round to bring you more award winning documentary and lied nice. ah al jazeera with oh, i'll just cirrus correspondence, bring you the latest developments on the war in ukraine to take cover. this is what's happening on a daily basis. the medics is a he is incredibly lucky. those coming out fast across the lines of no man's land where one of the few to gain access to this embattled town. they take us to their basement, where we find others sheltering from the shelling these evacuation. now by say, 3 days journey devastated buildings are now a grim reminder that the russians were here. ah,

hello, i'm darren, jordan and dough. with a quick reminder of the top stories here on the al jazeera, a bipartisan group of us senators as agreed on our framework for new gun control laws. it's aimed at curbing rising gun violence and would keep weapons away from people deemed to be a threat. but critics say the measures don't go far enough by kind of reports now from washington, dc. the framework agreement follows weeks of closed door negotiations in the senate . it's one of the 1st bipartisan gun control agreements in decades. we haven't had significant federal legislation in nearly 30 years. so having a framework announced having 10 republican senators long was 10 democrats binding off on that, which would avoid the filibuster in the united states senate. it's a really big deal. the tentative agreement has been welcome by president biden, who's tweeted, i want to thank senator chris murphy and the bipartisan group for the gun safety

proposal that does not do everything that i think is needed. but it reflects important steps in the right direction with bipartisan support. there are no excuses for delay. let's get this done. but some don't want it done. i think it's deeply disappointing that republican leadership decided to get in lead with the democratic conference in the senate to put together a gun control bill. you know, that should be a huge red flag for republican voters going into the fall. significant proposals include incentive states to pass so called red flag laws, which allow a judge to decide whether a gun via or owner poses a potential threat to others. federal background checks and buyers and to $21.00 would include access to the records as minors and federal funding for mental health care and increase school security. so, but these measures for well short of what's being demanded by gun control. advocates including president biden himself

at rallies across us saturday. calls were made for a bad on the sale of semi automatic weapons and high capacity magazines. and for the age at which an individual can buy a rifle range from $18.00 to $21.00. to match the existing federal law concerning hand guns. my assault rifles were used in the mess, shootings, and you bought the texas and in buffalo, new york. in each case, they were wielded by 18 year olds. the senate to subset an informal goal of passing the book before the 24th of this month. when congress goes on a 2 week recess back with the legislation still not fully written. it's unlikely that this goals will be met and a certain that the model suggestions will do, little to ease the mounting pressure on politicians to pass meaningful gun control measures or face the consequences in the midterm elections. mike, hannah,

i'll just 0, washington french president and manual macros coalition and it's left when rival on neck and neck. in the 1st round of frances legislative elections. projections suggest micro centrist alliance should win the risk of losing the majority in the national assembly. micro will need to hang onto that majority to press ahead re plan reforms. he faces competitions, mal, left or an alliance. led by john, look, the national brazilian police said they found a laptop and an id card in the wrote part of the amazon, where 2 men went missing. a vigil has been held in re diginero marking a week since indigenous expert, bruno pereira and british journalists. phillips disappeared. iraqi politician looked at a sudden, has resigned from parliament with 72 more members of his political party. he says it was to break an 8 month political deadlock. a russian state new agency has shared footage. it says show smoke rising from the assault chemical plant and east

in the ukraine. the governor of the hans province says fuel to storage tanks and chemicals of caught fire. now, what was the 1st mcdonald's restaurant in russia is reopened, and a new branding chain is now called delicious, full stop shop, all of the 850 outlets in march following the invasion of ukraine. those were the headlines and who continues now to 0 after the bottom line. thank you so much bye for now. ah, hi, i'm steve clements and i have a question. are the experiences of both the united states and russia in afghanistan, shaping the choices they're making today? in ukraine, let's get to the bottom line. ah,

