right, pick up at least according to the polls, would say that more than 50 percent until you are likely to vote against the new constitution. that's because many people fear that it is random a little hard that it was to a vague and open to interpretation. if there was no, no, no, no. i'm going to vote we did, because i think the disco sufficiently bites to it separates us. i think we need to write a new, better one for marla. oh, either way, for the 1st time in decades, it voting will be at mandatory here in chile, which means that there will be millions of young people never voted before will all have to weigh in on the new constitution. so right now it is impossible to really say what is going to happen on sunday when jillions go to the old. ah

ha again, i'm fully back to the boat with the headlines on al jazeera, some breaking use in a myanmar quarter sentence. britain's former ambassador to one year in jail over a visa breach vicky bomb and was accused of staying at an unregistered address outside a home city of young gone. her husband has also been jailed for one year for helping her more. also, myanmar, the i'll said liter uncensored, she has been sentenced to 3 years jail for electoral fraud in 2020. the military rulers say they found evidence of at least $11000000.00 cases of photo front. independent observers did not find any major irregularities. in argentina, a man has been detained after trying to shoot vice president. christina fernandez the kitchener as she was greeting supporters outside her home in when osiris the president declared friday a national holiday in response to the incident. katie, the dear argentine people today a little after 2100 hours a man made an attempt against the life of our current vice president and twice

president, christina fernandez to courage, nor this is the most serious event we have gone through since argentina returned to democracy in the context of a massive presence of people outside the vice president, his home, a man aimed at her head with the firearm and pulled the trigger. christina remains alive because of a reason that is yet to be confirm. technically, the weapon that had 5 bullets did not fire despite being triggered or not. us present, joe biden has accused his predecessor, donald trump, and the republicans to support him of threatening democracy. biden has warned, they want to take the country backwards and urge voters to reject what he call the extremism. the head of the un nuclear watched on has warned that the physical integrity of europe's largest nuclear power plant has been violated because of the war in ukraine. raphael gross, the scene finally inspected the fabric plant on thursday, and southern pakistan is bracing for even more floods as a 3rd of water hedge down the in this river record monsoon range and melting

glaciers have triggered floods that have killed nearly 1200 people since june, about a 3rd of the country is under water. those are the headlines up next on al jazeera, it's inside story. they would surely is going to the polls in a historic attempt to change its constitution. 50000000 people are eligible to choose between a wealth of state and strength and rights. to keep a constitution adopted under the dictatorship of augusta. finishing julie referendum on al jazeera. ah, will mikhail gorbachev? they remembered the late soviet leaders seen as someone who changed the world in the 20th century. but how has that changed shape the world? this is inside story. ah

hello and welcome to the program. i'm hash barbara the death of mikhail gorbachev is widely being warned as the loss of a champion of freedom who help and the cold war. but the legacy of the last leader, the soviet union, is very different at home. when benny view him as the man responsible for its collapse, his passing received a cool response in russia. many people there began the war in ukraine as necessary to regain some of the power. the former u. s. s. r. last, when it fell, go back have died at the age of 91 in moscow hospital. after 2 years of illness. under summits reports. i got 54 years old mikhail gorbachev became the youngest leader of the soviet union. and he was to be the last few would doubt that he changed the course of 20th century history, although he is revered and respected more in the west than in modern russia. one of

his biggest achievements was signing a disarmament treaty with you as president ronald reagan that took out a whole class of nuclear weapons. it earned him a nobel prize. jo by cited this achievement in his tribute describing gorbachev as a man of remarkable vision. he said the result was a safer world and greater freedom from millions of people. antonio garish, the un secretary general, said the world has lost a towering global leader. committed multi naturalists and tireless advocate for peace. you commission president ursula van de lion said gorbachev played a crucial role to end the cold war and bring down the iron curtain. it opened the way for a free your gorbachev had a huge impact on the course of world history. he deeply understood reforms were necessary and strove to offer solutions. many russians see him as the man who stood

by the soviet union disintegrated. his legacy is dead. he allowed, or the peaceful collapse of the soviet union did not use massive force or keep eastern europe. ah, in the empire, and with that, he deserves credit. but it is not that this was sung came in, trying to undermine the system. he tried to reform. gorbachev, used perestroika or restructuring to reform, a stagnant economy that had seen people shorter food and consumer goose. and he use glass knolls, openness and freedom of speech that led to parts of the eastern block wising up against communism. it was the beginning of the end of the cold war, one state after the other broke away anglo merkel, former german chancellor spoke in her tribute of the fear in east germany with expectation the tanks would roll in, but quite the contrary,

