell us what happened to your sister. what do you know? thank you so much, jim for giving us the opportunity. in september 2018. i participated on the panel in one of the think tanks in washington, d. c. the hudson institute and i spoke against china policies while outlining the faith of my in laws which my husband in i a family my parents in law, in the seventy's and 3 off my husband's sisters and their husbands and brother and his wife, and 14 my husband's nieces and nephews all went missing 10 a summer of 2017, but just 6 days after that panel,

after i expose china's day and cited policies, my own sister dr. gl shannon, but she was taken by the chinese government as we poly ation for my advocacy. and she is a medical doctor, retired medical doctor, she retired that early age due to health reasons, from practicing medicine in 2 weeks from now she will be 60 years old, but i have no idea where she is being held at. i don't know if she is still alive, not only she is being taken as a hostage as a replacement for my activism abroad, but also she is being charged harshly at the beginning when i was well cool about my sister's case and raised her case in media the chinese state on me, the, at the china global highest network accused me for stealing someone else's fall and

spreading lies about my missing sister. dan. we learned on christmas day in 2020, that my sister that, that will show up us was sentenced to 20 years in prison. mother terrorism later charges. and i know there has been kind or they had on political per said. there has been confirmation. i know from beijing about her detention and thank you for sharing that with us. as sophie richardson, i'd like to cross over to you just to give our view is a i sort of wider perspective on everything that's happening in jude chang. what do we actually know is happening there? what has been proven without a shadow of a doubt that the scale of what is happening in engine refers thanks for having me. she, we are a torch, has been documenting serious chinese government human rights violations in that region. since 1997, but in the last 5 years,

we have had to focus on the authorities misuse. it's, it's, it's overreach of using the pretext to terrorism to arbitrarily detain upwards of a 1000000 people wholly outside of any sort of legal proceedings and truly on the basis of their ethnicity and their religion. documented torture. we've documented family separations, cultural persecution enforce disappearances. and you do rise to the level of crimes against humanity. and it is imperative that the international human rights system, particularly in the form of un human rights and mechanisms respond to this, not as the un high commissioner has offered through a working group, but rather through an actual credible investigation with a view towards accountability proceeding must be very clear because any other

government in the world with committing human rights abuses of this scope and this scale, we will be well underway with that project. but because the chinese government has power in the international system, and particularly within the man, we're not any closer to rashawn sister being free. and that's not we will be talking about michelle bush lays trip in a moment. the 1st i'd like to cross over to, i know tang, and so china says that these are camps or re education camps. what does that mean? what does the chinese narrative here? chinese narrative is that there were a series of incidences between basically we're talking hahn's not all the agenda. and there was an incident where han chinese were slaughtered on the subway station downtown by a group of weaker terrors. and they decided that they needed to take things in

order. what they decided was that like in every other part of china, weavers needed to understand chinese and you to be mainstream. they needed to have an educate or many families. they have multiple buys multiple children, which was, you know, useful when you are in agriculture, but a lot of these areas do them our culture. and unfortunately, what happens is when you have a lot of children and there's only so much land, the ability to support those children goes down as you go down i generations. so there was just fear. and that was founded in this kind of radical elements that were saying that they wanted an independent sion john that were joining terrorist organizations and also struggles in the middle east that they did not want that in china. so they said education is key and we have to make sure that the chinese so that they are, they can are portable, they can, they are not, you know, restrict addition drawn where they can speak a local dialect, they really need to,

to be mainstream. so this is what trying to thought was the answer, mr tongue in the international community. and it's been documented by various human rights groups. pretty obvious, according to all of those reports that these are in fact not re education camps, but that there are some serious human rights abuses happening in those camps. and we've heard, you know, people just disappearing. the families don't know where they are. so what has been, china is response to that. well, you know, you, you mentioned that, can't that to do these. this has been established. quite frankly, if you start looking at all the paperwork that's been put together and i have no doubt that human rights watches are collecting data from different sources. some certainly don't have people on the ground there, but you know, it all comes back to the gentleman named a trends in somebody who is thoroughly anti. he's a born again christian. he believes not a big fan of women's rights police and corporal punishment. it's strange that he

