other countries from the very beginning, we are open for the positive criticism. and it helped us because even our laws, we've changed a lot in our rules. we made modernize our rows as this, as it has become more comfortable to the human rice is something that we achieve and we achieve because we are open minded and we are ready to listen to the positive criticism. and we're all cap is about more than sport. it's reflecting and transforming the culture of an entire country. far as small al jazeera, doha. hold the names, of course, on our website, there is on the screen. the address aren't a 0 dot com. ah,

i thought could check the headlines here on al jazeera us. how speaker nancy pelosi is husband as undergone surgery after being attacked at their home in san francisco . the suspect is believed have shouted, where is nancy before beating 8, a 2 year old pole? pelosi with a hammer. at the time nancy pelosi was in washington, dc. the 42 year old suspect has been charged with attempted homicide. too much violence, political violence. too much hatred. too much read through all. and what makes us think the one point can talk about stall elections covered being a hoax is all by july and not affect people who may not be so well balanced. what makes us think that it's not going to corrode? the political climate enough is enough, is enough. every person of good conscience. there is a clearly,

an i am vigorously stand up against violence in our policy regardless of what your politics off brazil's president j bowles and arrow. and his challenger, louisa nasty alluded to silver have gone head to head in their final debate before sundays. run off by the opinion, polls give lula a slight lead in the run up to the boat or an hour has suggested that the electoral system is vulnerable to for at least $72.00 people have been killed as tropical storm now, gay lashes, the philippines, it's burning heavy rains and strong winds, large parts of the country. government says the number of casualties is expected to rise. fighting, intensifying and ukraine's eastern dumbass russia shilling, the cities of mc alive and black mood with as a fierce battle for control. and russian attacks continue to target ukraine's power grid. damage to infrastructure has cut capacity to the capital key, 5 out of 3rd. u. s. o. giant exxon mobil has smashed financial forecasts,

recording its highest corporate profit, maybe $20000000000.00, a company's profits of sword due to an increase in demand and disruptions in supply due to the war in ukraine. well, those are the headlines. the news continues here now to 0 after up front stage, and then to watching bye for now. talk to al jazeera, we also do believe that women of afghanistan was somehow abandoned by the international community. we listen, we have a huge price for the war against terrorism as going on in some money. we meet with global news makers and talk about the stories that matter. one, al jazeera, georgia, maloney is italy's 1st female prime minister. she takes office as the head of the most far right coalition, since benito mussolini dictatorship. she is the latest in a line of female nationalists occupying high ranking political positions like frances marine le pen and germany's allas vital. bologna is a cent, has been linked to

a phenomenon known as federal nationalism where feminist ideas are used to advance a nationalist agenda. but why did women join forward movement in the 1st place when they so often infringe on women's rights? and what happens when it's women at the head of a populace nationalist? that's our conversation this week on upfront. ah, joining me to discuss this are sarah ferris, associate professor in sociology ed goldsmith's university of london, an author of in the name of women's rights. the rise of federal nationalism by anti fernando is associate professor of anthropology at the university of california. santa cruz and cynthia miller address is director of the polarization and extremism research and innovation lab at american university. she's also the author of heat in the homeland, the new global far right. thank you for joining me on up front, sada, i'm going to start with you, you coined the term federal nationalism. can you talk to me about sort of where

this term comes from and how it evolved over time? chris was finacialow them a for those who no, not the term, nor is sure to for feminism and the nationalism. it is a term that i have introduced to describe, but the way in which the nationalists, right winged parties, he was a mainstream feminist ideas and generic ideas of gender equality, particularly in there on that immigration and anti you slum campaign. but this term also refers to notify me sir, who has proposed the or indoors the anti used lum legislation, thereby converging gra, with national nice to and when i speak of anti legislation, i think for example, of the vague barons in a country like crowns where younger muslim women could not wear the he shop in public schools. so i speak with him when ashley because you asked how he has a goal of the over time. i think it has definitely intensified since

911. we have seen more and more right wing the nationalist, political formation. so using an instrument allies in id, as a women's rights, particularly with the migration. and he's run before because campaigns. so this has to be an emerging pattern where many far right movements feature women and important positions. we thought we saw this most recently in italy with the election of the most far right coalition, since benito mussolini dictatorship headed by georgia maloney making i heard the country's 1st female prime minister. she's talked about limiting abortions. she's against employment quarters for women policies. one can argue hurt most women, but many like former us presidential candidate, hillary clinton, appraising her victory, saying, quote, the election of the 1st woman, prime minister in a country always represents a break with the past. and that is certainly a good thing. why do you think many self described feminist, like hillary clinton,

