[000:00:00;00] ah seaford mm hm. and then international anti corpse excellence award bought now for your hero. ah, investigating the use and abuse of power across the globe on al jazeera. ah.

ready hello i mariam demise in london. how main stories now for moscow control regions and eastern and southern ukraine have been voting on whether to become part of russia. ukraine official say some residents have been threatened with punishment if they don't participate. arching is taking place over 4 days, and the hans get done yet. is apple, roger and hassan, that's 15 percent of ukraine's territory. given its western allies have condemned the votes as a sham, which appears to be a step towards russian annexation. the u. s. as is prepared to impose additional sanctions on russia if it moves to annex parts of ukraine. gabriel, alexander reports from keith in the domestic region of ukraine, a russian appointed election official tours, a polling station. this is one of 4 regents where people are voting to join the russian federation. the young program also it's young. we grant the right to vote to all citizens of the dentist people's republic as well as abroad. becky is,

are you in a nearby park? people under the watchful eye of the russian state, say they welcome the referendum here. russia has always been a motherland. without it, we had no one left. you crane abandoned us, long ago. languishing, yes, you must have us. there no international election monitors, only those invited by russia media have been tightly controlled. many western analysts say it's nothing more than an exercise by the kremlin to shape how people think about russian occupied parts of ukraine. look, this is no referendum. this is no expression of will do, but at the same time they will to say face meaning getting observers meaning, filming stories of work. when voting a polling stations, the protocols being written and so on. this is kind of an invitational democracy bottle where pictures are important goodness. in some areas, russian installed officials said they would be going door to door with police to

invite residents to vote. critics say it's clear intimidation. under international law, it is illegal to hold referendums during conflict and where people are under threat . most countries, as well as international body, such as the european union and united nations, have said they won't recognize the results. the head of ukraine's election commission has told us the vote violates the institution or she live with us as a whip. there are no legal mechanics in the ukranian constitution to give up territories. this is completely unconstitutional, under martial law that we live under. now, it is prohibited by ukrainian laws to organize any referendum on our lands. in 2014, russia held a referendum in crimea, in which it alleged 96 percent to the people voted to join the federation. 5 days later,

the annexation of crimea was signed into law. it now appears that same process is happening again. but in a much larger area, in the middle of a war, and with more at stake for both ukraine and russia. gabriel, as hondo al jazeera keith lebanon's transport minister says at least $76.00 migraines have died after the boat. they were traveling in capsized of the coast of syria. 20 people have been rescued, but many a still missing survivors say the boat left tripoli and northern lebanon on tuesday, bound for europe. more and more lebanese, syrians and palisades are risking their lives to fleet lebanon on economic collapse, is plunged many people and take stream policy or iran. the army is wanting that it will confront what it's described as enemies as protest continue over the death of a 22 year old woman in police. custody for testers were seen confronting riot

police and throwing objects in the city of amal on friday. the widespread protest amongst the most serious challenges to wrong leadership for years town is reported at least 26 deaths in the last demonstration started last week. when my i mean he died off the rest. the failings i've had to head scarf, rules president abraham rise. he has ordered an investigation, but he's also called the demonstrations acts of chaos. oh, the headlines do stay with us. the bottom line with steve clemens is coming up next . i'll see you later. the. ready hi, i'm steve clements and i have a question. as republican governors dump refugees in different cities across america, does either party really have a plan for immigration?

let's get to the bottom line. ah. human beings are now being used as pawns literally. ponds in america's culture wars, republican governors have been organizing bus trips and more recently air flights for latin american refugees who shown up in their states. and now they're sending them off to democratic states. these refugees, many of whom are applying for asylum, were promised housing and jobs that they got on the transport. but they were duped . it's as cruel as it sounds, and it's only getting worse. last week, texas and bus loads of migrants to the residence of vice president comma harris in washington, d. c. and florida flew 48 migrants in texas to the posh island of martha's vineyard . yes, an island off the coast of massachusetts. the republican governors who are doing this want to spark a national debate on immigration with a few weeks left before the mid term elections. well, will it work? can americans agree on any immigration policy?

