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fully back to the window with a look at ami stories on al jazeera, yvonne and venezuela have signed a 20th corporation agreement. it includes collaboration in the energy and tourism sectors. both countries are under us sanctions. victoria gayton. b reports venezuela's, president nicholas maduro and iran's president abraham racy, meet in tay ran and agree on a 20 year co operation. deals were lava. oh matter with this government co operation has taken place in the fields of energy, economy, science, agriculture, and defense girls. the signing of this agreement is another step in expanding relations in the coming years. venezuela's close ties with the ran date back to its former president hugo chavez. but under missouri, the to opec members have become closer since both was sanctioned by the united states. by my symbol, we will be witnesses in the coming years. our countries will confront the difficulties they face and create a new world. the youth in venezuela,

the youth and iran must know that the world of the future will be a just world without imperialism. iran already supplies venezuela with crude oil and provides technical support to its oil industry. but analysts say missouri's trip is also about solidarity. i do think that it is significant that the 2 countries are trying to join up against american pressure arm, and we have to remember that they're not alone. we also have countries such as russia and china at the same time. however, we have to remember that all of these 4 countries they have different grievances when it comes to the americans. missouri's trip to iran, coincides with the summit of the americas that's taking place in los angeles. washington didn't invite him to the high level meeting. speaking at the summit, u. s. secretary of state anthony blink and said, venezuela's president should resume talks with the countries opposition. in our judgment, venezuelan lead negotiations between the majority and the unitary platform. are the

best path that we can see to trying to restore to venezuelan some a democracy that they clearly deserve and clearly want. it's a call that's almost certain to be ignored. instead he ran and venezuela united against a common enemy appeared closer than ever. victoria gates and be al jazeera 20 countries at the americas summits have announced a so called los angeles declaration on migration. it creates incentives for government to take in more migraines, but some regional leaders weren't invited and others boycott of the vent. so it's not clear how effective the meshes will be. it's been a month since serene abil actually was shot by israeli forces. while on assignment a vigil has been held at the scene of killing in geneva in the occupied west bank. al jazeera media network continues to demand a rapid, independent, and transparent investigation into the death of its gen, missed the greek orthodox archbishop in jeanine hopes,

international condemnation off sharina killing will lead to long term change. he has it out on whether it was killing sharina buckley here or the attack on her funeral. i hope reaction won't be limited to condemnations and announcements. i hope they move beyond that to question and hold the occupation. which targets are people in here in jeanine and elsewhere accountable. those are horrific crimes that are not impress scriptable. and we're proud that marta sharina bu. ucla is a palestinian christian. this proves for those who need proof that palestinian christians are part and parcel of this people, they belong to it and its cause that they defend, we reject turning it into a religious conflict because it's not a religious conflict. the average price of gasoline in the u. s. has hit a historic high at more than $5.00 a gallon. americans are facing the highest inflation rates in 40 years. the fuel costs are being blamed on the worn ukraine. the pandemic and high demand european commission present or sullivan delay and has returned to keith to meet ukrainian

president vladimir lensky. she says they are discussing ukraine's progress towards becoming a member of the european union. and bolivia is former entering president jeanine on years has been found guilty of planning a co in 2019 a court sentence her to 10 years in prison for orchestrating the removal of her predecessor evil morales. the former president says she is innocent, and those are the headlines coming up next on al jazeera, the bottom line is world news like we do. we revisit places to stay well deserve really invests in that. and that's a privilege. as a journalist. hi, i'm steve clements and i have a question. are the experiences of both the united states and russia in afghanistan, shaping the choices they're making today in ukraine? let's get to the bottom line. ah, it was a war that took countless lives and it costs the united states more than $2.00 trillion dollars, but it's also