would adopt muslims, as he believes under his own, very extreme brand of christianity that they're all going to hell. but i mean, he merges 2018 as an expert and i'm sure john matters and it's through him that you hear all these allegations on. it puts out as there is a 1000000 we years in concentration camps. how we did this, interviewed 8 people. and based on those people who extract laden decided, there was a 1000000, decided that he was also the source that said that all women were being reproductive rights are being terminated forcefully against their wealth. he also was the one who said that she and john cotton was being harvested by this 1000000 person group of people he said were in detention. so, and it's, and surprisingly non surprising. i should say just prior to michelle actually visit, he says he has a treasure trove of documents and pictures,

showing that there are active computers going on in general. it's strange in terms the timing is also strengths that he's a boy, bobby jamestown foundation, which was founded to by the cia to help soviet emigres find a voice and a job in united states. so you know if it just you there because without having mrs. and all the program to defend himself, i should just add that he has said that there is a propaganda smear campaign against him and his, his research. but as i said, when we don't have him on the program, he had to, to defend himself. there has of course, been a lot of other researched on beyond what mr. ends has, has started and which has been built upon that i want to come back. you name, you, can you specify that? well, why don't we call? why don't we cross? why don't you show me where are you? sure. sure. why don't we cross back all this way? we go back to human rights. yeah,

let's go back to human rights watch sophie richardson. if you can tell us a little bit more about the irrefutable evidence. well, i think we can go on for sometime about the thousands of wiggers. we have interviewed over the last 25 years and particularly the hundreds including count survivors. in the recent past, i find some of the comments a little bit bizarre at best. i also want to point out on the topic of reeducation camps and thinking, especially people like dr. go off, were the very well known leader economists, your home tati, who is a scholar. you know, i don't think the doctors and lawyers need reeducation. let's be very clear about what we have documented based on the survivor testimony had happened in these camps, torture, denial of food and medical treatment, sexual violence,

forced study. oh, she didn't think thought and renunciation of faith and culture persecution, if you're using the language, forcing older people to study mandarin and not use weaker. so let's, let's take the loss off this term. re education. this is torture. and these are crimes against humanity. we have documented it directly from the people who actually had experienced it. there is irrefutable evidence. i think maybe we can point, particularly in this discussion to the chinese government documents that have week over the last several years showing other things, the intent to arbitrarily detain people in large scale and particularly with you towards essentially eradicating weaker than other target communities, distinct identities different crimes against you and they were

a serious response as we see in other parts of the world. i thank you for that, mr. you know what a crossover tuition of off because the purpose of this program we want to get on to is talking about the un efforts in china on the un. human rights commission is trip to china were shot abbas. what are your thoughts on michelle bush lays going to china? was it a mistake? as, as the u. s. contends it is a mistake and we have been asking her to meet with us as the victims, families and meet with the former inmates who are in the camps before. but the she refused meeting was us. and with her statement yesterday, at the press conference, it's still not what she said as a collie, and as say, a sister of a victim in a sense, make them being detained. i am offended. we are hurt. as the warriors, beyond the disappointment, what the ashley did is an abandonment of her obligation. it's an

insult to the camp victims and millions of innocent, rigorous were missing and the suffering. and there being sent the mother of slavery and also it's a betrayal of the founding principles of the united nations and the values that she is commanded with upholding. so, and it's a perfect example of the united nation and her office and, and mission and michelle bash lay voluntarily giving up the rights to defend freedom and democracy. so we are calling for her resignation immediately. ok. she mimic tcp is talking points like anti terrorism. and her narrative basically legitimized the genocide perpetrated against that wiggers and her so called prison visit is a uh potemkin stylish sham. and there is overwhelming proof of what's happening as sophie just the said,

with eye witness testimonies and the former victims. and also document after document of the chinese garments only they ada. and it's showing the p c r as in 10 people's republic of china's intent for the genocide and her comments. yes, dacy and custom made was the people's republic of china propaganda machine. okay. i got to, i'd like to, i've got to cross over the back to honest hunger and just to talk a little bit more about michelle bus, let's visit. how do you think china will be, will be viewing this visit? is this a success for them? i know that it's a success. i mean basically they avoid lynching that rose being referred to by russia. yes, i mean that, that, that's always good. i mean, we do, there is a lot of anecdotal testimony by people who are seeking asylum and other countries. they can't exactly say their life back home. it's wonderful they,