is there a middle ground between 0 tolerance and open borders? today we're talking with paras stockman, a journalist who's covered politics, social movements, and race and is a member of the new york times editorial board. she's the author of american made. what happens to people when work disappears? and tom nichols, a writer at the atlantic magazine, former professor of national security affairs at the us naval war college. he's the author of our own worst enemy, the assault from within on modern democracy. thank you both for joining me today. you almost simultaneously had the headlines about this migrant stuff about the movement of people, the shipping of people to martha's vineyard. and both of you had interesting takes on america's migration refugee challenges right now. and i'd love to start with you fara, because you, you started by saying we have a deeper problem here, which is the story of america is being the story for the huddled masses yearning to be free,

coming here from problems abroad seeking asylum. in many cases. tell us how you saw this issue of what governor de santis did in grabbing a number of people a sit really seducing them on the plane and dropping them in martha's vineyard. well 1st, oh, i was just weird. like, how does the governor of florida send an operative to texas to bring them to, to martha's vineyard? it's, it's a, it's a strange story that he are. his people are arguing that it's preemptive, right? that these are people from venezuela who are going to end up in florida, and that's why he gets to insert himself in this way. but it's very odd because, you know, this is the, this is he's kind of getting in on something that governor greg abbott has been doing for months now. which is busing migrants to a sanctuary. cities quote unquote, in in washington d. c. and then new york and chicago, they're,

they're trying to get attention right. but, and, and it's working frankly, if this, this is a stand, it's working. well. tom, let me ask you about this side of shipping refugees and migrants to various cities in the country. i saw this kind of thing a year ago in eastern europe. i was visiting at the time till lean estonia and we were listening the state minister, the security on guard security issues they were facing. and they said lucas shank o in, in belarus, was sending folks over to iraq to pick up a rocky refugees promising them a better life in europe and dropping them off on the border. lots and lots of people on the board of lithuania and that this was, you're creating lots of tensions for the government in lithuania, and lo and behold, we see the source. i don't seem to be talking about that from a year ago. but is this something you think people watched, and this is sort of a copycat exercise? i don't think de santis watch that. i think what the santis watched was tucker

carlson back in july thing. would it be great if we dumped a lot of people on martha's vineyard? you know the thing is there, there is an immigration problem in the united states. we do have problems with our border. i mean, if you go back 25 years to the, to the democratic party platform, when bill clinton was running, he talks about how, you know, in the early ninety's, americans didn't even really have borders. but, but what disinterested is completely separate from that. this is just a kind of form of cultural warfare that's meant to primarily the advance rhonda sentences position and they were coming republican presidential primary. and there was just a kind of a juvenile mean spirited next to it, that really has nothing to do with immigration, but everything to do with turning to your voting bass and saying, see, i made people in massachusetts mad because messages just bad. and martha's vineyard is full of liberals, and in a strange way,

i think it backfires because it's fair that it brings attention to it. but i think it convinces a lot of people across the country that only really terrible people worry about immigration. well, let me, of course, we should all worry about it. let me show you a poll that was done recently on, on whether the united states is experiencing an invasion at the southern border. look at these numbers. we have 76 percent of republicans think there's innovation in the southern border, 40 percent of democrats, and so say well you will that 40 percent still a big number when you look at that time. and i just want to note that in your article, you go to kind of lengths to say what you just said. we have a problem with the southern border. you identify yourself as a conservative who's looked at this. you didn't just call these are, you know, under unofficial folks. you said these are illegal. ah, folks that have come into the country. how is your view change? and when you look at these numbers, what do you think the credible way is to deal with that sense?