a war that most americans would really like to forget. in the aftermath of the attacks of 911, afghanistan was a 1st country targeted in the so called global war on terror. it was governed by the taliban, and the taliban had given shelter to al qaeda. so invading the country and toppling its terrorist hugging leadership was initially a really popular moved by president george w bush. but by the time president donald trump was elected, it had become what he called a forever war. decades before that, russia had invaded afghanistan and tried in vain to control that country for 10 long years. last year president joe biden made the risky decision to pull out and almost immediately the taliban were back in power. my guest today has had a ringside, see, not only to the wars and ask in a stand from beginning to end, but also to u. s. government involvement in that region. over the last 40 years. he's also one of the nation's leading strategic thinkers and has important insights into the state of american power today, how it's perceived, and what he believe should be done in response to russia's invasion of ukraine. he

is l may call us our former us ambassador to afghanistan and to iraq and the united nations. and most recently, he served as the special representative for afghanistan reconciliation up until he resigned last october and bastard county side. it's great to be with you today. look, i want to start not with afghanistan, we're going to get to that. but you have written a fascinating piece in national interest magazine. it is titled latimer putin's peer at choices in ukraine. and i love our audience to hear the clarity, you say that latin repute has an option. you can kind of keep things going and try to degrade ukrainian morale and forces. he may, escalade, he could try conventional attack against the nato ally or, you know, upgrade his, his response in, at ukraine. or he might even, you know, make a nuclear attack at some level. and or he could find a way to some sort of acquiescence to a piece process. but in this, i just want to read something for audience. you say about the, the role of the united states, you see on deterring the use of nuclear weapons against ukraine. washington must

indicate that such a step will bring retaliation along the lines of obliterating a russia formation in the black sea or targeting major russian land formation in ukraine. these responses need to be reviewed, preparations made, and that russia needs to know that will almost be permanently isolated even from countries like china and india. it's a very incredible articulation of what the response in a nuclear attack might be. love to have your thoughts about that. what the response to the article has been because i haven't seen any one make this kind of statement . well, thank you very much steve. it's good to be with you. with regard to the article that we, that has been a lot of reaction, a positive reaction, a reaction that says good, that these ideas are out there to be debated to be considered. a russia is in a difficult situation in an ukraine. it's very important to us for russia, it's declining power, but is nostalgic about the empire that it had that it was an ukraine was

a critical part of that empire and bloody and made put and would like to restore that empire. but the is miscalculate that the, it has become much harder than he thought, the east change objective already once from wanting the whole of ukraine to half of ukraine. and in the half that the want that these having real problems and, and so ye faces, these are very tough choices and we have a, we can shape those choices by what we say and what we do and add a potential use of nuclear whap in ukraine against the a nato ally of ours, or even a strike against the united states or issues that the brother elite and russia are debating and different people are advocating for different options. there is no indication that rushes prepared at this point to do so. but the, the,

the idea of that debate and put in references implicitly to nuclear options require that we don't dismiss this possibility and think about it and try to shape russia and actions. well, let's talk a little bit about afghanistan. i don't know anyone that work harder than you did to try to get a different outcome then we eventually saw in afghanistan, you have the unique, i guess, responsibility and experience of having worked both were donald trump, other administration, if a donald trump and joe biden right in the same portfolio, very unique opportunity to try to negotiate with the taliban. because my 1st question is, is the taliban in place today that you were negotiating with different than the taliban? that we knocked out of power shortly after 911. what they said they were are when i and go shaded with them, that they had made serious mistakes the last time when they were in power and

that they had been punished severely by the united states and the coalition for one mistake as days and a mistake that they say they inherit ordering al qaeda said they may because they had been heretic that from the previous government that they took over from in the ninety's or sound, but a lot and personally and as grew but played a big role in helping and a war against the soviets in afghanistan, which we also contributed to, meaning we increase the price for the soviet so much over time. that to our own surprise, our intelligence was very surprised that they would grow. we thought they were very unlikely that they would draw because the in the old soviet bridge. and if dr. an error, when the soviets went into a neighboring country that there and pro sylvia, that was one way highway ever give up number, sir, and ever,