they want to put the best loss on it. they can, as they're looking to get to go somewhere else. so what you have here is she's, i guess, the premises that she's somehow and leave with the chinese government. i don't think anybody who knows her or as a head of state who seeing her and action would believe that. but you know, this is an example of somebody who is trying to start a dialogue and then you have these french groups on the side, demanding that she can down and just wholeheartedly endorse their particular views . sophie richardson, michelle bosh. i attitude seems to be that any interaction with the chinese government is better than no interaction. and that, that might pave the way for discussions around human rights policies or what's your, what, what's your take on that? do you, do you think there's any reasoning there for a long time? the reasoning has been daughters with the chinese government but with others. but

there has to be some degree of engagement in order to push for any sort of improvement in the pure abstract. the idea of establishing working groups or dialogues would be fine if there's 2 part answer here. yes, 25 years of those kinds of exercises between various governments, un agencies and others with the chinese government in order to try to improve human rights. have actually your results, they didn't, what they did was gave the chinese government a very easy diplomatic box to check that assured those authorities that they would not be held accountable for human rights violations. but i think that's part of what has, at least as a political matter, paved the way for the thinking that we can see in the government. documents that the chinese government met, atrocity crimes and expect to get away with it. so to how those kinds of conversations now for those to be the outcome. so outcomes of this is it without

also using the important component of an actual investigation based on ample evidence. some of the most theory of human rights crimes committed by chinese authorities against we heard and others across the country would be an enormous mistake. this is precisely the formula that very chinese officials who are responsible for humanity, what they want to not be held accountable. and that is what bass lake cannot be allowed to let happen. okay. not a bus for those left behind. those weak is who are still engines, young. what is life like they are now how much the valence is there, or how people feeling? the chinese government basically criminalized islam and the it's used as a rep and against the instant people they are being treated not just as

a secondary citizens and they have absolutely no any kind of basic survival rights . but they are facing active for speech genocide, just to had thousands of pictures, documents of chinese government's own data, showing how ridiculous china all the claims when they are saying that. 8 those are so called training centers and the for the national security issue. there are faces after phases of young children like 1415 years old teenagers, 73 years old, grandma 60 some years old, 70 some years old. people. what kind of national tread, somebody like that all the grandmas grand bus brought to a country like china. so basically what did the weaker people are leaving? is a bar so liable they are fighting for survival. and yeah,

what that actually did is legit demising the chinese government genocide, and it's going to make less life how they're, what she did is the same that's going to nazi germany do during the early forty's and repeating what hitler was saying about the jewish people in europe, so she should be ashamed of herself and resign immediately if she had a little bit of humanity left in her heart. i know tank and what do you make of the international response to china and to these allegations of what's happening in town? well, in the international response has been mostly on the us side, which is a decided, obviously sean, her groups are saying this are joint in the course by human rights watch. but you know, it's, it's a little bit of a stretch. you have to believe that china is an uncaring country. that doesn't do anything for its people when it's

a fact that one of the few nations razzed on something about poverty has provided upward mobility has provided resources, social services to its people. one of the greatest economic stories out there. so this beating the drum that somehow chinese people are repressed and unhappy. they might be under covered restrictions right now. but, you know, the fact is that, that's not true. and i think anyone who comes there i have been in syndrome last summer. i did not see people crying and being repressed. i made it a point of getting out and going off on my own so that i was not being monitored. so i could see the situation, i saw none of it, in fact, in cash or i couldn't find in a lease, although there are many more cameras or before i was there in 2015. and the hotel where i stayed was bombed about less than

a week after i left. at that time there were armed guards, checkpoints, there were armored vehicles, people with machine guns. but none of that was there when i went back last summer. and quite frankly, the people had changed much more middle class and much more concerned about getting their kids in college. i visited maternity hospital. i wanted to see what was going on there. and i can tell, you know, i was telling them to not have babies with families. we weren't introduced, we literally went up to on and just said, hey, can we talk to you? and it's very clear to me, at least on an addict basis, that there is no repression going on there. but i know that sort of ability to operate independently. it's been very difficult for international observers. what would be researches i'm we're going to leave it there for time. thanks very much for your time. shawn about sign hanging and sophie richardson and thank you for

watching. you can see the program again any time by visiting our website under there, a dot com. and for the discussion, go to facebook page since facebook dot com forward slash ha inside story. you can also join the conversation on twitter. handle is at a great inside story for me, kim vanelle and the whole team here. and so i found out the ah a jew on al jazeera as wash as invasion of clean the coaches the $100.00 day moving. we bring you the

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