wasn't long before the pearlin hall came down yet now 30 years on with russia's invasion of ukraine comes danger of further east west conflict on an, a horse london devil to president putin. russia and its president of digging new trenches in europe and have started a horrible war in ukraine. it's now we think and mikhail gorbachev got it and realized what he did for our country and all of juris gorbachev held as a man of peace has died at a time when his country is every engage in war. and ru simmons al jazeera ah lettering in our gas in moscow. pavel fagan hire a defense and military analyst, maria lipman, russian editor and political annexed based in moscow until the russian invasion of ukraine. she's now in munich, germany,

and in washington dc. donald jensen is the director of russia and strategic stability of the us institute of peace and former u. s. diplomat in moscow. welcome to the program. pavel quite interesting, the way people are divided over the legacy. oh, of god. but you have, now we do understand that a president put in won't be attending the funeral. there will be no official state funeral is, is because of the prevailing sentiment in the establishment. and among many russians that this is someone who was very naive in dealing with the west. oh, good, much off was not naive. i mean, i knew the man i, we had a great number of meetings in discuss different things. he was anything but ne, of course he may be, his education was a bit, you know, kind of party style going through the rank. so the party, but still he was

a very shrewd and very effective political operator, which allows him to get to the tops of the russian soviet leadership. and he was not naive. he had ideas, he believed in them. and that was not only his ideas, that was a group of party top officials who wanted to believe that they could change the soviet system much to the better that to it. it was too rigid that was running the country into the ground and that a more enlightened approach would give new impetus to the so yet system which was wrong because and it's well known a bad regime because it gets self in a very dangerous situation and tries to become better, bad regime should stay bad working on north korea and then they can stay for

a long time. and what about your believe he will be better but that didn't work, maria. why, on the other hand, go bunch. have remained a champion of freedom, particularly for the liberal russians. well, he all remains a champ champion of freedom, but for a minority, ah, in december last year, it poll asked to russians, amongst important figures of the soviet time in gorbachev, in that pole lived the list of figure is seen negatively by a majority of russians. he is seen as a person who presided over the collapse of the soviet union. ah, will put an end to what for in retro spec, many people see as the ability of the soviet union. he is held responsible for all that. ah young though this feeling ah, has remains, i think, steady throughout the years since the collapse of the soviet union. his that he may

be seen as a hero and as a proponent of freedom in eastern europe where he is, he is our contribution is appreciated or in germany, especially in germany. because he facilitated of course the reunification but not in his own country. donald and jose can and one cent that gorbachev was a miracle. why is it that in the west, he's a hero in russia? he is a villain. well i, i very much agree with went pabo and masters are said that he did contribute to the end of the cold war. he, he did a peacefully, he show the value of personal diplomacy in particular were met with prime minister thatcher and president reagan. but as my 2 colleagues are said, he on least forces and i agree is not, and i was not naive. he and leave torsos by these let's say, middle ran through forms that, that were dealing with even even today. and i that the paradox of how he's

perceived in east and west is a 1st causally. but it ends up really being a part of the same same change, same transformation, and european security that he help leave. and he does deserve credit for that. on the other hand, i think that we have to be very careful not to lie and eyes him. he was a communist. he was a reform communist or whatever you want to call it. but i would have to be careful to go back to the error and it coincided almost exactly with the beginning of my foreign service career. so i remembered very clearly that he was not a democrat, as people often said, even this week he was not a democrat. he, i was a believer in a better soviet union as possible. and marcia said, and that's something you have for us in the west at the time, was very difficult to understand. puzzled, could you explain to us that the very nature of the relationship between po 10 and

go by check. because somehow you get a sense that putting was always very cautious in choosing the right words to describe our qualify global heaven. going back over the same time was very cautious in his criticism addressed at put in i will go the show. bentley tried to kind of boost their relationships with a portion of it does not very successful in bulletin. didn't want him anywhere close or any position of influence of any sorts. that book in the owes his power to various yeltsin who pictured him together with his ent entourage as a successor and put in as basically continuing the yeltsin. russia as it was both under yeltsin. and then it kind of a came in put, gorbachev was