c maloney as a win for feminism and are overlooking her far right policies. while i think in the case of clinton for example, or there is certainly be a kind of idea back to if we met when elections, if we might gain prominence, roles within political formations come come, how these is again for feminism, but maloney easy got no family in any way, maloney actually stays at several times so that she thinks women she should stick to their roles as mothers, they should be what christian. and that they certainly shouldn't have been a bush. she fights against the so called gender theory is again the same sex marriage and adoptions by almost sexual capital. so, and in the sense, in fact, her victory ease, dramatic defeat for feminism and eligible q writes a man,

what are your thoughts? there was a 2019 analysis of 7 european countries and showed that over 40 percent of votes for the radical right. they came from women and in italy, maloney's party, brothers of italy, received more votes from women than any other party. what interest do, and i'm not asking to speak for women collectively, but what might be some possibilities for why women would be invested in electing someone like maloney? well, i don't think necessarily that women boat at the block, right? women have very different interests. as we've seen with maloney as we've seen with other right wing leaders. i think it's, i think it's a mistake to assume that just because one of the women one is going to vote for some this to gender. and i think that there are ways in which so called traditional family values, an anti l g b t q, platform, immigration and to immigration, you know, legislation, all of those things speak to women as much as they do to men. and i think it's not

surprising in some sense that there are lots and lots of women who vote for whitening agenda and kind of anti feminist agenda in part because a lot of women don't identified feminists including ga maloney herself. right. so be another example of this trend is hungry. president katelyn novak who was nominated by far right. prime minister, victor or bonds for dish party after serving as is government administer of family affairs. when we see women, whole prominent positions within authoritarian or autocratic government, is that still an improvement on the patriarchy of the past? or is it just a new way to legitimize authoritarianism? i think, you know, one of the things that's really important to distinguish is women's empowerment from actual women's rights are women's are feminist goals. and i think a lot of what we see sometimes also in the extreme far right is women who now feel more empowered often through kind of social media engagement to be leaders in

a way that was excluded for them before. but that leadership doesn't necessarily mean that they're, that they're promoting goals that are going to be adding rights for other women or for marginalized groups across the board. and we saw that with you know, the weapon ization of motherhood, for example is a really clear example where with the tea party sarah palin was calling on women to be kind of mama grizzlies and protect your cubs from government overreach, or from immigrants or whatever it is right, so a lot of this can attract women, especially when women are in charge, you know, and it's a woman calling on you to lean into your role as a mother or as a wife or lean in the right. exactly. and the reason i think of that is the liberal feminism is making a very different argument allows women don't identifies and so quite frankly, they have no investment in advancing a feminist agenda. right. but some of these women do use the hillary clinton

example. do identify as feminist they're taking on or they're endorsing, they're supporting the victories of women leaders who are who's, who's victory signal really the undermining of feminist goals around all sorts of empower. absolutely. i think we have to hold the contradiction sort of in our hands while we're understanding, as you can't assume that a woman is going to be supportive of, of any rights for women. and in fact, in, in these cases, we're seeing repeatedly the majority of women who voted for trump in 2016 and again in whenever you think that is the perfect example. 20162020. the majority of white women in the united states of america voted for dominic priest in 2020. when and i'm baffled by right. i mean 26 women of accusing sexual misconduct. he introduced policies that chip away, women's health, women's, economic, security, etc. i don't know. it's mind boggling when you fast sport, even to the capital insurrection. on january 6th, 2021,

women represented 14 percent of people being arrest and some of the really violent people as well. right. silence. why? there's so many women united states shifting to the forward. it just seems so counterintuitive to me. i think, you know, there are a lot of different things. one, i think women are they, they are enjoying those leadership role that they couldn't before. right. so the white women have always been involved. let's say somebody was making the ku klux klan hoods right there. there's sewing there, homeschooling, they're cooking right. they have always supported these violent lights, supremacists movements and other far right movements throughout history. but now they're able to step into leadership roles in large part because a lot of this happens in social media spaces where they are able to step away from some of the massage, any or the harassment that they might have experienced in other settings. and so they're taking advantage of that and but the, but we can't count on women just because they're women, especially white women. as we've seen. we cannot count on these women to,

to be doing anything in their leadership roles that are supporting women's rights or anyone else's rights for that matter. drill down on this, this, this question of whiteness as well. my auntie, what do you make of the i did if m. o nationalism is predominantly supported by those who institutionally benefit from from whiteness it is. we're down to a drive in many ways to protect the privileges associated with race. yes, i think it does. and i think what you see, as i mentioned earlier, you know, some nationalism is heavily linked with a kind of anti islam on the phobic discourse about too many muslim immigrants about, you know, the suppose the massage, the texas muslim man versus the enlightened gender politics of white men, european men, and so i think race has a lot to do with this. i do think religion also has a lot to do with us in the sense that as long as you know, race and religion in europe right. in 2016 the far right french politician marine the pen, stated,

