least according to the polls would say that more than 50 percent of children are likely to vote against the new constitution. that's because many people fear that it is total rateable. let it go so far that it was a vague and open to interpretation. if i was assured no, no, no to no, no, i'm going to vote we did because i think the disco sufficiently bytes to it separates us. i think we need to write a new better one. i would, oh, either way, for the 1st time in decades, it voting will be a mandatory here in chile, which means that there will be millions of young people never voted before will all have to weigh in on the new constitution. so right now it is impossible to really say what is going to happen on sunday when jillions go low? ah, her again, i'm fully batty boy. with the headlines on al jazeera,

a man has been detained after trying to shoot argentina's vice president as she was trying to reach supporters at her home. and when osiris the president has declared friday a national holiday in response to the incident, at least 20 people, including a high profile cleric, had been killed in a blast in afghan. his son, it happened near historic mosque in the western city of herat. dozens of people were injured in the attack, the u. n's. atomic watchdog says 2 of his inspectors will stay at these operations nuclear plant on a permanent basis. on thursday, the team said they're worried for the integrity of the facility in southern ukraine . i wore it, i wally and i will continue to be worried about the blunt, unseen. we have a secretion which is more stable, which is more predictable. it is obvious that the plant and the physical integrity of the blunt has been blinded several times by chance. by deliberation,

accordingly and more has sentence, i'll said, leader anson, so cheap to 3 years jail for electoral fraud in 2020 the military rulers say they found evidence of at least 11000000 cases of voter fraud in the election as to cheese party one independent observers. did not find any major irregularities. she's already been jailed for 17 years on separate charges including corruption and man mars john to has also jailed britain, his former ambassador to a country for one year over a visa breach. vicky bauman was arrested a week ago. her husband is a prominent artist and activists, and was also sentenced to a year for helping her breach immigration rules. and india's government has commissioned its 1st domestically produce aircraft carrier as it expands its naval fleet to keep up with regional rival, china. prime minister and remedy attended a ceremony, marking the event in the coastal city of coaches. the ins we current is the largest warship ever built in india and can carry 1600 crew and 30 aircraft it took 17

years to construct and test. those are the headlines on al jazeera coming up next year. it's inside story. stay with us. ah, how will mikhail go by chance they remembered the late soviet liter, sienna, someone who changed the world in the 20th century. but how has that changed shape the world? this is inside story. ah .

hello and welcome to the program. i'm hash barbara the death of mikhail gorbachev is widely being warned as the loss of a champion of freedom who help and the cold war. but the legacy of the last lead of the soviet union is very different at home. why benny view him as the man responsible for its collapse, his passing received a cool response in russia. many people that began the war in ukraine as necessary to regain some of the power. the former u. s. s. r. last, when it fell, go back have died at the age of 91 in moscow hospital after 2 years of illness. under summits reports. i mean, as like as 54 years old mikhail gorbachev became the youngest lever of the soviet union. and he was to be the last few would doubt that he changed the course of 20th century history, although he's revered and respected,

more in the west than in modern russia. one of his biggest achievements was signing a disarmament treaty with you as president ronald reagan that took out a whole class of nuclear weapons. it earned him a nobel prize. jo by cited this achievement in his tribute describing gorbachev as a man of remarkable vision. he said the result was a safer world and greater freedom from millions of people. antonia guitarist the un secretary general, said the world has lost a towering global leader. committed multi naturalists and tireless advocate for peace. you commission president s lavonne de lion said gorbachev played a crucial role to end the cold war and bring down the iron curtain. it opened the way for a free your gorbachev had a huge impact on the course of world history. he deeply understood reforms were necessary and strove to offer solutions. many russians see him as the man who stood

by the soviet union disintegrated. his legacy is dead. he allowed, or the peaceful collapse of the soviet union did not use massive force or keep eastern europe. ah, in the empire, and with that, he deserves credit. but it is not that this was sung came in, trying to undermine the system. he tried to reform. gorbachev, used perestroika or restructuring to reform, a stagnant economy that had seen people shorter food and consumer goose. and he use glass knolls, openness and freedom of speech that led to parts of the eastern block wising up against communism. it was the beginning of the end of the cold war, one state after the other broke away anglo merkel, former german chancellor spoke in her tribute of the fear in east germany with expectation the tanks would roll in, but quite the contrary,