sir. and i never withdraw. so we help the most determine the most slum as fighters we cause we thought that they would become the problems of the soviet union as they would ride through domestic, gave the situation and afghanistan. but at we succeeded beyond that expectation. and to some extent are what we see today in afghanistan still is playing out the some of the things that were happening and, and i knew you were one of the world's leading experts on the soviet invasion and fall in afghanistan. right. and i remember listening to you was a young guy at randall these issues and, and i guess my question is, how did the united states fall into this seem track, right, you became the envoy in dealing with so many of these rows. but were you not during this time also saying we're, we're where they were there we are now where they were mean. well, so i was very hopeful that based on my own experience,

because i went to afghanistan as ambassador of the united states during the bush administration. w and air at things looked very promising, and the afghans or yearning for peace, they welcomed us. we won the war and fear like deliberated relatively quickly, wouldn't not a lot of our of cost, but where me we may have, i've gone off track is that weeds embraced and nation building. add to it at turn, afghanistan into a, a member of the as zone of democracy, peace and prosperity. and the afghans couldn't come to an agreement on that despite either a huge effort and huge effort. we made there, as you referred to in terms of the cause at the end, after 20 years, and the world that changed and terrorism,

i was not the same issue. afghanistan sensuality in the war against that or was not as important as at one was because there is, am at this per cent through networks all over the place. and china add the risen as a challenge dealing with the problem of a rising power. decide dealing with the problem of a declining power. so by 2 presidents, both trump and by then thought there was time to leave. it was costing too much and we went and heading and the right direction. we weren't winning the war at the price that we were willing to pay that price with that level effort. we weren't winning. so what the site live i personally favored and that we make our withdrawal condition base. and that's why the agreement that we've made with the tollman involved but to who pulled the plug on that. i think both presidents thought that if we link our withdrawal to africans agreeing with each other,

we wouldn't be stuck there forever because they're unlikely to agree with each other. so my, i mean, the investor, it raises a really interesting question and i was thinking about you the other night when we're looking and watching president, landscape ukraine and, and really out perform everyone's expectations about leadership, about what ukraine could do in response to the russian military. which maybe we had all been seduced along by putin's own rhetoric about how strong and slick and effective the russian military was. but i wonder if ukraine had happened before afghanistan, whether someone like president sharp ghani and other leaders in afghanistan might have behaved differently. and that it, because we saw total collapse of the will to resist a relative. i mean, i will, i should say the taliban or not the entire population of the country. right? i mean so, so had ukraine come 1st, would we have seen more valiant,

heroic leadership by africans leaders that basically many of them ran out of the government. i'd have gotten government and forces underperformed. that you mentioned over performing by president zelinski underperformed given expectation. we didn't expect that i present ghani would run away and the afghan forces with collapse or rather than a stand and fight at or at least more than now what we a saw. i want to ask you another couple questions on this, but one of them is about refugees in the, in the crisis. those people ever and also the people that were friends with us, interpreters and other supporters. that worked not just for the united states, but our allies over there. i, many of these folks were left behind. some got away, but many are still are in afghanistan. but even broadly, those that got out of the country, they're not being welcomed in mass since the united states. i compare that to president biden's comments about wanting to accept up to 100000 ukrainian refugees . is there an element of racism there?

is there an element of discrimination between our friends in afghanistan and those who are current victims in ukraine? i don't agree with that. don't believe that we took broad out of afghanistan during the 2 weeks at the end of august, over a $100000.00 afghans. and many of them add to the united states, some went to canada or other countries. and 2nd, the process is, continues even a recently i was on a trip to pakistan and i in my private capacity i raised the issue of afghans who wanna get out then don't that papers what can be done to help them. so this is a, any tobacco man helping a puck, son is helping fact. they said they're and they have allowed thousands to come out and that they're on humanitarian grounds when embassies of asked for their help. so eh, this is an ongoing process that is not finished yet. i think that military did an

