i've been soma has always denied altering the killing. sara, leah whitson, is executive director of democracy for the arab world. now, she says the decision to recommend immunity looks like concession by the white house mohammed ben selman has been very clear in demanding from the united states and demanding from the by did ministration. number one, immunity from prosecution from this lawsuit. and number 2, a bilateral security agreement, treaty by which the united states would commit to protecting the saudi regime. militarily the bible ministration has not done the latter, but now it has done the former. it has granted had been some man the immunity he was so desperately demanding from them. i think the hope is that they will gain concessions from him, but clearly the track record of the by and ministration, gaining concessions on things like the oil output have been a complete failure. it's really a humiliating position for the united states to take in front of the whole world to

say that it will sell justice for oil. particularly at a moment when the united states is trying to gain the support of the entire world to support ukraine on the basis of international law. justice accountability for abuses, to demonstrate so nakedly to the entire world. that those principles are for sale. when the uh price being paid is generous enough. ah, that is really shameful and scandalous, and this is what will mark present biden's legacy. he was the one who promised to the whole world that he would hold me accountable for the murder of jamal. i shall g and now today he is the one that is ensuring him. impunity. ok. got you out there with me. so robin and reminder of all top stories, kenya and rwanda, have agreed on the need to end fighting between rebel and government falls as an

eastern democratic republic of congo. m 23 fighters have made a major gains in recent weeks, forcing thousands from their homes. welcome, where possible from goma. the statement comes from kenya's, ministry of foreign affairs and published just a short while ago. and it says that the former canyon president who kenyatta, who is facilitating regional peace tools including east african heads, the state said that he had a phone call with rwandan president who gummy rolando is widely understood to be the back over the 23 group. they were wonder, was denies it, but in the statement it says that can you the call and agreed with me on the need for an immediate cease fire twitter headquarters are expected to remain close for the next 3 days. new basil must gay staff and ultimate him to sign up for long hours at high intensity or quit. hundreds have reportedly left organizes of the

world cup encounter have announced that alcohol will not be sold at stadiums that comes just 2 days before the opening match. ukraine says another wave of russian attacks, stroke energy facilities across several regions, leaving millions of people who darkness, of freezing temperatures. it comes on the 1st snow of the winter falls of the capital keys. those who had long to be back with the algebra news, i just did the half last time. next, it's inside story with folly to stay with us. ah guilty of murder. 2 russians and a ukrainian are convicted for their role in the downing of malaysia airlines fight m, age 17 over eastern ukraine in 2014 has justice been served and could the case set

a precedent for legal action over russia's invasion of ukraine? this is inside. so ah hello and welcome to the program. i'm fully back table. it's been 8 years since 290 people died. when malaysia airlines fight m a 17 was shot down over east and ukraine. a court in the netherlands has now convicted 3 men of murder in absentia is sentenced to russian intelligence officers and a ukrainian separatist leader to life in prison and ordered them to pay $16000000.00 in compensation. judges found the miss on that shot down the jet was russian made came from russia and was launched by russian controlled rebels. but none of the men appeared in court and it's unclear whether they'll ever serve their

sentences. a 4th russian was acquitted because of a lack of evidence. the dutch government has summoned the russian ambassador in the netherlands after moscow said the verdict caught neglected impartiality al jazeera, fet bass, and reports from outside the court in shipple. hey, who was here? who to see how i could see you. they traveled from all over the world to find answers, a g as after the life of their loved ones and abruptly in the sky over ukraine. more than 10 different nationalities were on board malaysian airlines flight and made 17196 of the 290. 8 victims were dutch. the plane departed from sipple to kuala lumpur when it was down over a war zone in eastern ukraine. the bodies of those on board and a brief from the plane fell in a field near the village of cub bowwie. the court ruled that there was no doubt that the plain was shut down with an anti aircraft book mis i'll brought in from russia and fired from