a sworn enemy, they were with yeltsin and put into miss some extent and her to that. and also right now when gorbachev passed a boot in his fighting a say as to that savage war in ukraine actually to remake what it seen as gorbachev made gordon much off presided till the collapse of the soviet union. fujen is trying to build that back. you buy a blood and steel cell. it's not that there's nothing strange that the the, the president crammed one and gorbachev had lukewarm relationships. ah, he was not denounced officially by the cram window program when forces did denounce him as a traitor and so on. but he's also no hero and he's not, i'm glad yeltsin who hand of course a state very much a funeral. gorbachev would be a much more private affair. again,

maybe his family also didn't wanted to be us. they few a few narrow to. it's not clear right now. okay. maria, the, the, the 2021 pulled that you spoke about which qualified to go, but to have as the worst political leader in russia, in the twin see as century. is it mainly because of the perception that the a, his policies introduce the collapse of the soviet union, which was described by putting as the greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the center. or just because people think that he failed in delivering on political, under economic reforms. well, it retro stepped, are the soviet time on and especially the late soviet decades are seen by the russian people. not overwhelming labor on by a majority as a good time. ah, as all the time when the states took care of the people who in or their relations

between the amount people on was kind and more humane than to day when people thought less about money. and of course, when things are stable and people would rely on the habitual safety nets. and gorbachev is blamed for actually, undermining all that i would, i would add a just a couple of words to what 5 and said about gorbachev in an important to put in a gorbachev is almost a trade there. ah, because he gave up on the gain steri thorough and political ah, that were made by his, for the sisters by giving in and giving up control over eastern europe and then presiding over the collapse of the soviet union, our cell, but best foot into 2 people i think it's more about how he put in the end of that period that is seen to day almost elsie golden era in the soviet history

done on the fact that he managed, along with ronald reagan to scrub the entire class of nuclear weapons in eastern europe. could that be seen as his biggest political contribution? well, i might have why said that, as you know, that i was an inspector on the treating myself personally but, but, but really is no longer in existence. so it was a, a major contribution at the time that lasted for several decades. there were innovations and that's really not most notably on site inspections that now was under a cloud given the, the, the drift and dismiss, increasing distrust between the 2 countries and other geopolitical factors such as the rise of china, which have made that kind of arms control somewhat obsolete bother was go, but serve in a way or another, a victim because the hard line communists starting from the late eighty's,

were colluding, working hard to try to discredit him because they did understand that if he stood it stayed in power, they will lose all the privileges they have been having for quite some time. well, it was my 1st though that straightforward. when the reagan and the garbage general began to and the kind of worst part of the cold war and agree on nuclear disarmament treaties. gorbachev had full support of the russian military, soviet, military, and most of the ruling communists. they were still so frightened by the american you. oh, and based cruise missiles tomahawks and by the pershing twos, they were so afraid that they haven't won't have enough time to reach their bunkers . if the american subway attack and the else came through exchange of nuclear roles

and 83 during able ensure exercises. so when a reagan put forward the 0 option that was seized in moscow, and that was not just gorbachev single handedly, it was the russian general, soviet general staff, everyone behind it. and when he began this, sir, his appearance tried can blast a statue. he also began who's carina, which means swiftness that was the and that was increasing dramatically the production of weapons and procurement of weapons. so he was playing on all the fields and he had a life of support. the real that will, but the system began to disintegrate. he cannot mclee because also the price of oil co ops. and then the 3rd, he turned out to be isolated in the end, when a different parts of been. so a russian. so yet, the week decided that without the soviet union,

there would be better off if they can privatize a publicly owned factories and oil fields. and that, that we much better. so even in the communist party, i mean, it disintegrated that almost 20000000 members. it disintegrated with a boom whimper. not no one was really much about ideology. it was about doing up the soviet by hawking, maria. so this is some, one heard did understand that the political and economic structure of the soviet union could not stand any long. and that it was about time for change. what happened later is what people are still debating, did hillock, the courage to implement the reforms, or ultimately he was isolated, unable to undo on his own an empire of its own. well, i would say

