is it he comes for a few hours a day? the generators cost the civilians too much. there is no follow up from the municipality for the destroyed embalmed buildings. to remove the rubble permanently . the battle to defeat ices was just a start of a struggle for people here. and for those who remain the lack of reconstruction, health and education mean it hasn't ended. i said, beg, i'll 0. sri lankan author shahan corona to locker has won this year's prestigious booker prize for his dark lea comic novel. the 7 moons of molly anita it set during the height of sri lanka, civil war, and tells the story of the murdered photographer who investigates his own death. from the afterlife, carrying his locker says his writing reflects as countries gallows humor slits, keep telling our stories. let's keep listening to a run stories and sharing our stories because um, we tend to in sri lanka, forget the past and not talk about it that i thought, yeah,

that was the purpose of this to gonna dig up harsh periods in our history. ah. are there, this is al jazeera and these are the top stories. at least 4 people have been killed and 16 injured in drones strikes in ukraine's capital. the early morning attacks and people running for cover a week after russia unleashed it's most widespread strikes against the country and months. the u. s. as it will hold russia accountable for war crimes. air forces from across nato. meanwhile, on taking part in the alliances annual nuclear exercise, and drills involved 14 countries in round 60 aircraft. and i'll be conducting training flights over belgium as well as the north sea. and the u. k. person is prime minister has been a curious running, scared after failing to address parliament days after replacing the finance minister, the new chancellor jeremy hunt announced a raft of you towns on last month, controversial,

many such as about measures. so i've decided that the basic rate of income tax will remain at 20 percent. and it will do so indefinitely until economic circumstances allow for it to be kept. taken together with a decision not to cut corporation tax and restoring the top rate of income tax. the measures i've announced today will raise around 32000000000 pounds every year. you estimate time elections less than a month away and the candidates vying for one of our higher senate seats have taken part in a televised debase ohio. a key battle ground stays is set to be of tight contest. republican j. d bounce and democrat, tim ryan on our neck and neck, and the poles authorities and nigeria are struggling to get relief supplies. the hundreds of thousands of people displaced by severe floods. more than 600 people have died and 1300000 people have been displaced on the was floods. the country is seen in a decade. thousands of people have been protesting in the haitian capital as the

united nations discussed measures to address the dia, security crisis in the country. the u. s. is proposing to send international trip after the hazy government asked for external military assistance last week. at least 3 people have died in venezuela and after river bastards, banks sending turns of muddy water through a town sweeping away call. last week, 56 people in the same region, accounts, and floods and the land. while there is the headlines, i'll have more news for you here on al jazeera after inside story. do you stay with us? aah! liberated but ignored, rucker has been freed from iso for 5 years now,

but the city is still reeling from poverty and devastation. so who's responsible and how much of a threat is a resurgence of the armed growth in its former capital? this is in 5 story. ah hello and welcome to the program. i'm emily ang, when it's been a 5 years since the armed group i saw was defeated in rocker in northern syria. the city served as its base, yet many of the conditions that made rack a vulnerable to an ice will take over in 2017 still exists to day. governance is wake and attacks are common across the city. people are living in ruins with limited electricity, water, and access to education and medical services are sad,

bag reports, ice and fight to celebrate their capture of rocca in 2014. they no longer hear what the destruction left after the battle to force them out still remains us fact kurdish fighters fought st battles. he dislodged the militants and the u. s. carried out hundreds of air strikes on the city. cedrin democratic forces now controlled rocca. i'm to see you on in our journey. for 5 years, we lived in a desperate situation with lack of good water or bread, but my family has 9 people, no services, provided. they give pershing pieces of bread to 6 people and they make you suffer to get enough bread for your family. last time they told me if i didn't like it, go make a complaint. we can't help you. oh, many here are concerned about the state of the roads with winter fast approaching. they're worried, they may be cut off in an emergency as a lot longer,

those yellowstone at will because of the bad roads. if you are sick, the taxi will drop you away from your house and they do not enter these bad streets and our street is considered one of the better ones. one of our hopes is at these streets, be fixed in case an ambulance wants to enter. electricity supplies are limited here, and those who can afford them use generators. them another cell, we depend on the generators. the normal electricity comes through a few hours a day. the generators cost the civilians too much, there is no follow up from the municipality for the destroyed embalmed buildings. to remove the rubble permanently. the battle to defeat ices was just a start of a struggle for people here. and for those who remain the lack of reconstruction, health and education mean, it hasn't ended. i said, beg, i'll 0. let's take a closer look at the legacy of icily in syria. he armed group no longer has a strong hold in the northeast and is officially considered defeated. despite this,

