you plane and saudi crown prince wizard will signal whether this aspirations will be achieved. risten said that i'll just euro uncover why fighters are trying to put a large wild foreign turkeys, so southern coast. the place broke out on tuesday near the resort town of mama. this is reportedly spreading quickly because of windy conditions. but our fears of a repeat of last year was wild fires, which the government described as the worst in turkey's history. ah, this is all da 0. these are the top stories. the u. s. senate has voted in favor of considering a bill that would toughen gun laws. the compromise bill was presented by republicans as well as democrats, but it falls well short of the sweeping changes demanded by gun control campaigners . a senior official overseeing the police in the state of texas says, officers responds to the valleys,

school shooting was an abject failure. it old officials, police could have stopped the shooting. within 3 minutes of the gunman, entering the building. 3 minutes after supper tendered west building. there was sufficient number of armed officers, warring body army di slate was cracked and neutralized the subject. the only thing stopping a hallway of dedicated officers from any room, 111 in 112 was yonce in commander who decided place the lives of officers for the lives of children. the authors had weapons, the children had none. the officers had body armor. the children had none of that training. the subject had none. state election officials of told the u. s. congress that they were personally pressured by president donald trump. to overturn the result of the 2020 election, there were testifying before the 4th hearing of the house committee investigation into last year's attack on capital hill. the to swing states of our zona and

georgia were a particular focus. a jury in the u. s. has found, act her bill cosby a liable for sexually abusing an under aged girl in 1975, the california jury ordered cosby to pay the victim half a $1000000.00 in damages. bangladesh has sent troops to try to help millions of people trapped by flood waters in the northeastern part of the country. the government struggling to deliver water and food security forces in ecuador have use tear gas and pellet shots against indigenous protesters converging than the capital . kato, demonstrators are demanding lower prices for fuel and food, as well as an end to mining on indigenous land. one protester has died and 3, a reported to be in a critical condition. those are the headlines. the news continues and al jazeera after the stream, the by outside of the conference in ukraine. how concerned should we be about designed to build up? we bring the stories from different ones that are rapidly changing the world. we

live in, the one become roches new dollars. it becoming rushes new door, counting the coast on al jazeera. i i am for me. okay, thanks for watching the stream this week. a long awaited report investigating how billions of dollars was stolen from south africans during the presidency of preston . jacob zimmer is about to be released to business men who were implicated in that scandal who fled to the united arab emirates. they're about to be extradited. does that mean that finally south africa is able to grapple with its corruption problems? that is our conversation for today you want to be part of it. is right here. join our discussion. ah,

how can we bring young boy to talk about this conversation? it's such a tricky one to have been lonnie kathy schiff. anita, thank you so much. you do appreciate you from lonnie, please say hello to our audience. tell them who you are, what you do. hello everyone. i am in economics and politics commentator in south africa. i write for various news outlets. so yeah, is what i do in the media and comment on current affairs. give an important be a voice and that's why i'm here. nice savvy calisha. welcome to the stream. please . hello to audience around the well, tell them who you are and what you do. hi everyone. i'm kemesha kelly. i am the head of stakeholder relations and campaigns act and as non profit organization called corruption watching janice book. i'm a social justice activist now being in the anti corruption field with the last decade. good to have you and for me to welcome back to the spring is always good to have you on board. if you wanna audience who you are,

i'm what you do. thanks very much for me. i'm from you to mila. i'm the southern african correspondent for al jazeera english. and i've covered a number of stories around some of these corruptions scandals that involve the former president, but appears to be carrying on into the current administration in south africa and continues to be a major topic of discussion. yeah. for me to this phrase, state capture. it's unique to south africa, it's almost as if government politicians have been using south african funds as if it's like an a t m. it's like this public's money. it's our money. let's use it. can you give us a couple of examples of what state capture? literally means it's basically elements that the state being taken over taking, being to fund it. and that's exactly it. and that's of africans to some extent, haven't had on since around just how the state funds have been used. and in that way, the state captured and used to benefit

a select few and perhaps people linked to them. you touched on the group 2 brothers who had been arrested in the united arab emirates at the beginning of this month. and i think this is specifically a story that has captured the imagination of south africans because you have one family born in india to begin with, who move to south africa around 10931994. and through the relationship with the former president jacob zoom, i meant to manipulate state enterprises influence the former president, and also affect just who runs this country. ultimately wanting specific people in prominent positions to benefit to their business dealings. and i think that's one of the major and key issues, examples of state capture in south africa. but i think what it's concerning for south africans is that it seems to be top down and almost no end to the extent of corruption. and that's why i think that keeping a keen eye on this in particular, because it's one of those instances that needs to be dealt with effectively and put