a field controlled by pro russian separatist to former russian intelligence officers. and one ukranian separatist commander are held responsible for transporting the missile. and when calling to see it, the buffets butler, the fade, the court considers proven that the suspects conduct bye to purposefully and illegally bring down a plane knowing to cause a mortal danger. anton carter lost his eldest son, daughter in law, and 6 year old grandson ramco, traveling to bali for vacation coast backpack was all that came home intact for us . is that fed important to shoulder world to show the russians she was you have done if you have taken the life of a 6 year old child and know we are atheist soda or at all that i asked myself. good afternoon, miss. all this is in the past 2 and a half years call to attend at more than 65 court hearings, fulfilling

a promise he made to his dad son, to find the truth, said judge thrust. how immense the suffering of the relative here has been for the past 8 years, with the bodies of their loved ones scattered in a field and is still ukraine some for weeks. but even though those convicted have not attended the trial, they feel that justice has been done. there was water in my eyes. with emma rose is a believable law expert say the verdict was groundbreaking. because for the 1st time, a court ruled that russia controlled armed and finance the separatists rebels of the don, yet people's republic and eastern ukraine. russia has always denied any involvement to russian foreign ministry has called the verdict scandalous, saying that throughout the trial, the court was under unprecedented prussia to impose a politically motivated outcome. prosecutors and a 3 convicted men have 2 weeks to decide to appeal. the verdict steadfast and

else's era hippo is now bringing our guests for today's inside story. in harrison in the netherlands, thomas shannon thomas lost his son quinn in the m. h. 17. attack in amsterdam. marie cur. the horn assistant professor of international criminal law at the university of amsterdam and in oxford, samuel romani, and associate fellow at the royal united services institute. welcome to your thank you very much for joining us on inside. sorry, thomas. let me start with you. if i can, your son quinn died in the mh 17 disaster. i know this has been a very difficult time for your family. tell us 1st about how you felt when that verdict was read out in court. do you feel just this has been done? does this bring you any closure i have difficulties in talking about and the closure. this will never be close. but the truth is that

yesterday was important to all of this was important to me. to finally hear a judge, an independent church, well respected internationally, that would say what happened, who is responsible and who should be convicted. so yes, it was a great day to finally hear what we know already in the past years. since we have received that information from different address channels already you, you followed the tile thomas from the very beginning. what was it like for your, for your family and be the other victim sammy's who were there with you. i did go twice to the board. i live in new york for 5 years. i wasn't able to when i was in the mountains, i did it or i tried to attend the hearings on

a live stream. the most difficult part was when the next of kin were allowed to tell their story in front of the board and to tell what happened to them, how they were spending their lives in being losing jobs. it was rather really painful people that you have come to over the past a year since she met them in different settings presentations. so they become you or your family, your friends, friends that you never wanted to have by the way. we know them, therefore it was a great gathering yesterday as well. but these past 2 years were difficult. it was difficult to hear the defense the lions. again, it was difficult to read all the time. those lies from the russian government. and

this decision yesterday hopefully will bring all these lies that were in the air all the time. that was the most painful for me. marie, could hon in amsterdam, you also followed this trial from the very beginning this case. and you were in court when the verdict was read, what was your initial reaction and do you feel that justice has been served? well, it's, it was a very long ago complex case and also leading to a complex outcome. i think they made a really great judgment and on the question of whether justice is done, justice is so complex. so if you think it just as only in terms of some sort of perfect justice when there's only justice, if the suspects are now perpetrators are in prison and then there won't be justice . but what i think the next of kin also show us so very well is that just as is so much more complex or so many more dimensions. and there is truth knowing there's

accountability not only by the way for the next of kin, but also for ukraine, that from 2014 has been saying to the world that russia was involved in the dom boss. and this court will so acknowledged that and hopefully, and that's also a form of justice. this a court ruling can also contribute to future generations in trying to settle on a common, historical and accurate historical account of, of what actually happened back then in 2014 a samuel romani. and oxford your, your reaction more than 10 different nationalities were on board. mh 17. was this verdict, a balance one and what do you think it achieves? why the verbiage is almost certainly a balanced land. we actually look at the details of this case is important to keep in mind a davinsky, one of the suspects and car jenko, the others us back dad actually communicated with each other on the day of the attack. saying that i miss i had struck a b cranium. dad jack in this was kind of