a gorbachev on him to celebrated for good intentions and for his belief in freedom and for the fact that he actually r a got away from centuries long tradition of the overwhelming control of the state . but he had wrong ideas about so many things, including the economy. a key thought found somehow soviet socialist economy would be preserved, but reformed wrong on here, he'd totally underestimated the nationalist dr. ah, he underestimated. i think many things about foreign policy as well. not realizing that sylvia retreat would meet with me in advance of the west and nieto. ah, but economically it was something that was held immediately because people were people in the soviet union, this puzzle said were overwhelmingly supportive to begin with. log what gorbachev

was saying. but when the reforms began in, things were falling apart. so many people grew disappointed and i think later on they resented themselves were being so naive than believing that change was possible if only of entrusted their new leader. but instead of resenting themselves, they are, i think now have very negative feeling. so in order shelf donald, so this is someone who wanted to introduce reforms, but at the same time he wanted, he was adamant about the need to send tanks to the baltic states until as i begun to clam down on the professor's. was it just because we failed to understand the very nature over the very character over go. but if i say exact, marsha and powell are very correct. it was he cracked down in the baltic as you just said. he tried to deal with the forces he unleashed himself,

which led to boris yeltsin ultimately to vladimir putin, is sent this, this russian nationalism which had been suppressed by the soviet regime. and we have to keep that whole complex picture in mind as well. he could not any longer maneuver once he also won, won the leadership that support of most of the russian population. but i wanted to add one more point we haven't talked about, which is to say that i think the west fundamentally misunderstood what was going on at the time just as we misunderstood what was going on. and i, the one seeing it primarily as a democratic, great through against the soviet regime. it was not, it was much more complicated. phenomenon than that and not as problems are said. the issue of communist party money, soviet money, which was sloshing around the system in the mid eighties in the late eighty's and ultimately, which gave rise to the oligarchs and all, many of the other corrupt unpleasantness we see now corrupt by comparison,

even with the corrupt past the u. s. and the west had really trouble understanding this and thus i think we misunderstood gorbachev. and what was happening just as we misunderstood. ok, you all sent a parent truck 91. i have the other angus to cover with you that puzzle. go by, chill said is with it was about time to put out from afghanistan and many thought this was going to reshape foreign policy. now putting it is launching a war in the ukraine and many are saying this is just exactly what go back to fear, which was an expansionist policy that with threatened the various turbidity of the international order. well, i would say wouldn't be no russian. the afghan didn't almost a decade of war began. we were actually lucky because instead of going to war with may do in europe, we went into afghanistan and got on the nose, kind of

a red and blue bleeding and then went out. and it was became clear that we're not ready for a big war. and this time again, for a more than 10 years, russia was building up its armed forces for a big war in europe. then they sent them into crane. believing that failed, overrun it very swiftly, and that's why the pentagon and, and the in the with bleed to. but that didn't happen again, we're lucky because we're not, we're fighting a proxy war as the one in the against on proxy war and ukraine, instead of fighting a direct big a war in europe. i know european war maria lucky and we that's going to end up like the or afghan russian adventure by something less the tilt. okay. hor cost. maria, are there any russians who would tell you that? you know, as much ultimately had we not to hot someone like a like how we not had someone like the go. but if there was absolutely no way we

would be talking about political parties and freedom of expression in place like russia. hello. this is certainly true on board the child, indeed believed in freedom and indeed believe in election, even though it was not entirely democratic election, those that he presided over. he never ever wanted to be elected himself in a popular vote. that lasted not for a long time in this raises the issue of whether indeed or bishop was an anomaly. because we are now back to the century, is long russian political tradition on the overwhelming centralized control. ok. donald, whether or not this a good bunch of was really adamant about the need to reform the soviet union or to dismantle it. how do you see his legacy in the future? would it live on or are we turning the chapter of the man and his legacy at the same time? well,

i will give you an answer. absolutely opposite to what i would have answered 5 years ago, or maybe even on february 23rd. i think that his legacy will fade, just like the memory of the coo and its collapse, favor it with many russians because what came afterward was in many ways, much more unpleasant than what they saw under even bresner. and so i think it will fade, but i think in the west he will be continued to be revered as a man who did did advanced peace and security of europe, such as it was at least until february 23rd. thank you. thank you. doug jensen, level thinking, ha, maria lipman, a really appreciate it, and i thank you and thank you for watching. you can see the program again anytime by visiting our website elses yellow dot com for further discussion. go to our facebook page. that's facebook dot com, forward slash ha inside slowly, you can also join the conversation. twitter al 100 is at ha inside, sorry for me hush,

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