all the africans to feel reassured that something is being done to the national purse where they just don't have arms around their tax money having to is this the biggest corruption scandal that south africa as ever had to deal with? yes, unfortunately, you know, during this stage capture in this iteration of the state capture era, it has been quite devastating to the country just to bold on to it from you to was saying is that state capture is a type of grind corruption. and what the good at brothers had done, essentially was they had hollowed out state institutions. so like state owned enterprises. but also law enforcement institutions in the country were one of the forced to fall. meaning that politically compromised people will placed in our criminal justice agency. so that they could be in not go off and prosecuting whole the groups of brothers in the those within they circle accountable. so it has been

be devastating to the country. it has been a very big issue. but corruption has been a problem for south africa even before our democracy. i think at this point or what's the difference right now is that there's a higher level of transparency. we have the media were able to expose this, but these types of issues it on state caption, grand political corruption is not something that's new to south africa. so that's a really good point. baloney. i remember living in south africa at the time when j consumer was campaigning to be president, and people were laughing like jacob, so he's got such such a history, such a cheeky press and he's in, he's got so much baggage. there is no way he's going to be president of south africa i'm and here we are. is the problem with corruption? is it because j consumer sets as president an atmosphere for where there's an

anything goes way of governing? or was he to sliding and quite nicely into a way of coughing that was already set up? well look, a corruption was already there as cuz the show has sort of you know, said, but we've jacobs or my the state capture it was i would argue the biggest scandal in sort of customer chrissy because of the magnitude of the nature of it. the connections that were built, a very interesting statistic is that some people estimated about 6500000000 dollars was looted or stolen in government funds in the state capture, you know, in this corruption network with a child in zoom as administration. now for me, that's a big amount of money given the challenges, the kinds of faces, the challenge of poverty, the challenges, challenges of our service delivery. quite occasion infrastructure that is

a whole lot, isn't it? because because south africans are still disappointed that their standard of living, since a party had ended, is not as high as they would like it to be. meanwhile, the politicians that they voted into office are stealing, not all of them, but some of them are stealing their wealth. that is shameful. i think this is where the n c me a so i guess the african national congress is having a lot of difficulty and being criticized significantly because of the promises made . and we're seeing how the extent of corruption is trickling down to a dwindling support for the ac. we saw this in the last election, and we're also facing a very important political. we are in south africa this year. and this is where the corruption allegations against

a number of high ranking and c leadership and even the current president obama was i boiled in a scandal at the moment. i'm around a private residence and the alleged left of millions of dollars. this kind, these kind of allocations and scandals are trickling down to solve africans and ultimately affecting the a and c support because of the lack of service delivery. so you've spoken about how it's impacted, how south africans are viewing the government and how they disgruntled but ultimately we are going to have authorities how to account if not with criminal charges being laid against them, but certainly a dwindling political support. they are going to feel the impact of that. let me just go to you too because i got some interesting comments on you can be sure help me out with a few of the cello says, apart from just the monetary value that was stolen. what was worse, was the investment lost in infrastructure and improving the lives of ordinary people because the ship can you pick up or not?

isn't he, i mean, so that she could at the dawn of our democracy, we've had, you know, when, with our constitution we have perhaps one of the most progressive constitutions in the world. what corruption has done is that it's proving to the delays asian of basic human rights to people. meaning that is a large population in our country who don't have access to basic services to running water to housing, to education, to healthy, just as kamani was saying. and you know, i think for a long time, the conversation at, on corruption has always been an economic one. you know, we've always focused on fetish, you know, you know, the amount of the billions in the chileans that will last. but we've never really focused on the people in the lives that it's impacted. and i think during this, you know, during that the state capture this iteration of state caption during the rears to do judicial commissions of inquiry. we, we actually lines about ordinary people and how they've been suffering and what

they faced. you know, it's changed the conversation and it's started to make us as a country, realised that, you know, this is not sustainable. it's asked me to was saying that, you know, the political eat a losing, you know, chest, they've lost public trust. and, and, you know, the scary thing that starting to emerge is that there's a number of perception surveys that have been done by credible institutions that are saying that, you know, south africans are willing, young south africans, are willing to give up democracy, are willing to give up the right to vote so that they can just have access to how key and what so and employment. and these are just the fix of corruption in the countries that people no longer believe in our democracy or they don't see the, the value in it. because they aren't able to meaningfully participate in it. but lonnie earlier on today as a team in johannesburg, went out on to the streets to, to get some of the public reaction. go ahead,