amazing job to a military to bring out over a 100000 people. no, had that military in the world could have done that. and, and, and 2 weeks, is there any hope that the united states may actually eventually norma wise with afghan leaders? of course, the hope is there that i, we will of normal relations with afghanistan that afghanistan can rejoin the family of nations. it was a respected their member of the international community. and during the monarchy that was overthrown and add some 1973, and then it continued until the soviet invasion. and then since then, afghanistan has been in one crisis, one kind of war or another. and the afghan people yearn piece a unity, an economic growth. and they certainly deserve it, that we have been good partners with them at times like in the war against the

soviets and which they pay the heavy price may be over a $1000000.00 afghans lost their lives at 22. should your hopeful that i your hopeful that even with the current taliban leadership, that areas of mutual interest could? well, i mean, big olive on have commitments to us under the agreement that we signed and not to allow terrorists to ab sanctuary there to plot an unplanned attacks against the united states. like it happened in the ninety's when they were in at the talent. what in afghanistan and i, we need to monitor, we can't trust them either in a words or a or good that the words are good, but we need to see behavior. and that's why have a presence from got that and elsewhere. i add to average over the horizon as we say, presence to monitor, although it won't be as good as being in afghanistan. but we, we, we should do that as far as, but that is concerned. it played an important role in the negotiations. i joke with

equity, pompei a one time that the i have spent so much time in ad caught that because there that's where that negotiation were taking place that i was i now a green card holder and cut or you are i go to cover a lot of your kind of a legendary are so you know, i so they can play an important role of the regional countries. katara as increased as our role as declined. and, and so it is really a key contribution that caught that and others can make to help afghans come together. unity, as i said, piece, because if they that is against sanctuaries for opponents and the fighting goes on, it could produce challenges including increase the risk of terrorism to do. everyone focused on is we're complaining about t t p. o box dot $1.01 and afghan is done when i was there. so the region as a much greater state than,

than the rest of the world in what happens. and i've got, you know, if you're, if you go interview a lot of people that you know about the sal cowles odd, some will say, well, you know, he's republican, he's a, he's worked with all these democrats, he's a neo conservative or the neo liberal, or he's a realist, deep down underneath and so, and i read your book, which i would tell our audience is well worth reading, called the envoy in which you don't believe in burning down bridges right with any of these players. and i want to ask about one of these bridges that president biden may be burning down and it has to do with african assets at about $7000000000.00. the afghan stan government still has frozen in the united states. the president decided to, to take about half of that money and save it for the victims of, of african supported terrorism at some level and give the others to a 3rd party. i've always been of the view that that was a dangerous box to open because it,

it closed down an option of dealing with governments whether you like them or didn't. and you were trying to move them where you were. is it a mistake to open up, is that a pandora's box? that once you begin taking assets that are frozen from another government, that you end up closing diplomatic options that we shouldn't do? right? well i and that is a leverage or frozen resources or assets have, but that's to be used very selectively or not to make it a regular pattern or in terms of our foreign policy. because then it does the fact that people wouldn't want to have their res, i resources in the united states, or on the particular case, i think what the president has decided was to put to withhold 3 and a half 1000000000 in case the courts decide. add that death and the families deserve to be dead to receive monies

from. and the afghans and the government of the time that the attack took place that taliban because of a presence that he hasn't said it should go to the families, it could go to, to the, to afghans and stick court decision. and now all sides older up and making that presentation to the court to decide i am sure the president goes under a lot of pressure and from the families than others to do so. and the taliban, i've not made it easy. i add to add to it to be helpful to them. you know, one of the things, just as we get into the home stretch here that i've been thinking about was, what's the future of ukraine? what's the future of afghanistan? you have 2 countries that are kind of caught in a vice and you make this clear in your national interest article that maybe maybe perhaps ukraine may have to forego nato membership in order to get