of threat than many americans are feeling. i am both the grandson of immigrants on both sides of my family. and i still think of myself as an immigration hawk. i actually think the 2 things are related that you know, i cherish immigration and i want it done properly because that's the strength of america. what i don't want, and where i change my view is, you know, a hard line policy at the border that's implemented. pure purely for sadistic kicks . purely for kind of, you know, this, these sadistic motives that are meant to advance the political careers of a couple of guys in texas and florida. that's not policy because the other thing of america is about, is about being humane. is about being a refuge for people and i mean, we have to, we have to have the rule of law, we have to have order. and i think that, that, you know, for him, for,

for people who want a strong border and regularized immigration system, that's really important. but i mean, that doesn't mean that i would ever sign on. and i don't think any of us should sign on for the intentional tormenting of children as a deterrent, which is what happened over the past few years with things like family separation. there has to be something in between throwing up our hands and saying, well, there's nothing we can do about it and saying, well, the only thing we can do about it is to put a bunch of, you know, statistic, jerks in charge of tormenting people. i mean, that's really, that's not what america is. certainly not what america is to me in european, which i highly recommend to people is so powerful and kind of looking at the ethic of america about what it was about. and i just want to have you, in your words, share with our viewers. what seeking asylum means and compare say, a few years ago in terms of the number of asylum seekers that were coming into this

country versus what we're seeing today virtually every month in, in staggering levels. yeah, so we've seen about a 1000000 people enter the country in the last, since biden has become president, and about a 150000 of them have managed to seek asylum. there's many more that are able to seek asylum through this process. i think they have about a year to do it. and at what, that's a similar number actually that, that came in under similar circumstances under, under trump. and i just have to say that this is a, this is broken, the system, these, these, the sure number of people that have come in can't be handled by our courts. our courts have been very archaic. they up until very recently they were using paper files. and so the amount of time that it takes to get

a hearing has gone from like $45.00 days to 4 and a half years. so now you can wait years before you even get a hearing. and it could be like 7 years before you actually, your taste is actually decided. and so what i said in my piece is that our system is chaotic enough that it actually has become a self perpetuating problem. because if it takes so many years to get a hearing, then people are incentivized to apply for asylum it's. it's not easy to go through the process. but if you go through the process, then you get work authorization after 150 days. and so it's, i think that this is one of the problems we need a system. it's more modern that's more efficient and that's more fair,

where people who actually deserve asylum. people who qualify for asylum can, can make it right and can, can get what they are, what they deserve. and where you can kind of weed out the people who are just trying to skip the line, skip the integration, skip immigration line. the, the other thing i have to say is that this is, this is not just something we have another buy and it's been a growing one like backlog has, has it's, it's been growing for years and years and years. and we're actually seeing because of the higher hiring of war, immigration judges. we're actually seeing the system start to work out the kinks and start to operate faster. and this is where that we've seen completion of markets while that may be the case. but you make a really interesting point in your piece is saying that, you know, from an incentive structure, those people coming across the border. now we have an incentive to ask for asylum

whether or not they are deserving or not. and so those of us that are looking, you know, a few steps aside. say, you know, look at the numbers, they see what's going on. i understand there's, you know, horror and impunity, and rapes and killings in other parts of the world that people may be trying to escape. but not all of those people are there. and the number of searches such level that it's created a lot of skepticism. we just show you both, you know, these, these numbers. i mean, because i would be worried. but if you look at these numbers here, support for legal status for immigrants has really decline from overall 65 percent of the country was a bit very bit in 2018 to about 51 percent and still falling now. and i guess my question is, when we look at legal status, you know, tom, the, you switch in your article, you say i have now moved my view from being prickly about legality and all of this. and because of this sadistic what you call a sadistic stunt, you think we need to be now much more permissive,