wasn't long before the pearlin hall came down yet now 30 years on with rushes. invasion of ukraine comes the danger of further east west conflict. sullen a horse lunk on step also to president putin. russia, and it's president of digging new trenches in europe and has started a horrible warren ukraine. it's now we think and mikhail gorbachev got it and realized what he did for our country and all of juris gorbachev held as a man of peace as died. it's only when his country is every engage in war. andrew simmons. how joseph ah lettering in our gas in moscow, pavel fagan har, a defense and military analyst, maria lipman, russian editor and political annexed based in moscow until the russian invasion of ukraine. she's now in munich,

germany and in washington dc. donald jensen is the director of russia and strategic stability at the us institute of peace and former u. s. diplomat in moscow. welcome to the program, pavel quite interesting, the way people are divided over the legacy of god. but now we do understand that a president put in won't be attending the funeral. there will be no official state funeral is, is because of the prevailing sentiment in the establishment. and among many russians that this is someone who was very naive in dealing with the west. oh good. but it was not naive. i mean, i knew the man i, we had a greater number of meetings in discuss different things. he was anything, but of course he may be his education was a bit here now kind of party style going through the ranks of the party. but still,

he was a very shrewd and very effective, both the co operator, which allows him to get to the tops of the russian soviet leadership. and he was not naive. he had ideas, he believed in them. and that was not only his ideas, that was a group of party top officials who wanted to believe that they could change the soviet system much to the better that to it. it was too rigid that that was the running the country into the ground. and that more and weren't approach would give new impetus to the so yet system which was wrong because and it's well known a bad regime because it gets so often a very dangerous situation and tries to become better bad regime should stay bad working on north korea and then they can stay for

a long time and what you believe he will be better. but that didn't work, maria. why, on the other hand, go by chance remained a champion of freedom, particularly for the liberal russians. well, he all remains a chamber champion of freedom, but for a minority, ah, in december last year, if poll asked to russians amongst important figures of the soviet time in the gorbachev, in that pole led to the list of figures seed negatively by a majority of russians. he is seen as a person who presided over the collapse of the soviet union. ah, who put an end to what in retro spec, many people see as the ability of the soviet union is held responsible for all that . ah, yes, this feeling a has remains. i think, steady throughout the years since the collapse of the soviet union. he's that he

may be seen as a hero and as a proponent of freedom in eastern europe where he is, he is our contribution is appreciated or in germany, especially in germany. because he facilitated of course, theory unit vacation, but not in his own country. donald and jose can and one cent that gorbachev was a miracle. why is it that in the west, he's a hero in russia? he is a villain. well i, i very much agree with what paula masters are said that he did contribute to the end of the cold war. he, he did a peacefully, he show the value of personal diplomacy in particular were met with crime. mister thatcher and president reagan. but as my 2 colleagues are said, he i'm least quarters and i agree is not, and i was not naive. he and leave torsos by these let's say, middle ran through forms that, that we're dealing with even even today. and i that the paradox of how he's

perceived in east and west is at 1st counseling. but it ends up really being a part of the same same change, same transformation, and european security that he help lee and, and he does deserve credit for that. on the other hand, i think that we have to be very careful not to lie and eyes him. he was a communist. he was a reform communist or whatever you want to call it. but i would have to be careful to go back to the error and it coincided almost exactly with the beginning of my foreign service career. so i remember it very clearly that he was not a democrat, as people often said, even this week he was not a democrat. he, i was a believer in a better soviet union as possible. and marcia said, and that's something that for us in the west at the time, was very difficult to understand public. could you explain to us that the very nature of the relationship between po 10 and go by check. because somehow you get

a sense that put in was always very cautious in choosing the right words to describe our qualify global have and go back to the same time was very cautious in his criticism addressed at put in i will go over. sure. bentley tried to kind of boot relationships with a portion of it does not very successful in bulletin, didn't want him anywhere close or in any position of influence of any sorts on that book in the old, his power to baris yeltsin, who picks him together with his aunt entourage as a successor and put in as basically continuing the yeltsin, russia as it was both under yeltsin and then it kind of. ready a girl who came in put good much off was