it's fighters, domain name in dares or 20 percent of people serve a c i. so as the main threat to their security and some rights groups worn and they could be a resurgence of the group as former fighters and their families are released from the whole camp. in ne syria. the, let's bring in, i guess, now in norman oklahoma is joshua land is the director at the center of middle east studies at the university of oklahoma. in ankara. is mirage. yes, tash director of foreign policy research and seizure. as in tank and covering security and foreign policy issues and in bali is i am and john what al it to me me, editor of castle re associates, i'm in is a specialist on islamic state, a warm welcome to all of you. joshua, i'd like to start with you. the goal was to free civilians in rocca from the grips

of iso. but have they been overlooked since being liberated? yes, it has and, and, and in it, in this, you know, sort of blame game. ah. yeah, everybody is guilty, but the united states, as an american, i'd like to speak on the, on the part of the united states and the united states put up with the rise of selfish jihadist state in north eastern syria. right from the early days. and we have this from the documents that have been given out through wiki leaks, the d, i a defense intelligence agency, for example, already in 2012 said that it was the purpose. it was the intention of the west turkey and the gulf states to allow a islamic state of some kind to rise up in ne, in order to pressure to use it as leverage against aside. and we see this time and time again in the american documents already in 2013,

for example. the number 2 in the cia gave us one single interview on tv. and he said that the way they're going to get rid of aside was by building up the opposition and they said already the opposition is dominated by al qaeda and, and of related, malicious these radical islamist. so what they wanted to do was build them up to weaken the syrian army, but they were terrified of destroying the syrian army. they said, because we would need the syrian military and his attention to the see. serious security forces are required to defeat al qaeda when this is done. so they wanted a week in the syrian army forces, hearing army to come to america, to negotiate. and then they thought they could get rid of us that way that the army would turn on our side, like the egyptian army had turned against mubarak, they would get rid of him, then it would build up the army to kill the jihadists in the northeast. but in fact,

their plan blew up in their hands and they built, they managed to build a big state or dated build it. but of course it, it emerged with the weapons that they were pouring in. and then they had to go and destroy it. and so this terrible plan which didn't stand a chance of working was partly the reason for why rocca was so destroyed and why it hasn't grown back again. because sanctions and other things are, are, and that terrible government has been left in place, are all responsible for the devastation that's been brought on syria. and let's look at that devastation. let's look at the problem before we've perhaps discussed this solution. i mean, if i can go to you now, what is the current humanitarian situation like in northern syria as it stands as well? there, q asian, because i've actually been there in 2018. i remember when i went there was very,

very heavy to start building to be wrapped in latin door unusable. on the other hand, it was completely devoid of light. it wasn't a ghost town. and i think there has been just the limited program in restoration of offense. restore bike electricity and water access. on the other hand though, the, this process itself is that is largely dependent on aid provided by the united states and also by other western currency that will be policing again, your body day. and the amount of a really willing to provide is not commensurate with the amount of structure that took place in the in particular during the re fax. and i

think really to be sure that indicates the rocca there was always, there was, it was to be expected. that would be the danger amount. because the bombing state i was going to fight out the very end in pushing back democratic war. and also just because of the way the approach of western currency, it's all towards these kinds of compet, which is that you rely on local power on the ground despite and very heavy s by which does lead time. so just to speak about the situation. it's still very bad that has been some program over the years, but it's really not in keeping the inspection. and then also just the long term challenge which you know and be willing to bikes to do certain like

decrease in increasing water. they would below the river level of the crazy and along with that actually reduced access to hydro electricity and dependent on generated. yes, exactly. so it's not just necessarily the destruction, but also the military and situation on the ground with the likes of water and food and also unemployment. murat, if i can direct these question to you, is that poverty and unemployment driving young men into the arms of i. so they using money to know a paper, will we see a resurgence of isis? i think yes indeed. yes, but the problem is not limits with with dice is liking. there are 4 different dynamics to understand the curren station in rocca. the 1st is of course the potential of isis resurgence in the in the regions isis is very active. yes,