it was a war that took countless lives and it cost the united states more than $2.00 trillion dollars. but it's also a war that most americans would really like to forget. in the aftermath of the attacks of 911, afghanistan was the 1st country targeted in the so called global war on terror. it was governed by the taliban, and the taliban had given shelter to al qaeda. so invading the country and toppling its terrorist hugging leadership was initially a really popular move by president george w bush. but by the time president donald trump was elected, it had become what he called a forever war. decades before that, russia had invaded afghanistan and tried in vain to control that country for 10 long years. last year, president joe biden made the risky decision to pull out and almost immediately the taliban were back in power. my guest today has had a ringside seat not only to the wars in afghanistan from beginning to end, but also to u. s. government involvement in that region. over the last 40 years. he's also one of the nation's leading strategic thinkers and has important insights into the

state of american power today, how it's perceived, and what he believes should be done in response to russia's invasion of ukraine. he is al, may callas aud former us ambassador to afghanistan and to iraq and the united nations . and most recently, he served as the special representative for afghanistan reconciliation up until he resigned last october, ambassador calcite, it's great to be with you today. look, i want to start not with afghanistan, we're going to get to that. but you have written a fascinating piece and national interest magazine and its titled vladimir putin spirit choices in ukraine. and i'd love our audience to hear the clarity. you say that latin reputed has an option. you can kind of keep things going and try to degrade ukrainian morale and forces he may escalate. he could try a conventional attack against the nato ally, or, you know, upgrade his, his response in that ukraine. or he might even, you know, make a nuclear attack at some level. and or he could find a way to some sort of acquiescence to a piece process. but in this,

i just want to read something for audience. you say that the, the role of the united states, you see on deterring the use of nuclear weapons against ukraine. washington must indicate that such a step will bring retaliation along the lines of obliterating a russian formation in the black sea or targeting major russian land formation in ukraine. these responses need to be reviewed, preparations made, and that russia needs to know that will almost be permanently isolated even from countries like china and india. it's a very incredible articulation of what the response in a nuclear attack might be. love to have your thoughts about that. what the response to the article has been because i haven't seen any one make this kind of statement while thank you very much steve. it's good to be with you. with regard to the article that, that has been a lot of reaction, a positive reaction or reaction that is good idea out there to be debated to be considered. russia isn't a difficult situation in,

in ukraine. it's very important for russia, it's a declining power, but is now styled jake about the empire that it had that it was an ukraine with a critical part of that empire and bloody may put in would like to restore that empire. but he had miscalculated the it has become much harder than he thought the change objective already once from wanting the whole of ukraine to half of ukraine and in the have that the want that these having real problems. and so you faces these very tough choices and we have a we could shape those choices by what we say and what we do and the potential use of nuclear weapons in ukraine against the nato ally of ours, or even a strike against the united states or issues that the broader elite and russia are

debating and differing people are advocating for different options. there is no indication that rushes prepared at this point to do so. but the, the, the idea of the debate and put in references implicitly to nuclear options requires that we don't dismiss this possibility and think about it and try to shape russia and actions. well, let's talk a little bit about afghanistan. i don't know any one that work harder than you did to try to get a different outcome then we eventually saw in afghanistan, you have the unique, i guess, responsibility and experience of having worked. both were donald trump ministration, but donald trump and joe biden right. in the same portfolio, very unique opportunity to try to negotiate with the taliban. this. my 1st question is, is the taliban in place today that you were negotiating with different than the taliban? that we knock out of power shortly after 911? well, they said they were to when i and go shaded with them,

that they had the made a serious mistakes the last time when they were in power. and that debt had been punished severely by the united states and the coalition for one mistake as they sat there and a mistake that they say day in harring alcohol. and one must take. they may because they had inherited that from the previous government that they took over from in the ninety's either or solomon law, then personally and as grew, but played a big role in helping. and that war against the soviets in afghanistan, which we also contributed to, meaning we increase the price for the soviet so much over time that to our own surprised at intelligence. i was very surprised that they would group, we thought they were very unlikely that they would draw because the in the old soviet brezhnev, dr. and ara, when at the soviet, went into

