sure, as the reason that the president in his party are doing this is because this has been somewhat successful in a really pointing out a vulnerability of the republican party referencing the january 6th attack on the u . s. capital something that many americans were horrified to see it, it's an image that air conjures up a very painful memory for many americans when they felt that democracy was in fact under attack. and so this is something that, the republicans, i feel as a vulnerability, and democrats are seizing on that in advance of the congressional elections, which are now about 8 weeks away. and so this is a deliberate strategy on the part of the democratic party and the white house. now in terms of how this is being weaponized, you've heard it in the president's speech. he says that these mag, of forces are trying to take the country backwards. the president, referencing the recent roe v wade overturning by the supreme court. of course that

is a supreme court were former president, donald trump appointed 3 of the justices. the president biden saying that if there, there is another republican president, you could expect that there would be no right to choose no right to marry. no right to marry who you love referencing perhaps that future court decisions could even mean the overturning of same sex marriage in the united states. essentially what the president is saying is that rights that americans are guaranteed to right now could be under attack. and so. 2 a, well, the presidents doing is really appealing to the fear or in americans that their way of life could be dramatically changed if they do not continue to vote for his party in the upcoming election. kimberly you mentioned just a moment ago about how this seems to be somewhat of a new strategy for president biden. as far as going on the attack directly against some of these maga republicans, i'm, i'm curious about the fact that president biden had promised to unite

a divided country as president. so if he's giving fiery speeches more and more like when he delivered to night, does that deliver on that promise? well, you know, it's something that, in fact, republicans have seized on to say that in fact the joe biden is not delivering on that promise. in fact, we had the republicans give a pre bottle to the president's speech, where they said that the president really needs to apologize to republicans for not keeping that promise. in fact, doing just the opposite, they accused him of dividing demeaning disparaging and really accusing the americans who don't agree with him of outlandish acts. so what they're saying is that they're dividing america would really what they were hoping for is a president that will unite the country. all right, that's kimberly how could our white house correspondent you've been listening to her out of washington? thanks so much. that is continues here. on al jazeera after inside story,

and thanks so much for watching. if you want to see more news, go to our website al jazeera dotcom. ah. how will mikhail go? by chance, they remembered the late soviet liter, sienna, someone who changed the world in the 20th century. but how has that changed shape the world? this is inside story. ah .

hello and welcome to the program. i'm hash barbara. the death of mchale go by. chat is widely being warned as the loss of a champion of freedom who help and the cold war. but the legacy of the last lead of the soviet union is very different at home. why benny view him as the man responsible for its collapse, his passing received a cool response in russia. many people that begun the war in ukraine as necessary to regain some of the power. the former u. s. s. r. last, when it fell, go back have died at the age of 91 in moscow hospital after 2 years of illness under summits reports. i mean, as that as 54 years old mikhail gorbachev became the youngest leader of the soviet union. and he was to be the last few would doubt that he changed the course of 20th century history, although he's revered and respected,

more in the west than in modern russia. one of his biggest achievements was signing a disarmament treaty with you as president ronald reagan that took out a whole class of nuclear weapons. it earned him a noble construct. joe, by sighted this achievement in his tribute describing gorbachev as a man of remarkable vision. he said the result was a safer world and greater freedom from millions of people. antonia garish, the un secretary general said the world has lost a towering global leader. committed multi naturalists and tireless advocate for peace. you commission president ursula van de lion said gorbachev played a crucial role to end the cold war and bring down the iron curtain. it opened the way for a free your gorbachev had a huge impact on the course of world history. he deeply understood reforms were necessary and strove to offer solutions. many russians see him as the man who stood

by the soviet union disintegrated. his legacy is dead. he allowed, or the peaceful collapse of the soviet union. it did not use massive force for keep eastern europe ah, in the empire. and with that, he deserves credit. but it is not that this was sung came in, trying to undermine the system. he tried to reform. gorbachev used perestroika all restructuring to reform, a stagnant economy that had seen people shorter food and consumer goose. and he use glass knolls, openness and freedom of speech that led to parts of the eastern block wising up against communism. it was the beginning of the end of the cold war, one state after the other broke away anglo merkel, former german chancellor spoke in her tribute of the fear in east germany with expectation the tanks would roll in, but quite the contrary,