it is true that the territorial order of isis has been, has been call up, but it's territorial activities is still undermining the stability of the region one. but when i'm talking about region, of course, what is not limited, i mean there are also other regions, for example, when we take into consideration distribution in l whole comp. i think we have to be very careful in terms of understanding the real push and pull factors on the grounds because of the p k, k n y, p g 's, you know, week security mechanism, the weak security procedures and the increasing corruptions of y, p g over the management of l hall come so therefore, isis activities is still continuing, which will eventually may provide at freedom of money were to become an active organization on the grounds. the 2nd dynamics is about the p k. k y p g. i think,

as you know, that the s d f is one of the important organizations, political and military organizations on the grounds to govern the city and the regions. but unfortunately, the dominant position of y, p g over the local population is problematic. when we look at the data activities or y p g n, p j k, there are many problems about human while human rights violations. so when we look at the different reports which are released by international organizations, we can easily say that there is an intensive, you know, human rights violations on the ground, especially again, the local or population. then the local populations i think, are not happy about the dominant position of y p g. when you look at the, you know, the natural resource, i think the natural resource of the region is not use the benefit of the local populations. as you know, there is a strong pick between p k k y p g and y,

p g and p y d, i think are using these natural resource for the benefit of p k. k is activated and syria, iraq and turkey. so this is a real problem, i think p k 10 y, p g is also trying to change the demography of the region which will eventually undermine the you know, the demographic balance in the region. so this all these dynamics i think, provides some kind of grievances for the resurgence of, of ice. and so there is also other dynamics in terms of the, you know, as you mentioned, limited water and electricity access the difficulties for especially the children to access to the cations. and especially the disease would, in the context of the, you know, the limited water. and the local demonstrations against the y p g dominated governance model. these are all, i think, you know, the,

the main dynamics for the push and pull factors and the grievances for dice as the final point is about the, you know, the, the lack of a comprehensive solution mechanism for the feature of syria. and there is then, there is no sorts annuity about the united states to, to teach a position in the region. there are many conflicts between the regional actors, including turkey, iran, syria, and other external actors. so therefore, there are many possibilities for ices to be, become an active terrorist organization in the region. sure. and just to break it down for our audience, because there's lots of less has been thrown around. and so the s d f is the syrian and democratic forces. the y p j is an armed kurdish militia that's been designated by turkey as a terrorist organization. joshua, now that i've made that point, i'll just throw it over to you. obviously turkey and the u. s i major players in all of this. what does the re well,

let me rephrase that took us through the relationship between turkey and the us in all of this and had the people in rocca become the victims of politics between the 2 countries. well, they certainly are the victims of politics. you know, turkey is a native country, it's an ally of the united states. it has its own ambitions, the united states, in order to destroy isis. and this is lama state that had grown up in ne, syria, had to dump the arabic opposition in syria and side with a kurdish opposition. and the kurdish forces because they were the only ones that were willing to kill this sidney arabs that made up isis. and so america jumped switched horses in the middle of the stream in $21415.00 and began to arm the kurds and the largest and most able kurdish organization was the y p g,

which turkey considers part of the pay k k of this terrorist organization, so turkey got furious at u. s. strategy which was to kill, which was the arm these people and train them because it worried about the blow back inside turkey itself. so this set these partners against each other. and today there's, you know, steep competition cuz america is helping the kurds and turkey wants them not to. so turkey is increasingly closing ranks with the outside regime in order to try to collectively get rid of the united states and bring the kurdish region back under some kind of control whether it's target control or outside the 2 are competing powers, but they have a common goal, which is to get america out and to undue this autonomy as quasi independent region that america has built in the northeast. and i think america will leave not

under this administration because it's promised not to maybe not even under the next one, but it will eventually leave. and it'll be like afghan stan, where the kurdish leaders who have hung their hats on america and, and become very dependent. we'll have to flee the country. and the 2nd rank of kurdish leaders will make a deal with our side who needs them to rule the ne, himself just like the americans do. and so i think that's, that's the likely future in the region until that happens. there is going to be chaos. harakas not going to be rebuilt and americans not really interested in the ne, cuz it doesn't want an independent state there. and it really will try to get out in the next administration or the one after i'm in. would you like to respond to that? what do you see as the resolution between taking the us in this part of the world? i don't really see a resolution the, i don't be a possible resolution. really resists somehow in democratic