did you want to say something before i place some of the public matchings i was really interested in you just bouncing off the back of that, monica, if you go fast. yes, i wanted to talk about this also highlights family of them. the dangers of a very, very massive, very powerful states, how dangerous it can be right in the sense that they're more the bigger the government is. that also appends opportunities for higher levels of corruption. right. so, and we saw that the cement of corruption under jacob zoom and the size of the state, how damaging it was. so we need to have also to think about how we can minimize government to make it as small as possible so that we don't see, you know, more possibilities or opportunities. opportunities of any who's got, you know, is, as of perhaps getting out of here. you know who, who's moved in that will push for that? well, i think the main thing here is to understand basically the import that importance

has to come from the head of the state. i think that's very important to say, okay, he also i'm putting together the administration how gray makes sure that i have as small the government as possible. and how do we as also citizens push for the changes? what was it where democracy, if we can add you in, push for the change where government is getting out of control in terms of size empowers. we can achieve something, we need to drive the change as well as citizens. wanted to really get a sense of how south africans were thinking and feeling about the venture extradition of the good 2 brothers. so they have to come back to south africa to phase and to be on trial. i'm so for me to and her team went out to talk to people and this is what they told us a little bit earlier today. not everyone is not above no, not above them. this is an example to, there was also causing corruption option is a crime. i think it's very important in a country like this,

that nobody is above above the law and for the rule of law to be taking its course here because it is a brilliant thing and you know, if they've got a case that had be heard in it, in the by the judiciary and independent judiciary. and let's see what the outcome is, but i think it's a very, very good thing. the nation has been waiting for this moment. we're seeing a change at least for once, i guess people are not getting away with, with corruption as easily as before. is a good example to anyone who's got meetings such i crimes or 2 in one my to commit crime. you might try not where you from a place, but it's not to run away from your crimes. made people sing quite optimistic there, but on you cheer. well, i've got hines saying south africa will never change. while corrupt people are in power, they would do everything to stay in power. but were you feeling as you were going out and about the people? i know the cup 2 brothers are coming back to face a trial. that means something i think. ringback is just the extent of that alleged

corruption that's got people i suppose, as you say optimistic but determined to get answers to an around state capture and corruption. i'm in debt. this family was allowed to you south africa as a piggy bank really. and i think that's why many of them are quite passionate around the group 2 brothers. perhaps the former president, jacob zoom i and anybody else who might be involved to answer for these alleged crimes. and also i think the messaging from the government potentially and the national prosecuting authority could be on point in terms of showing south africans that were ready to do something about corruption. and that's certainly how president obama was a, has positioned himself that he's anti corruption, that he's going to clean up government. and that africa, it will potentially have a better future in terms of restoring government integrity,

supporting development. and essentially, just making this a workable state and creating governance that works better for south africans and, and perhaps to optimistically. so the africans leaning on the potential extradition and court appearance and trial of the group 2 brothers to restore their faith in the government. the convention i'm thinking about how deep does corruption in south africa go beyond form a present jacob, same beyond the go to brothers, and does it spread all the way through the current government as well? how soon were i'm a post done in terms of he came, his mandate was i'm going to fight corruption. how would you assess his attempt to fight corruption? so i think connection at the moment in the country unfortunately has become quite endemic. and that is, you know,

baldwin from it has point this been us just a college in a st of impunity and nobody's been held accountable. so when you see people on the streets, you know, having a sense of optimism, you can see why because, you know, for years this should be no accountability. but you can also understand that despair from some of you, you're the audience members and youtube because they still not enough that's being done. and i think that's the issue with the current president with a president jam opposed that he definitely came in on the anti corruption ticket. you know, he promised to clean up the state. but, you know, given the politics of the, of the ruling party at the moment, you know, there was no ne way, oh, there was no room for him to actually make those radical changes. but be also now i sitting with me sitting with the president who has also been embroiled in a number of scandals. oh, you know, most recently around a property that he owns and you know, a few $1000000.00 that's been stashed. allegedly, in