a neighboring country that, that there and pro soviet, that was that one way highway ever give out number sir, and ever, sir. and that never would draw. and so we help that most. the determined is the most to slam as fighters because we thought that they would become the problems of the soviet union as they would try to domesticate the situation and afghanistan . but at we succeeded beyond that expectation. and to some extent, are what we see the day in afghanistan still is playing out the some of the things that were happening and, and i knew you were, were of the world's leading experts on the soviet invasion and fall and afghanistan . right. and i remember listening to you was a young guy, it ran all these issues and, and i guess my question is, how did the united states fall into this seem track or you became the envoy in dealing with so many these rows. but were you not during this time also saying

we're, we're, we're, we're, there we are now where they were. mean, well, so i was very hopeful that based on my own experience, because i went to afghanistan as ambassador of the united states during the bush administration, w. and air at things looked very promising at the afghans or yearning for peace. they welcomed us, we won the war if you like to liberated, relatively quickly, wouldn't not a lot of our of cost, but where me we may have, i've gone off track is that weeds embraced and nation building at today at turn, afghanistan into a, a member of the as zone of democracy, peace and prosperity, and the afghans couldn't come to an agreement on that despite either a huge effort and huge effort we made there, as you referred to in terms of the cause. at the end, after 20 years,

and the world that changed and terrorism, i was not the same issue. afghanistan sensuality in the war against that or was not as important as at one was because there is a math disperse in true networks all over the place. and china add the risen as a challenge dealing with the problem of a rising power decide dealing with the problem of a declining power. so by 2 presidents, both trump and by then thought there was time to leave. it was costing too much and we went and heading and the right direction. we weren't winning the war at the price that we were willing to pay that price with that level effort. we weren't winning. so what the site live i personally favored and that we make our withdrawal condition base. and that's why the agreement that we've made with a dollar money involved. but to who pulled the plug on that. i think both

presidents thought that if we link our withdrawal to africans agreeing with each other, we wouldn't be stuck there forever because they're unlikely to agree with each other. so my, i mean, the pastor, it raises a really interesting question and i was thinking about you the other night when we're looking and watching president, landscape ukraine and, and really out perform everyone's expectations about leadership, about what ukraine could do in response to the russian military. which maybe we had all been seduced along by putin's own rhetoric about how strong and slick and effective the russian military was. but i wonder if ukraine had happened before afghanistan, whether someone like president sharp ghani and other leaders in afghanistan might have behaved differently. and they did because we saw the total collapse of the will to resist a relative. i mean,

i should say the taliban or not the entire population of the country. right? i mean, so, so had ukraine come 1st? would we have seen more valiant, heroic leadership by africans leaders that basically many of them ran out of the government. i'd have gotten government and forces underperformed. you mentioned over performing by president zelinski under performed given expectation. we then expect that president gotten it would run away and the afghan forces with collapse rather than stand and fight or at least more than what we saw. i want to ask you another couple questions of this, but one of them is about refugees and the, and the crisis, those people and also the people that were friends with us, interpreters and other supporters, that work not just for the united states, but our allies over there many of these folks were left behind, some got away, but many are still in afghanistan. but even broadly, those that got out of the country, they're not being welcomed in mass in the united states. compare that to president

biden's comments about wanting to accept up to 100000 ukrainian refugees. is there an element of racism? there is an element of discrimination between our friends in afghanistan and those who are current victims in ukraine. i don't agree we don't believe that we brought out of afghanistan, and during the 2 weeks at the end of august, over 100000 africans. and many of them add to the united states, some went to canada or other countries. and 2nd, the process is continues even her recently i was on a trip to pakistan and i in my private capacity, i raised the shoe of afghan to wanna get out, then don't that papers what can be done to help them. so this is a, it's a pac man helping i have at the pac sun is helping fact. they said they're and they have allowed thousands to come out of that. the, on humanitarian grounds,