for the structure that slipped back in the us. lead position again is my day. i mean, i've been pointed out that the white, the g, which has been linked to the part b k. and that's the dominant component of the democratic board. when it was set up in 2015, it was really attempt and attempted a rebranding. i decided down the white dominant and although the white, although the white incorporated many, many local rains, it's still dominated by battery. curtis cater people linked to the p k. k. and that just suited to local redemption on the ground, but also in relation to the question. and if you're able to see thank you. after

bolstering the p k. k. so there isn't really a resolution i think that i'd be, would it wouldn't be arrested between the and the united states on the issue that effectively the democratic forms in long run and then see the joint would be between an increased or expansion. here in central government control or, or controlled by iranian rebel groups that have been backed by to expansion the south from the little pocket example they created along the border. they created along the board with 30 in progress. so yeah, there is a, there is, and i refuse, and it would be in any way moran, i saw you nodding. now you have a response. i think, you know,

there are alternatives for, of course. and also there are scenarios about the feature. the 1st one is do you know, maintaining the state of school, which is not possible for the short term because of the many dynamics on the grounds and the dynamics in the regional politics, especially after the russian invasion of ukraine. and this is not the most likely scenario. the 2nd one is the, you know, transformation of the s, d, f, or y p g or p y, v, whatever you call it. i think there are some act tends to transform y, p g n p y v would in the context of united states strategic syria. but it is not an easy task for the united states because of the very strong relationship between y p g n p k. k, if you like, states is going to be successful in terms of transforming y p g and push back the p j k causes from the y p g. then the transformation, you know, will be the likely scenario in the midterm. but on the other hand,

there is also the tort scenario about the defeating y, p g n p k. and the region. i think the syrian government or sri regime is not able to do so. and turkey has to pass the to if he's the y p g on the ground . but when we look at the turkey's priorities, i don't think that the, the s t f dominated region will be targeted by turkey in the coming feature. and other sub scenario of the 3rd scenario is the potential research. you know the insurgencies against y p g n, p y di, different cities, different regents in the northern parts of syria because of the many, many, many important dynamics be conflicts, potential conflict between local r up communities and, and the kurdish communities or why fiji dominated s d f in terms of you know,

a y p g 's governance model. so therefore, i think in the coming feature because of the, you know, the uncertainties and beauties on the grounds. i don't see any kind of solutions in the near future with the focus bang on these armed kurdish groups. could we then say a resurgence of iso in the background? joshua, yes, it's not going to become monstrous, but it's going to carry on the way it's doing now. people in the region are desperate. and as long as the region is northern, syria is broken up into these 3 major enemy territories. that is a turkish run northwest, a american run northeast, and a russian supported us. i'd state, isis, and other radicals are going to be able to run through the feet of these 3 major forces which are enemies. all of each other can see isis as the secondary problem until there is a unified sovereign government that's able to stand on his feet with

a police force in an army in syria. isis is not going to be wiped out in, nor a radical is going to be wiped out. so as long as the goal of the international community is to keep serial weak and divided, there will be a place for recruitment of radical islamists. and not only that, we know when talking about foreign policy and politics, but we're also talking about people. what are the obligations of turkey, of the us, of these major players, to the people of syria. i'll direct that question to you. i'm and well, i think in the case, i think it depends on which idea you're talking about. i think in the terms of the united states, that certainly the areas where dr noted campaign against designing stay. and i, i need you think that there would be more of an obligation on the united states to

deal with the reconstruction of the city and the restoration of life restoration services improvement improvement of the infrastructure as opposed to this more hands off approach. i just the as a matter of obligation, given the strikes for so mechanics to be but i can't really speak about obligations towards theory or as a whole on, on a larger scale. it is so many dive in leasing goal. it's just going to bring about it's comprehensive and told about this idea east in the near need, and also in a half an hour program we have to leave at the gentleman. thank you very much for your time. thanks to all i guess, joshua land is moran. yes, you tash and i am and john l to meaning and thank you to for watching. you can say

the program again. any time by visiting our website al jazeera, don't. com and prefer the discussion go to our facebook page that facebook dot com forward slash a j inside story. you can also join the conversation on twitter. handle is a j inside story. from may, emily anglin, and the whole thing he buys the ah and a society's progress is dependent on the quality of its experts be need more and find out professionals. i

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