i am scared that the migrant crisis signals the beginning of the end of women's rights. this again, point to the idea that non western migrates are a threat to women's rights to women's values, and therefore we need immigration laws that are more restrictive. but what does it say about how we're defining women's rights today? when someone actually say that women's rights are under threat, which women are they talking about? right, well i will say to say, i think 2 things are important to keep in mind here. one is that the issue of insecurity, right, of feeling unsafe, a feeling insecure socially is actually getting at something real. and that is partly due or actually in some ways, largely due to the kind of cuts in social program, the economically liberal policies that all of these governments have through including, you know, in france and italy, all over europe. and so there is a sense,

i think, amongst a lot of people of feeling, you know, socially insecure. now i think what happens is that, that feeling of social insecurity get deferred onto black and brown immigrants. and so, rather than taking care of the kind of the sense of social insecurity, and i mean, you cannot make insecurity that many, many people who are not wealthy in europe are feeling the solution, then become immigrants and get let's get rid of immigrants rather than let's actually deal with economic policy that makes people more secure and come back to the question of women's rights in the sense that i think i mentioned this earlier. if we understand women's rights in the strictly kind of abstract sense, right? then kind of far right women's rights discourse makes sense. but if we, if we think about what women actually need in their real life, things like health care, things like childcare, you know, the kind of social security that many women need. then i think the women's rights

discourse takes on a very different kind of flavor. and so it's not really surprising to me that someone like hillary clinton would laud the election of georgia maloney as a feminist. you know, a feminist arrival of sorts. because hillary clinton's understanding of feminism is largely right space versus, you know, let's call it accept based on materialist write about material goods and material rights for women like access to abortion and not just the right to abortion, but actually access for poor and rural women to abortion which has been undermined again and again and again by republican policies. but the kind of liberal feminist discourse has been about the right to abortion rather than access. and i think that, that, that is, it is a problem with the kind of liberal feminism, frank, that's an important distinction you're making. in cynthia, you've written about the quote fantasy of

a white ethno state. the white supremacists desire for a white, a white homeland. at the root of this is great replacement theory, which is a conspiracy about the global plot to drive white people to extinction and gasp, replace them with black and brown people. you've written about how anti abortion movement, including in the united states, have capitalized on this fear of a decline in the white population. the decline of birth rates can. can you explain how this manufactured fear of white extinction has been exploited by the anti abortion groups? these scapegoating fears of like white civilization dying out, you know, has always, has been there for decades at least for, you know, for longer. but there's, you've seen language around birthrates declining birth rates and, you know, and then the boundaries of whiteness opening up. also like bringing more people in

the italians, the irish, the people that used to be excluded on the census suddenly become white. right to, to keep keep whiteness boundaries. opening up. i would say at the same time as you have these fears about declining birthrates and demographic change. so you know, we see that right now with this call for like to call on white women to have more white babies essentially. right? this pro natal is kind of claim about that but feeding right into right into arguments about, about great replacement essentially like that. that is your obligation to do that. and so i think some of this language around motherhood around being a mother around protecting your cubs is also kind of coded with language about white mothers. it's about, it's really about a specific kind of mother and, and about because it's not, it's not a young immigrant mother who's coming in with, with 4 or 5 kids that they're applauding here. right. it's definitely like the, the, the new style job for some kind of fantasy of

a 1900 fifties housewife with 6 white babies that they're raising up to replace these kinds of civilization. so i think that's really important to understand what the sisters are part of what make the narrative compelling. right? sorry. i mean, there's a way that when we in the united states where i'm sitting here, oh, we're going to go liberate those women. those women can't go out of the house without a male part, and those people have to wear over garments. it is a very particular way that these matters are compelling because of the long history of patriarchy massage, need. how do we disentangled those things? the reality of the patriarchy, but also the real dangers, and reinforcing a nationalist project through f. m. o. nationalism. yes, definitely. in the west, we have seen that these, i mean, these not refuse about, you know, the why to euro piano. you are american civilization. saving the rest of the war, them particularly we men from backward,

the cultural religious practices you name to mean it's a pretty very old. i mean, even colonialism that was justified in these ways. and the natives in that, in the colonies were portrayed as in theory or not even as fully human beings. and so in that sense. and what i would say is that there is a certain narrative amongst the many white western families. so that and in many ways the rights that women have conquered are through coming back to us in the west . somehow makes the gender read make agenda relations in the west superior to those in other countries in the somehow gives a white we made that in europe. when in america, kind of moral superiority for this women is the people that somehow le, more a duty to show these women the past, the, to real emancipation. and i think what is the very much forgotten is that

colonialism certainly had a very important role in that, in many ways that even that preventing or somehow blocking the, the fight for women thrive in, in some of these, all of these colonies. the last thing that i always tell my students is that in egypt and the rights for women to vol to ease conquered in 1950, if 56 are in switzer lambda, we men that have the full right to both in 99 to one. so this is all, it's just to say that we really need to understand these histories and the implication off the really western colonialism, a western narratives there in how gender relations and women's rights are of been portrayed around the world. since you've written about how historically white women have been part of the radical right,