a or foreign jet that was coming forward and this was in the military success. and then the russians backtracked it with the farmers of burrows, of all said, like they typically do. they, he's ukrainian says even tried to assassinate vladimir putin, they claimed as ukrainian book missile. and that they've been promoting disinformation and conspiracies about this rate years. so this was a returned to the truth, i think that the verdict was just and there's a practical implications. however, it's very, very unfortunate to see as the suspects are not going to face punishment eager, chicago, and who after years of promoting falsehoods and claiming that the corpses were perhaps not fresh or that the ready is that it emitted in 2020. and there was some degree of moral responsibility because he was the commander of the union forces. but he lives in russia and his allegedly on the front lines, new grain with a $100000.00 battery, the lesser becomes a, b o w. he's not going to be punished and the other issue, it's the same bank. so if the victory for truth,

but it's very sad that the ultimate perpetrators of this are not going to be held accountable for their cramps. thomas, what further action would you like to see taken? because a samuel said, it's highly unlikely that the suspects will be extradited and also highly unlikely that the russian government will take responsibility. ah, well, i believe it will have to wait for boon and his government to step down or being overthrown, whatever the case. but the next president of russia, willie hopefully are willing to acknowledge their involvement and make the excuses to, to the families involved. so there is what i'm looking for, and this verdict at least now shows who has been responsible for supplying a book missile. and these 4 persons that were on trial. now, we know that there are many more that should young trials,

higher in rank lowering ring. i am personally not looking for one of them to do to be in general. i would like to see that the russian government is now 1st stopping all their lives and acknowledge their responsibility and we will wait for that. we will, i will put pressure on it. i will ask my government and the international governments to put pressure on russia to do that. and then we could talk to us about the evidence. the court had to, to way understand that were, was different. evidence from different sources. we know, of course, that moscow has long maintained that it had no party to the conflict that unfolded in dumbass in 2014, that he'd not did not control the pro, ration a fighters in due net. at this trial, during this trial and with the evidence, was there clarity proven as to who was to blame and whether russia had direct

responsibility? yes, the court was extremely clear on this and repeated over and over how strong the evidence was of russia's involvement, and that that book came from russia. and so the court really said clearly, there is no doubt that this has happened. and also there's absolutely completely incredible to think of a scenario that ukraine would have been involved if only for the impossibility of fabricating all that evidence. then within no time and the court has gone through every element of all the evidence. and that's a lot of that, and that's grades eisley. yeah. and so then they said that they didn't find any manipulation at all. so they did use of taps, recorded telephone conversations by the, as they you. but they then, of course, had them research forensically analyzed for tampering with they use a lot of information from usage like from people standing by seeing the book come

by making pictures and videos and posting them on social media. open source investigators that connected all of that social media post and other information. it was corroborated with telephone moss. so the phones that the recorded conversations were also radiated to telephone mast. it was connected also with satellite information where the reports looking at, for instance, the shades that you can see on the pictures and whether that was correct with the time of day in the sunshine and the type of weather it was and, and so there were so many different types of evidence, also witness statements, but not many, not very many of them that the court said there is just so much evidence. it is very clear. it's absolutely impossible that any of the alternative scenarios could have happened. it was russia, not ukraine, of samuel russia dismiss, has dismissed this verdict as politically motivated. does the case make the responsibility of the kremlin clear and your view either the case there's a,

there's once about the criminal, clear because it's undeniable that the process, the separatist and danny ask, were proxies and puppets of the kremlin right. ego gurkin arrived over there and the men did deb no revolution, nor an insurgency. and the radians had to fight against after the annexation of crimea. and it was part of a direct russian effort to stabilize each new crime and the rest of the country more broadly. so these actors were clearly part of russia strategic plan. and russia gave of firm directions for them on, on military activities. and that's why that's why i think that ultimately russia is to blame contextually along with the evidence that was just mentioned. ok, let me come back to you thomas. now because some victims, families have suggested that russia's full scale invasion of ukraine. this here may have been, may, could, could have been averted if the international community had pushed back harder against moscow in the years after the mh 17 disaster. do you share that view?