a different thing. ah, and we haven't talked about it, but afghanistan sits in a vice between india and pakistan. right. doesn't control all its own temperature within its own borders and rocks and it raises the question of so, so u. s. history with vietnam, we eventually normalized 20 years after the vietnam war we have yet to meet in winner. is there a way to escape geostrategic vices that both of these countries are in and, and i would say with united states, is there a way 20 years from now to potentially normalized as we did with vietnam to do so with afghan. oh, i think they're all several alternative futures and maybe more than several. i'm depending on the configurations and what happens certainly that there's one alternate. the future where i have janice done. i makes peace with itself. and i with the different factions, ethnic groups and religious ad secretary and differences

comes to a 4 agreement on a formula which has been the problem that has been no agreement on a formula that has brought support. there are thought ones, and there are republicans that there are people want decentralized scanners on where their friend regions are more control over their affairs. there are others we want the strong central state road of religion that they haven't come to an agreement on that they can agree to do. and if they do and they do not present, the country does not present the threat to the united states. why not the doesn't an important region it as resources such as are the resources that the world needs and would want. and it should be developed in a way that that's important. also location, in terms of being

a land bridge between central asia, which very much wants to have access to the warm waters which the russian empire will wanted to. but the central agent stays would like to be able to access the ports and pakistan order the markets of india and pakistan are important. but yes, you're right, that the regional rivalry between india and pakistan has had a negative effect on afghanistan on the struggle that does taken place dead with support thing and other side. so that's unfortunately a fact of life and that is no prospects in the immediate future of india and pakistan coming to an agreement on many as issues that divide them as i think that might be a challenge for afghan. let me ask you, finally a while back i interviewed vice president dick cheney, and my kicker question, which i'll ask you, is your, did he have any regrets about the iraq war or the iraq invasion you, of course, our audience were the us ambassador, iraq. how do you look back now?

iraq, or was it a mistake which had, should we have done things differently? while the question is that i had that that time was the timing. i was doing both countries and i was martinez time l. danny, as the and i that way, i mean if it's not urgent, can we finish? i've done is done, but of course the judgement was made. i have had the regrets myself. questions about how we did it. timing is one. how we did it? did we need to dismantle their iraqi army? did we need to govern iraq ourselves who it was supposed to be liberation? we declared then, occupation, government. so it didn't have to be this way. and then were we attentive to kind of regional meddling as much as we should have, particularly iran. we took advantage of the situation, a rock and now it's quite influential and iraq. so

a yes. i think it's clear to some mistakes were made. yes. well ambassadors, how may cal us out is someone who makes me want to have a 2 hour show because this could have gone on for a long time. he has former us special representative for afghanistan reconciliation, former ambassador, united nations, iraq, and afghanistan. ambassador, thank you so much for joining us today. steve. great to be with you. pleasure. so what's the bottom line? trying to change the course of afghanistan was an expensive effort that in my view, failed some sought as neo colonialism bound to not turn out well. vast amounts of money were spent in the might of the american military was brought to bear, but nothing changed. the geostrategic vice that afghanistan sits in the same applies the ukraine, even if moscow and kiev duke it out. does it changed ja graphy and history? my guess today laid out a bleak scenario in my view, in which there are low cost ways to deter russia. but america has to be all in, even if it means facing the possibility of russia using your weapons. these days

are similar to periods before the united states got involved with europe in world war one. and then again in world war 2. after years of hesitation, can the u. s. remain comfortably distant this time? the choice matters. as one choice gives permission for aggression around the world . and the other means major cost for the united states and its citizens. but it also imposes costs on the bad guys. and that's the bottom line. ah frank assessment. it sounds like you don't expect anything to change the problem in lebanon. it's actually structural lebanon needs and use social contract for it to solve this problem. in depth analysis of the days global headlines inside story on al jazeera, unprompted and done interrupted discussions from our london broadcast center on al jazeera

with me. and she investments ah.