wasn't long before the pearlin hall came down yet now 30 years old with rushes. invasion of ukraine comes the danger of further east west conflict, sullen a horse lunt, unstable to president putin. russia, and it's president of digging new trenches in europe, and has started a horrible war in ukraine. it's now we think and mikhail gorbachev and got it and realized what he did for our country and all of european gorbachev held as a man of peace as died. it's only when his country is every engage in war. andrew simmons, i'll joseph ah. lettering in our gas in moscow. paval finnegan, har, a defense and military analyst, maria lipman, russian editor and political and a space in moscow until the russian invasion of ukraine. she's now in munich,

germany and in washington dc. donald jensen is the director of russia and strategic stability at the us institute of peace and former u. s. diplomat in moscow. welcome to the program, pavel quite interesting, the way people are divided over the legacy of god. but now we do understand that a president put in won't be attending the funeral. there will be no official state funeral is, is because of the prevailing sentiment in the establishment. and among many russians that this is someone who was very naive in dealing with the west. oh, good, much of was not naive. i mean, i knew the man i, we had a greater number of meetings and discuss different things. he was anything but they of course he may be, his education was a bit, you know, kind of party style going through the ranks of the party. but still, he was

a very shrewd and very effective, both eco operator, which allows him to get to the tops of the russian soviet leadership. and he was not naive. he had ideas, he believed in them. and that's was not only his ideas that was a group of party top officials who wanted to believe that they could change the soviet system much to the better that to it. it was too rigid. that was the running the country into the ground. and that a more enlightened approach would give new impetus to the so yet system which was wrong because and it's well known a bad regime because it gets so often a very dangerous situation and tries to become better bad regime should stay bad working on north korea and then they can stay for

a long time. and what about your believe he could be better? but that didn't work, maria. why, on the other hand, go by chance remained a champion of feed him, particularly for the liberal russians. well, he all remains a chamber champion of freedom, but for a minority, ah, in december last year, if poll asked to russians about amongst important figures of the soviet time in gorbachev in that pole led to the list of figures seed negatively by a majority of russians. he is seen as a person who presided over the collapse of the soviet union. ah, who put an end to what in retro spec, many people see as the ability of the soviet union. he is held responsible from all bath. ah, yes, this feeling ah has remains, i think, steady throughout the years since the collapse of the soviet union. his that he may

be seen as a hero and as a proponent of freedom in eastern europe where he is, he is our contribution is appreciated or in germany, especially in germany. because he facilitated of course the reunification but not in his own country. donald and jose can and one cent that gorbachev was a miracle. why is it that in the west, he's a hero in russia? he is a villain. well i, i very much agree with what pabo and masters are said that he did contribute to the end of the cold war. he, he did a peacefully, he show the value a personal diplomacy in particular were mit, mit with prime minister thatcher and president reagan. but as my 2 colleagues are said, he on least forces and i agree is not, and i was not naive. he and leave torsos by these let's say, middle ran through forms that, that we're dealing with even even today. and i that the paradox of how he's

perceived in east and west is at 1st causally. but it ends up really being a part of the same same change, same transformation, and european security that he help leave. and he does deserve credit for that. on the other hand, i think that we have to be very careful not to lie and eyes him. he was a communist. he was a reformed communist or whatever you want to call it. but i would have to be careful to go back to the error and it coincided almost exactly with the beginning of my foreign service career. so i remember very clearly that he was not a democrat, as people often said, even this week he was not a democrat. he was a believer in a better soviet union as pablo and marcia said at that something that for us in the west at the time was very difficult to understand. puzzles, could you explain to us that the very nature of the relationship between po 10 and

go by check, because somehow you get a sense that put in was always very cautious in choosing the right words to describe our qualify global have and go back over the same time was very cautious in his criticism. addressed at, put in hello barbara bentley tried to kind of boob relationships with a portion of it does not very successful in bulletin. didn't want him anywhere close or in any position of influence of any sorts on that book. in the old, his power to baris yeltsin, who picks him together with his aunt entourage as a successor and put in as basically continuing the yeltsin. russia as it was both under yeltsin. and then it's kind of a girl who came in put gorbachev was