a sworn enemies. they were with to yeltsin and put into miss some extent and her to that. and also right now when gorbachev passed are a huge in this fighting a say, a city savage war in ukraine actually to remake what it seen as gorbachev made going much of presided over the collapse of the soviet union. boucher was trying to build that back. you buy a blood and steel. so it's not that there's nothing strange that the, the, the president crowd, one and gorbachev had lukewarm relationships. ah, he was not denounced officially by the crammed window program when forces did denounce him as a traitor and so on. but he's also no hero and he's not, i'm glad yeltsin. who had of course, a state very much a funeral. gorbachev would be a much more private affair. again,

maybe his family also didn't want to be us. they few a funeral to at south korea right now. okay. maria, the 2021 pulled that you spoke about which qualified to go, but have as the worst political leader in russia in the twin is century. is it mainly because of the perception that the a, his policies introduce the collapse of the soviet union, which was described by putting as the greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the central was because people think that he failed in delivering on political and economic reforms. well, it retro stepped, are the soviet time on and especially the late soviet decades are seen by the russian people. not overwhelmingly, but by a majority. as a good time, as all the time when the states still care of the people who in or their relation

between the amount people on was kind and more humane than to day when people thought less about money. and of course, when things are stable and people would rely on the habitual safety nets. and gorbachev is blamed for actually, undermining all that i would, i would add a just a couple of words to what 5 him said about gorbachev in put in to put in a gorbachev is almost a traitor. ah, because he gave up on the gain, stary torino and political odd that were made by his predecessors, by giving in and giving up control over eastern europe and then presiding over the collapse of the soviet union, a cell, but best foot into 2 people. i think it's more about how he put in the end of that period that is seen today almost as he, golden era in the soviet history done on the fact that he managed,

along with ronald reagan to scrub the entire class of nuclear weapons in houston, europe, could that be seen as his biggest political contribution? well, i might have why said that, as you know, that i was an inspector on treating myself personally but, but the treaties no longer in existence. so it was a, a major contribution at the time that lasted for several decades. there were innovations and that's really most notably on site inspections that now was under a cloud given the, the, the drift and dismiss, increasing distrust between the 2 countries and other geopolitical factors such as the rise of china, which have made that kind of arms control somewhat obsolete bother was go, but serve in a way or another, a victim because the hard line communists starting from the late eighty's,

were colluding, working hard to try to discredit him because they did understand that if he stood it stayed in power, they will lose all the privileges they have been having for quite some time. well, it was not 1st though that straightforward. when the reagan and the garbage old began to and the kind of worst part of the cold war and agree on nuclear disarmament treaties. gorbachev had full support of the russian military, soviet, military, and most of the ruined communist story. they were still so frightened by the american u. o and based cruise missiles tomahawks and by the pershing twos, they were so afraid that they would have long won't have enough time to reach their bunkers. if the american subway attack and the eldest came to exchange of nuclear

blows and $83.00 during a bow. archer exercises, so when a reagan put forward the 0 option that was seized in moscow and that was not just gorbachev single handedly. it was the russian general, soviet general staff, everyone behind it. and when he began this, sir, his appearance tried, can blast a statue. he also began who's carina, which means swiftness that was the and that was increasing dramatically the production of weapons and procurement of weapons. so he was playing on all the fields and he had a lot of support. the real that will but the system began the disintegrating command mclee because also the price of oil co ops and then the, the, the heat. it turned out to be ice away in the end, when a different parts have been, so a russian. so yet, the week decided that without the soviet union,

they'll be better off that they can private eyes, a publicly owned factories and oil fields, and that, that we much better. so even in the communist party, i mean, it disintegrated that almost 20000000 members of disintegrated with whimper. not no one was really of march about ideology. it was about doing up the soviet bye. ok. maria. so this is some, one heard did understand that the political and economic structure of the soviet union could not stand any long and that it was about time for change. what happened later is what people are still debating. did hillock the courage to implement the reforms or ultimately he was isolated, unable to undo on his own an empire of its own. well, i would say a gorbachev. oh,

him be celebrated for good intentions and for his belief in freedom and for the fact that he actually r a got away from centuries long tradition of the overwhelming control of the state . but he had wrong ideas about so many things, including the economy. and he thought that somehow soviet socialist economy would be preserved, but reformed wrong on here. he'd totally underestimated the nationalist dr. ah, he underestimated. i think many things about foreign policy as well. not realizing that sylvia retreat would meet with me and on the advance of the western nieto. ah, but economically it was something that was held immediately because people were people in the soviet union. this puddle said, were overwhelmingly supportive to begin with. log what gorbachev was saying,