when embassies of asked for their help. so eh, this is an ongoing process. it's not finished yet. the, i think their military did an amazing job to a military to bring out over a 100000 people. no other military in the world could have done that and and, and 2 weeks. is there any hope that the united states may actually eventually normalize with afghan leaders? of course, the hope is there that a we will love normal relations with afghanistan that afghanistan can rejoin the family of nations. it was a respected their member of the international community. i during the monarchy that was overthrown and add some 1973, and then it continued until the soviet invasion. and then since then, afghanistan has been in one crisis, one kind of war or a mother. and the afghan people yearn piece a unit d an economic growth. and they certainly deserve it. we have been good partners

with them at times like in the war against the soviets, in which they pay the heavy price may be over a $1000000.00 afghans lost their lives at 2 or 2. should your hope for that, why we're hopeful that even with the current taliban leadership, that areas of mutual interest could well, i mean, but if you wanna have commitments to us under the agreement that we sigh and not to allow terrorists to ab sanctuary their to plot and, and plan attacks against the united states, like it happened in the ninety's, when they were in at the talib, what in afghanistan. and i, we need to monitor, we can't trust them. my, the in a words are good that their words are good, but we need to see behavior. and that's why ab, a presence from katara and elsewhere. eric add to abbe over the horizon as we say, presidents to monitor, although it won't be as good as being in afghanistan. but we, we,

we should do that as far as that is concerned. it played an important role in the negotiations. i joke with like, with a pompei a one time that i have spent so much time in ad caught that because there that's where that negotiation were taking place that i was i now a green card holder and cut to where you are. i go to cut a lot of your kind of a legend there. so you know, i, so they can play and important the role of the regional countries right kata as an increase as our role as declined. and, and so it is a really a key, a contribution that caught that and others can make to help afghans come together. unity, as i said, there piece i because if they, there is, again, sanctuaries for opponents and they're fighting goes on. and it could produce challenges including increased risk of terrorism to do every one paxton is, we're complaining about ttp, ada box danita, ala,

bon and afghanistan. when i was there, so in that region as a, a much greater stake, dana, than, than the rest of the world in what happens in afghanistan. you know, if you, if you recall interview a lot of people that you know about sal cowles, odd of some will say, well, you know, he's republican. no, he said he's worked with all these democrats, he's a neoconservative, the neo liberal, where he's a realist, deep down underneath. and so, and, and i read your book, which i would tell our audience is well worth reading, called the envoy in which you don't believe in burning down bridges right with any of these players. and i want to ask about one of these bridges that president biden may be burning down. and it has to do with afghan assets and about $7000000000.00. the afghanistan government still has frozen in the united states. the president decided to, to take about half that money and save it for victims of, of afghan, a supported terrorism at some level and give the others to

a 3rd party. i've always been of the view that that was a dangerous box to open because it, it closed down an option of dealing with governments. whether you like them or didn't, you were trying to move them where you were. is it a mistake to open up? is that a pandora's box that once you begin taking assets that are frozen from another government, that you end up foreclosing diplomatic options that we shouldn't do? right? well i said that is a leverage or frozen resources or assets have. but that's to be used very selectively or not to make it a regular path. they're not in terms of our foreign policy, because then it does the fact that people wouldn't want to have batteries or resources in the united states or on the f particular case. i think what the president has decided was to put to withhold 3 and a half 1000000000 in case the courts decide add that death.

and the families deserve to be dead to receive monies from and the afghans and the government of the time that the attack took place. that talib won because of a presence that he hasn't said it should go to the families. it could go to the afghans at stick court decision and now all sides older up and making that presentation to the court to decide. i am sure the president goes under a lot of pressure and from the families than others to do so. and the taliban. i've not made it easy. i add to add to it to be helpful to them. you know, one of the things, just as we get into the home stretch here that i've been thinking about was, what's the future of ukraine? what's the future of afghanistan? you have 2 countries that are kind of caught in