you talked about it earlier. you said they're the one sewing the k k costume. that's right. and they've been part of the kick a k, the be part of the pro nazi a german american wound up. but within these movements, women often face massage need. how do women in these movements sort of experience massage, any harassment gender violence. they participate in this right far, right. political activity. well, in some cases they're completely excluded, right? so we have groups like the proud boys who don't allow women and all right. so you still have some of these and of course growing men's rights and in cell and violent mel supremacist movement. so there's a lot of that side of it. on the white supremacist side. you know, we also see that one of the major reasons is not the major reason why women leave these movements is because of the massage in the harassment and sexual violence that they experience at the hands of men in those movements. you know, but we also find that in this moment of social media, when we have now and there's a young scholar name of an id who is about to have a book on this. i've just read which is about women influencers and social media

spaces on youtube and other places where they are really, you know, embedding, homeschooling and cooking and kind of related content with white supremacist extremist content at the same time. right. and it's very instagram ish like in the sense statically with like, you know, there's always like a white black white woman in a field of wheat with a little dappled deer. and you know, like, and in the woods with the light, is very statically pleasing. you know very much this kind of like farm to table purity of organic food embedded into the purity of your race and the way you're right. you know, very insidious and, and there's a lot of that on a lot more than you think. and, and i think it connects to women's hobbies in some cases and to their sense of self and their own kind of empowerment if you will, at the same time, is there really horrific, you know, exclusionary ideas? anti immigrant is i'm a phobic, racist ideas that they're expressing. but embedded as like, you know,

this kind of you know, rustic motherhood, homeschooling package. and so i think there's a lot going on that social media platforms and online spaces have enabled. as women have been able to forge this and i hate to say kind of empowered spaces online that enabled them to find a whole new channel and a whole new voice for expressing hateful content. part of what makes me hopeful that i see feminists who are recognizing what we're talking about. they see through and they reject them. nationalists ideas whether it's maloney, whether it's lapel, whether it's standing up to people like victor or by and they are doing the work. and so it makes me wonder, as we, as we sort of conclude here, what does an international inclusive feminist movement look like? that address is a global inequality. may i start with you? sure, i think what you just said about doing the work is really important. and i think

these movements have to start on the ground and they have to do the work on the ground. they have to do the work of figuring out how to deal with inequality. figuring out how to deal with social insecurity, figuring out how to deal with unemployment with, you know, health care with all of that sort of social issues that, that people care about. and, and i, so i think any kind of international feminist movement really has to start there rather than in a kind of abstract, right discourse, which is where i think unfortunately it kind of, you know, white, middle class liberal feminism has, has largely been so i think that's certainly where i would start. i think it has to start on the ground during the work. i re and i would add that i think we have to understand that our lack of policies for child care for the cost of higher education, for maternity paternity leave. contribute to the attractiveness of some of these movements, the ones that i've talked about for young women who feel like the system isn't

working for me. and i want an alternative and someone is out there offering escape, go fear mongering and alternate so it makes them manipulative. rhetoric kind of and propaganda even more persuasive to some people. and so the propaganda is, is made more attractive by our failure to address some of these basic issues of, of how people live in a life and how they can imagine a future for themselves. so i'll give you the last word. well, i completely agree with law has been a just said, maybe just a word of the whole. i also feel a little bit more optimistic in some ways that in the sense that i think the majority of we can say, spamming organizations, the self identifying feminist. so i think now they understand a pretty well the insidiousness offer fema nationalism and maybe 11 thing that i would say that gives me hope in the sense that is the way in which a news from iran are commented. it is true that

in some cases so as you can imagine, some commentators jumped to say that the problem is again, islam. and that islam does not to protect women's rights. but i see increasingly that actually the certainly the majority of feminist to, with all my speak, but even just reading the paper, sir, what is happening in, in iran, there is really much more it's really received as a problem. we are a, an oppressive regime that is that denying that women their freedom of choice or when he comes to choose what they can wear. and in that sense, this is to say, think that these awareness that the, the bashing of islam of the bashing of immigrants, for example, is really a nationally straight wing. a strategy that has not played with in a truly progressive feminist agenda,

i think is much more internalized by the younger generations of families. so, and this gives me some hope that certainly is a sign of hope. but i want to pick all of you for you, brilliant analysis or sentiment of you. thanks so much for joining me in a for everybody that is our show. a front will be back. ah, the dumpling in bond with guns is an important part of indian culture. it's no surprise and many people want to work in the industry. one dancer and one sided bones, family expectations, and cultural tradition. i guess the way now do i sign up with the reality of working in the giving industry? probably with the latest news as it breaks for

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