a sworn enemies. they were with yeltsin and put into miss some extent and her to that. and also right now when gorbachev passed a huge in is fighting a se acidic savage war in ukraine actually to remake what it seen as gorbachev made going. much of presided over the collapse of the soviet union. boucher was trying to bow that back. you buy a blood and steel. so it's not that there's nothing strange that the, the, the president crap one and gorbachev had lukewarm relationships. ah, he was not denounced officially by the cram window program when forces did denounce him as a traitor and so on. but he's also no hero and he's not, i'm glad yeltsin who hand of course a state very much a funeral. gorbachev would be a much more private affair. again,

maybe his family also didn't want to be us. they few a funeral to at south korea right now. ok, maria, the 2021 pulled that you spoke about which qualified to go, but have as the worst political leader in russia in the twin see as century. is it mainly because of the perception that the a, his policies introduce the collapse of the soviet union, which was described by putting as the greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the central was because people think that he failed in delivering on political, under economic reforms. well, it retro stepped are the soviet time on and especially the late soviet decades are seen by the russian people, not overwhelming labor on by m maturity as a good time as all the time when the states took care of the people who in the

relations between the amount people on was kind and more humane than to day when people thought less about money. and of course when things were stable in people could rely on the habitual safety nets. and gorbachev is blamed for actually, undermining all that i would, i would add a just a couple of words to what my bill said about gorbachev in an important to put in a gorbachev is almost a traitor. ah, because he gave up on the gains territorial insulated coal. ah, that were made by his, for the sisters, by giving in and giving up control over eastern europe and then presiding over the collapse of the soviet union and sell but best foot into 2 people. i think it's more about how he put in the end of that period that is seen today almost as he, golden era in the soviet history done on the fact that he managed,

along with ronald reagan to scrub the entire class of nuclear weapons in eastern europe. could that be seen as his biggest political contribution? well, i might have why said that, as you know, that i was an inspector on treating myself personally but, but it really is no longer in existence. so it was a, a major contribution at the time that lasted for several decades. there were innovations and that's really not most notably on site inspections that now was under a cloud given the, the, the drift and dismiss, increasing distrust between the 2 countries and other geopolitical factors such as the rise of china, which have made that kind of ours control somewhat obsolete bother was go by serve in a way or another a victim because the hard line communists starting from the late eighty's,

were colluding, working hard to try to discredit him because they did understand that if he stood it stayed in power, they will lose all the privileges they have been having for quite some time. well, it was matters though that straightforward when the reagan and the garbage general began to and the kind of worst part of the cold war and agree on nuclear disarmament treaties. gorbachev had full support of the russian military, soviet, military, and most of the ruined communist dewey. they were still so frightened by the american u. o and based cruise missiles tomahawks and by the pershing twos. they were so afraid that they haven't won't have enough time to reach their bunkers if the american southern way attack and the eldest came to exchange of nuclear blows and

83 during a bow archer exercises. so when a reagan put forward the 0 option that was seized in moscow, and that was not just gorbachev single handedly, it was the russian general soviet generals that everyone behind it. and when he began this, sir, his appearance tried can blast a statue. he also began who's carina, which means swiftness that was that and that was increasing dramatically the production of weapons and procurement of weapons. so he was playing on all the fields and he had a lot of support. the real that will, but the system began to disintegrate. he cannot mclee because also the price of oil co apps and then the, the 3rd he turned out to be ice away in the end, when a different parts have been, so a russian. so yet, the week decided that without the soviet union,

they'll be better off that they can privatize a publicly owned factories and oil fields. and that, that we much better. so even in the communist party, i mean, it disintegrated that almost 20000000 members of disintegrated with whimper. not no one was really of march about ideology. it was about doing up the soviet bye. ok. maria. so this is some, one heard did understand that the political and economic structure of the soviet union could not stand any long and that it was about time for change. what happened later is what people are still debating. did hillock the courage to implement the reforms or ultimately he was isolated, unable to undo on his own an empire of its own. well, i would say a gorbachev. oh,

him be celebrated for good intentions and for his belief in freedom and for the fact that he actually r a got away from centuries long tradition of the overwhelming control of the state . but he had wrong ideas about so many things, including the economy. and he thought that somehow soviet socialist economy would be preserved, but reformed wrong on here. he totally underestimated the nationalist dr. ah, he underestimated. i think many things about foreign policy as well. not realizing that sylvia retreat would meet with me in the advance of the west, a needle. ah, but economically it was something that was held immediately because people were people in the soviet union, this puzzle said were overwhelmingly supportive to begin with. log what gorbachev