a vice. and you make this clear in your national interest article that maybe maybe, perhaps ukraine may have to forego nato membership in order to get a different thing. ah, and we haven't talked about it, but afghan as an sits and advice between india and pakistan. right? doesn't control all its own temperature within its own borders, some rocks and it raises the question of so. so u. s. history with vietnam, we eventually normalized 20 years after the vietnam war with him. he's in winner. is there a way to escape geo strategic vices that both of these countries are in and, and i would say with united states, is there a way 20 years from now to potentially normalized as we did with vietnam to do so with afghan. oh, i think they're all several alternative futures and maybe more than several. i'm depending on the configurations and what happens certainly that there's one alternate. the future where i have janice done. i

makes peace with itself. i with the different factions, ethnic groups and religious ad secretary and differences. i come to a for agreement on a formula which has been the problem that has been no agreement on a formula that has brought support. there are dollar ones and there are public that there are people want decentralize, i've counted on where different regions are more control over their affairs. there are others. we want the strong, central state road of religion that they haven't come to an agreement on that they can agree to do. and if they do and they do not present the country does not present a threat to the united states. why not the doesn't an important region it as resources such as are the resources that the world needs and what want and it

should be developed in a way that's, that's important. also location, in terms of being a land breach between central asia, which very much wants to have access to the warm waters which the russian empire will wanted to. but the central agent stays would like to be able to access the ports and pakistan order the markets of india and pakistan are important. but yes, you're right, that the regional rivalry between india and pakistan has had a negative effect on afghanistan on the struggle that does taken place there with a support thing. another side. so that's unfortunately a fact of life and that is no prospects in the immediate future of india and pakistan coming to an agreement on many as issues that divide them as i think that to be a challenge for afghan. let me ask you, finally a while back i interviewed vice president dick cheney, and my kicker question, which i'll ask you, is your,

did he have any regrets about the iraq war or the iraq invasion you, of course, our audience were the us ambassador, iraq. how do you look back now? iraq, was it a mistake? which should, should we have done things differently? well, the question is that i had that, that time a was the timing. i was doing both countries and i will at martinez the time. well, danny, as deanna is that the william and if it's not urgent, can we let finish? afghanistan em. but there, of course the judgment was made. i have the hand to regrets myself of questions about how we did it. timing is one. how we did it, did we need to a, dismantle there, iraqi army? and did we need to govern iraq ourselves who it was supposed to be liberation? we dis declared, then, occupation, government. and so it didn't have to be this way. and then we were we attentive to kind of regional meddling as much as we should have, particularly urine. and we just took advantage of the situation. iraq and it is now

a quite influential a in iraq. so a yes or i think it's clear to some mistakes were made. yes. well and bastards, they'll make how a thought is someone who makes me want to have a 2 hour show because this could have gone on for a long time. he has former u. s. special representative for afghanistan reconciliation, former ambassador, united nations, iraq, and afghanistan. ambassador, thank you so much for joining us today. oh, steve, to great to be with you. pleasure. so what's the bottom line? trying to change the course of afghanistan was an expensive effort that in my view failed. so i'm sought, as neo colonialism bound to not turn out well. vast amounts of money were spent in the might of the american military was brought to bear, but nothing changed. the geostrategic vice that afghanistan sits at the same applies the ukraine, even if moscow in kiev, duke it out. does it change geography and history?

my guess today, laid out oblique scenario in my view, in which there are low cost ways to deter russia. but america has to be all in, even if it means facing the possibility of russia using your weapons. these days are similar to periods before the united states got involved with europe in world war one. and then again, in world war 2, after years of hesitation, can the u. s. remain comfortably distant this type? the choice matters, as one choice gives permission for aggression around the world. and the other means major cos for the united states and its citizens. but it also imposes costs on the bad god. and that's the bottom line. ah, a range of africa is what i'm most proud on. every time i travel back, whether it's east or west africa, people stop me and tell me how much they appreciate coverage. and our focus is not just on their suffering, but also on the more uplifted and inspiring story. people trust volunteer to tell

them what's happening in their community in a clear and unbiased. and that's an african, i couldn't be more proud to be part of, you know, a with lou. wow.