but most of america is not with you on this because they look and they don't trust the asylum route anymore. so tell me where i'm wrong. well, i don't, unfortunately, i don't trust the people that used to be my fellow immigration box anymore. and what did it was? not this. i was going to make a coming earlier when farrah was talking about 5 speakers. you know, the, the on this thing is that de santis took a bunch of people from venezuela where the prime aphasia case for asylum is probably pretty strong. you know, he took the one group of people where you really could say others probably this, the sure it looks a lot like asylum seeking. but then of course, the problem is that everybody says, well, that's all you get in and i'm seeking asylum to that. suddenly a 1000000 people say i'm seeking asylum and of course asylum does not mean that life in my country is terrible and life in your country. is better, and so, you know, i have not changed my view to say, well, just, you know,

let everybody in and we'll sort it out. but to say things like, you know, what really radicalized me here was not a scientist, but the family separation policy. that's when i step back and i said, you know, there are people who claim to be care, but this puerto issue who, who really are just doing terrible things. the policy was to take children away from their parents and send them into the american. 7 kind of foster system or immigration. hell, you know where there was simply no infrastructure to deal with them because nobody had done that on that scale before. and to do it as a deterrent literally to cause pain to parents and children as a message to others. not to come here. i, you know, i again, old school law and order rule of law conservative. that does not mean inflicting pain on toddlers and babies intentionally as a warning to other people. and that's what i kind of felt radicalized away frying.

so the harder views i took fair, let me ask you so the experience being felt by texas by arizona, by florida, southern states in this, where liberals elsewhere in the country are basically saying we should be opening and welcoming. but they don't have the problems. they don't have the stress in the financial issues. and some liberals in progressives are beginning to say, now, now we're getting it, which means they desantis and governor abbot may have actually started a conversation that could go in a constructive course. at least i'd love to get your mapping of this. i was just looking at all the comments on my stories and a lot of them were from people who said, i'm liberal and yet i, i, i feel for these places that are having a huge number of migrants come in because we're tired. we, we have been volunteering in san antonio are helping them or we are, you know, like there's, there is

a sense that places like boston and places like new york haven't had to deal with what the border states have been dealing with. and you don't have to be statistic to say we, you know, it requires resources which the federal government has actually been giving to places like san antonio. but it does require resources to house people. busy to, to, to teach kids who only know a different language. if it's not free, it costs money and it can be a demographic, a demographic transformation of a place. and so look, my mother is from, she grew up in mississippi. she's a black woman from mississippi and on the immigration issue, she's pretty, she's, she's sounds conservative. sometimes she's like those jobs that these migrants are taking should go to black people who have been here all this time. and so, you know, there is a, it's about, it's a trade off,

a lot of times people with people who are well off who have college degrees and who want to hire, you know, baby sitters for cheap or lawn care, people to do their lawns, people to work on their houses, right. those are the immigrants and were, you know, so we like to have folks who are coming in who are going to work for less. that's good for us. the americans that are competing with them in those industries don't like to have them coming in. and frankly, even recently naturalized hispanics who are there close. his competitors are some of the most hawkish on immigration that you'll find. why do you think trump got a boost in 2020 from some of those hispanic communities? it's a lot of it has to do an economic competition. and i think if democrats don't, don't acknowledge it or understand it, they're going to lose the there's,

they're going to lose that debate. because phone numbers. i mean, you, you saw yourself that 40 percent democrats all the time, you know, i, i love you to break down the politics a little bit. you know, president trump has said america is full because full of folks. and we don't even now when i go around the country and see the job shortages and the people i keep wondering, wow, something's going on here with a disconnect where restaurants can't run small businesses can't run. you know, large businesses are having a very hard time finding workers and retaining workers in this environment. so i guess what are the politics as you look forward at the, to the mid terms and then to 2024 of the america is full message. well, you know, some of the people that most green, most strongly with trumping are the most anti immigrant actually live in places where there aren't any immigrants you know, when, when you hear people in, in iowa and new hampshire and montana complaining about immigrants that's, that's