a couch of he's and that's are, if you could give me a got back up just a little bit because i'm so glad you told the story cuz i was about to ask you. so in one of his residences, i believe millions of dollars stashed in various pieces of furniture and then that money whence i want to do a price, but i went missing. okay, yes, alleging that he is involved in corruption, even though he's the person who's supposed to be fighting corruption. felicia finish or thought, i want them bringing president rama post to see how he reacted to those those, those allegations, but finish of thought. yeah, yeah. so i mean that the story still developing and unfolding as the days go by from what we understand is that it was not public money,

but the fact that you just stashing a lot of dollars, a lot of cash in your house is assigned that this money laundering, you know, and there's some type of criminal activity that's going on. so it's not doing well in terms of building public trust that this government would, that the president himself, e. c. s, was flashing money in his furniture. you know, i'm trying really hard not to laugh, but if i didn't laugh, we would all be crying. all right, so, so we're, i'm oppose a is, is battling corruption allegations. and this is what he told of the public and parliament on june the night. let's have a listen also requires great courage from all of us. in recent days, we're seeing those who stand to lewis the most from the fight against corruption, resorting to better tricks, intimidation, you know,

some good us back to back down, but we will not be deterred by threats of any kind whatsoever. so that puts the present in a very awkward position and certainly opposition parliamentarians are pushing back . so this is from the economic freedom fighter party who on the same date, saudi to hack, hold the president as he was talking about fighting corruption. let's have a listen. let's have a look. ah, yeah, we're going to come for them. well, 44 members of parliament there will be noticed or subtle in does house. you must know use live is going to become uncomfortable because we can use this. hon house to cover up his money laundering activity money. this is a very messy situation because hes a president as well known for sang corruption. i am fighting corruption and then it

almost being undermined by his own activities. allegedly, let's look at what is possible from civil society, south africans. what can they do? because i know that you were, was saying that maybe is how we sought out corruption. we have to hold people accountable. what do you think about whistleblowers? okay, so the 1st thing i need to say here family is that when you look at the corruption perceptions index from transference, international says 20 line teen sort of because corruption perceptions they have, they haven't really changed. we haven't really seen change under our, our, under the current president so that when it comes to whistle blowing, i think it's a very important element of our society that we have. and i think we have to have protection for those people who are willing to come forward and you know, expose corruption in the country that has got out of hand. but i also think that

from a, the change that we can bring us was that i think when the mental it, we think about what we do in the next elections, how do we hold our leaders accountable and those way involvement, corruption, you remove them and give the opportunity to others while is corrupt, which is why not corrupt, give other people the opportunity to come in the country because we've seen the mismanagement of the economy of institutions, the corruption levels, and we are seeing little change from the current present that we have who even at this point, as we've just been sneaking his facing scandals of his own, i want to bring in here to our conversation, cynthia temple, who has her own story to tell about seeing corruption and calling it out. i do. and the transaction working with in south africa, we have to predict disclosure that however,

this does not take issue in the, at the state that we pay. so gave me with lois you. but as lou told us earlier, it's not really about the idea of south africa handling corruption. tapping corruption, it is the political will, there is have a listen. let's have a look. i think government doesn't seem to be taking the class a few months back to the weaknesses people. there's a little blow killed from food, shooting and devoted to commission. and i don't have any major post showing that those people that have been administered. i'm also, again, was again, just dipping in teaching for me to bring the cook to brothers in it's time they

face the consequences. it will also be a good example. show the rest that south africans won't stand for it, it being corruption. moving forward. i feel that this is a moment for me to is my, the south africans can grab onto saying yes we can tackle corruption. it's no impossible to do. so, am i being overly optimistic? final thought. i do think so. the africans across the country are more or less on the same page in terms of fighting corruption. the last time the source of africans come together was calling for the resignation of the former president, jacob zoom. and i think the extent of corruption at the stage is enough to galvanize sub africans across the country because it is only affecting the everyday south africa in terms of service delivery. and just watch the government is able to do for them, which at this point appears to be very little because so much money has been stolen so much has been looted. and so the africans are not benefiting. but also this

issue around the transparency of the state, perhaps that is increased. but we've also saw in the recent months we've seen a survey from afa barometer talk about 53 percent of south african say that corruption has worsened. understood rama poses presidency. and again, the issue of whistle blowers, we do need to see life channels for people to come forward. are so much to talk about whenever we talk about south africa, particularly about how south africa grapples with corruption. thank you for media. thank you, kathy shout. thank you. from loni. as you on you to feel comments and questions i see next time. ah, how do you states control information in china local go. if you tried to search the war tenement, we find it is trying to make the whole country forget how did the narrative improve public opinion. they had life died and that allowed the children to continue to die,

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