was saying, but when the reforms began in things were falling apart. so many people grow disappointed and i think later on they resented themselves with being so naive than believing that change was possible if only of entrusted their new leader. but instead of resenting themselves, they are, i think now have very negative feeling. so in order to shelf donald, so this is someone who wanted to introduce reforms. but at the same time he wanted, he was adamant about the need to send tanks to the baltic states until as i begun to come down on the professor's, was it just because we failed to understand the very nature over the very character over go. but if i say exact, marsha and powell are very correct, it was he cracked down in the baltic. as you just said, he tried to deal with the forces he unleashed himself,

which led to boris yeltsin. ultimately to buy the mer brewton is sent this, this russian nationalist, which had been suppressed by the soviet regime. and we have to keep that whole complex picture in mind as well. he could not any longer maneuver once he also won, won the leadership that support of most of the russian population. but i wanted to add one more point we haven't talked about, which is to say that i think the west fundamentally misunderstood what was going on at the time just as we misunderstood what was going on. and i, the one seeing it primarily as a democratic, great through against the soviet regime. it was not, it was much more complicated phenomenon than that and not as possible to serve the issue of communist party money. soviet money which was sloshing around the system in the mid eighties in the late eighty's and ultimately, which gave rise to the oligarchs and all, many of the other corrupt unpleasantness. we see now corrupt by comparison,

even with the corrupt past, the u. s. and the west had really trouble understanding this and thus i think we misunderstood gorbachev. and what was happening just as we misunderstood. ok, yeltsin a parent truck. 91. i have a few other angles to cover with you that pavel go about. chill said is with it was about time to put out from afghanistan and many thought this was going to reshape foreign policy. now putting it is launching a war in the ukraine and many are saying this is just exactly what go back to fear, which was an expansionist policy that with wet and the very stability of the international order. well, i would say when i rushing, the afghan did almost a decade of war began. we were actually lucky because instead of going to war with may do in europe, we went into afghanistan and got on the nose, kind of

a red and blue bleeding. and then went out, and it was became clear that we're not ready for a big war. and this time again, for more than 10 years, russia was building up its armed forces for a big war in europe. then they sent them into crane, believing that failed, overrun it very swiftly, and that's why the pentagon and, and the in the with believe to but that didn't happen again. we're lucky because we're not, we're fighting a proxy war as the one in, again, is on a proxy war and ukraine, instead of fighting a direct big a war in europe. i know european war maria. lucky and how we that's going to end up like the or afghan russian adventure by something less the until 2 o'clock holocaust. murray. are there any russians who would tell you that you know what, but ultimately had we not to hot someone like a like how we not had someone like the go. but if there was absolutely no way we

would be talking about political parties and freedom of expression in place like russia. hello, this is certainly true on board. the child, indeed believed in freedom and indeed believed in election, even though it was not entirely democratic election. those that he presided over, he never ever wanted to be elected himself and partial about that lasted not for a long time in this raises the issue of whether indeed, or bishop was an anomaly. because we are now back to the century, is long russian political tradition on the overwhelming, centralized control. ok. donald, whether or not this a good bunch of was really adamant about the need to reform the soviet union or to dismantle it. how do you see his legacy in the future? would it live on or returning the chapter of the man and his legacy at the same time? well,

i will give you an answer. absolutely opposite to what i would have answered 5 years ago, or maybe even on february 23rd. i think that his legacy will fade, just like the memory of the coo and its collapse, favor it with many russians because what came afterward was in many ways, much more unpleasant than what they saw under even bresner. and so i think it will fade, but i think in the west he will be continued to be revered as a man who did did advanced peace and security of europe, such as it was at least until february 23rd. thank you. thank you. doug jensen, level thinking, ha marie, elephant a really appreciated and i thank you and thank you for watching. you can see the program again anytime by visiting our website elses isla dot com for further discussion. go to our facebook page. that's facebook dot com, forward slash ha inside slowly. you can also join the conversation with our hand that is at a j inside. so, for me hush,

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