but when the reforms began and things were falling apart, so many people grew disappointed and i think later on they resented themselves were being so naive than believing that change was possible if only they trusted their new leader. but instead of resenting themselves, they are, i think now have very negative feeling. so it gorbachev donald, so this is someone who wanted to introduce reforms, but at the same time he wanted, he was adamant about the need to send tanks to the baltic states until as i begun to come down on the professor's, was it just because we failed to understand the very nature over the very character over go. but if i say exact, marsha and powell are very correct. it was he cracked down in the baltic. as you just said, he tried to deal with the forces he unleashed himself,

which led to boris yeltsin ultimately to buy them or put him is sent this, this russian nationalism which had been suppressed by the soviet regime. and we have to keep that whole complex picture in mind as well. he could not any longer maneuver once he also won, won the leadership that support of most of the russian population. but i wanted to add one more point, which we haven't talked about, which is to say that i think the west fundamentally misunderstood what was going on at the time just as we misunderstood what was going on. and i, the one seeing it primarily as a democratic, great through against the soviet regime. it was not, it was much more complicated phenomenon than that and not as powerful to serve the issue of communist party money. soviet money which was sloshing around the system in the mid eighties in the late eighty's and ultimately, which gave rise to the oligarchs and all, many of the other corrupt unpleasantness. we see now corrupt by comparison,

even with the corrupt past, the u. s. and the west had really trouble understanding this and thus i think we misunderstood gorbachev. and what was happening just as we misunderstood. ok, you all sent a parent truck 91. i have a few other angles to cover with you that pavel go about. chill said is what it was about time to put out from afghanistan, and many thought this was going to reshape foreign policy. now putting it is launching a war in the ukraine and many are saying this is just exactly what go back to fear, which was an expansionist policy that with wet and the very stability of the international order. well, they wouldn't be no russian, the afghan, the almost a decade of war began. we were actually lucky because instead of going to war with may do in europe, we went into afghanistan and got on the nose, kind of

a red and blue bleeding and then went out. and it was became clear that we're not ready for a big war. and this time, again, for a more than 10 years, russia was building up its armed forces for a big war in europe. then they sent them into crane believing that failed overrun, and very swift in that's why the pentagon and, and the, and the with believe to. but that didn't happen again. we're lucky because we're not, we're fighting a proxy war as the one in, again, is on a proxy war and ukraine, instead of fighting a direct big a war in europe. i know european war maria working and how we that's going to end up like the or afghan russian adventure by something less the tilt oklahoma course . maria, are there any russians who would tell you that you know what, but ultimately had we not to hot someone like a like how we not had someone like the go button there was absolutely no way we

would be talking about political parties and freedom of expression in place like russia. hello, this is certainly true on board. the child, indeed believed in freedom and indeed believed in election, even though it was not entirely democratic election. those that he presided over. he never, ever wanted to be elected himself and partial about that lasted not for a long time in this raises the issue of whether indeed or of a ship was an anomaly. because we are now back to the century as long russian political tradition on the overwhelming, centralized control. ok, donald, whether or not this a good bunch of was really adamant about the need to reform the soviet union or to dismantle it. how do you see his legacy in the future? would it live on or are we turning the chapter of the man and his legacy at the same time? well,

i will give you an answer. absolutely opposite to what i would have answered 5 years ago, or maybe even on february 23rd. i think that his legacy will fade, just like the memory of the coo and its collapse, faded it with many russians. because what came afterward was in many ways, much more unpleasant than what they saw under even bresner. and so i think it will fade. but i think in the west he will be continued to be revered as a man who did did advance peace and security of europe, such as it was at least until february 23rd. thank you. thank you. doug jensen, level thinking, ha marie. i live in a really appreciate it and i thank you and thank you for watching. you can see the program again anytime by visiting our website elses yellow dot com for further discussion. go to our facebook page. that's facebook dot com, forward slash ha inside slowly, you can also join the conversation on twitter. i'll 100 is at a j inside. sorry for me hush,

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