a message they're picking up from the conservative media and the conservative kind of messaging ecosystem. but i think this, this dovetails back to ferris point. immigration is a crisis. it's not just the problem. it's crisis. and if you, in the democratic party, if a big share of the democratic parties only answer to that is to dismiss any discussion about immigration as racism, for example, and say, well, it's just racism. it's not racism. there are people who want to have a diverse and welcoming country, but, you know, again, going back to the democrats in the 90s to bill clinton, you can't just not have a border. and so the problem is that this stuff to go back to the whole florida and texas thing, i disagree that they've opened the conversation. i think they've created a kind of stupid binary that even i feel pulled into saying, well,

what are and i say, i say in the peaks, if my choice is randa santas, and a bunch of goons pulling pranks or joe biden and the system we have now where we kind of muddle through, i'll take the system now and we'll muddle through that. i can sign onto that other approach. we also, i don't really, i think that's really a productive way to go about it. but the entire country has to become invested. and the key word here was resources, right? country has to be involved in resources, not just for education, not just for housing, but, but because of inforcement. and i'll just finish by saying, you know, i'm old enough steve, that i was a young guy and washington when the 1986 immigration reform act was passed. where, you know, ronald reagan signed the sam and, and it was kind of a lucy in the football and that was trying to get it all done. right. get it all done. we're never doing it again. this, this is a one and done the fix our problems. and you know, 35 years later,

here we are. but let me ask you farrah, what should vice president common harris be doing right now that she's not? what she should be doing. i mean, look at this, the system is broken for a reason it's, it's broken by design. i think we are whole restaurant economy in new york is basically balancing on the idea that undocumented labor is, is working in the kitchen or our agriculture sector is based on the idea of migrant labor. some of the some of whom are undocumented. and so, you know, we have a system that wants people to be in limbo, it doesn't want to give them citizenship, it doesn't want to give them an american wage, but it needs their labor. and so that we have to come to terms of that as, as a society. i personally think that we need more legal pathways. i think

a lot of people just don't like the chaos and the idea that people, anybody can just show up and walk in that right. that's, that's, that's worry for me for a lot of people, not just conservatives. so we need to get a sense of controls, lowe's knowing who's coming in and keeping track of people, making sure that they're there, the skills that we need, frankly, and that and that there are also alternatives for people who are just frankly, extremely desperate and in need tom, let me give you 30 seconds on tips for vice president harris. well, i think her trip to central america, which was kind of her maiden foreign policy speech, did not go well. immigration is always, you know, anybody who comes here as ferris said, you know, the site, the just, you can just kind of walk in, you know, i think biden's always been a little better about that. but,

but the left flank of the democratic party really has to understand that, you know, there are people that are the fiscal with gentlemen concern. and not just, you know, greg abbott and ron de santis pulling statistic print. right. so that messaging i think has to change and you know, again, i'll just go back and say that or be trading better staffing and also don't, you know, going down to the. busy border and. busy going to central america, i don't think really accomplishes a lot. i think, speaking the american people about this more directly with. all right, well let me thank you both veteran journalists and authors, ferris dockman of the new york times, and tom nichols of the atlantic magazine. thanks for these articles and thanks for joining us today. thank you for having. so what's the bottom line? america has a major immigration ulcer that's getting worse and worse. hundreds of thousands of people a month are fleeing their homes in latin america and trying to get into the united states. some di trying, some are beaten rapes traffic. some just need a job,

and others are trying to escape the impunity in their own countries. either way, they're driven by desperation. otherwise they just would never pick up their families and go through this ordeal. there are no good answers. nations must control their borders, or guess what? they seem to be nations. at the same time, there is a humane way to deal with the problem. and that's certainly not what we saw on the ruthless exploitation of refugees for political purposes, putting random people on buses in plains and sending them off to random places where they have no connections. really. the u. s. has never been able to tackle this issue in a lasting logical way. now the political right has found an issue to gain traction . and now congress, in my view on a bipartisan basis, needs to invest in real solutions. and that's the bottom line. ah,

a ah safe going home and then international anti corruption excellence award boat. now for your hero