what do you think the international community could have done then? yeah, you know, if i do share that feeling, certainly this whole war that we see today started a years ago and i mean 17 was important to you. one of the biggest 1st casualties. i must agree that our international leaders from the united states, from far east any europe have not been able to draw the line for public and has accepted that he would go further and further further. and even today, i must say, i am i surprised to see what it allows to do you grant, how many people he is allowed to kill. but that is, that is a very,

very difficult political decision on how much we want to be involved. and do we want to have a world war? yes or no? i must say that the united nations in this regard has not shown any strength to avoid this kind of serious problems in the world. and i'm, and i'm really asking myself, what is needed? how is it possible that russia today is getting in so out of all kinds of international platforms to avoid any responsibilities? this is not the kind of world or the order that we are looking for is will world war 2 nations and it's not happening. yeah, i agree. and tammy did, did you think the, the west turned a blind eye in 2014? do you think the situation that we find ourselves in today in ukraine could have

been avoided? had some type of action been taken after the bounding of like m a 17. well, that was all related to each other in the identified m a 17, which is one of the major crimes that was committed with the other was of course the annexation of crimea, which was the 1st violation of international law and the sovereignty of a european states since the end of the 2nd world war, and the remainder was the entire warren dumbasses directly backed by russian troops until the mince agreement in the russian troops and advisers who assisted the denied eleanor militias did not leave. so there may, 17 is going to be viewed into the broader context of russian or russian against ukraine during that time period, which is a part aimed at over throwing. and d, legitimize in a democratically elected government for chicago. that took the power through a popular evolution of your might up. so in that context, i think that the west is a lot to blame for not taking stronger action. clearly signing your stream to expanding gas dependency and rich and russia. there's followed instead of imposing

more stringent sanctions, like some of the sort of sanctions that been imposed now was a major strategic and death. moral mistake in this context. and the fact that there was not any kind of clarity or any kind of verdict on this image. 17 case until now . and there hasn't been, that have pressure on it, has led to russia using some of the seen narratives and false eds justify it. walk rhymes, new grain today. i in boucher for example. it went from as a sheet operation to claim the corpses were stage with a friend who has train operation so many others. so 8th is a lot to blame from the west. in this point of view america, the i c. c has already launched an investigation into whether war crimes being committed in ukraine and have it set up a team to gather evidence about this. how does this mh 17 case set legal precedent on russia's invasion of ukraine? well 1st of all, it makes it really clear that russia is, has been involved, has been lying. the court also yesterday was very clear and beat that multiple

times. marcia has actually fabricated evidence, and in addition to the international criminal court, we also see cases against russia as a state of european court of human rights and in the national court of justice. the also all involved revolve about the question of the involvement of russia. it has many types of responsibility that's important here. and in terms of criminal accountability, it overlays on evidence and what we see also in the last 10 years or so, the huge revolution in the types of evidence that are being collected and this case as well as some other pages, you see the digital evidence, social media user meet user generated information is being used and is entering a courtroom. and this court yesterday confirmed that indeed, even though sometimes you know, that might not be perfect in terms of chain of custody or other types. you can test the reliability efficiently that it can be used, especially corroborated what other types of evidence that it can be upheld. and then also for crimes committed an ongoing and a conflict where it's difficult to,

to get to the crime scene by formal investigators that this type of evidence is admissible and very usable in improving them. but, but isn't it difficult though with that type of evidence to establish that chain of command in, in cases like this, it could be. but for instance, what's very interesting in this a case is you saw all sorts of usage and all sorts of social media open source research into the factual relations between all these individuals connected with record a telephone conversations. and when we think of the ukraine conflict and in the crime sort of being committed an accountability for them in the future, he s b u has shown that also for these individuals, but also telephone conversations with bo di and student grove and others. it has a lots of recorded telephone conversations of people already used in this and which 17th ross. so i think there's going to be

a lot to come for future prosecutions. all right, thomas, your thoughts about this? how significant is this verdicts for other cases being brought against russia? and are you hopeful i know as a, as a know so victims, family member that the chain of command can be established and perhaps that those at the top can be held responsible. well this is really very important for us that we know that the prosecutor here in amendments will announce early next year. know that's against other persons in the chain of command. i know from what i've seen from a gas that has been very helpful in this cult ring names, basis and media. they have shown the picture. all those people that are responsible, higher in the change. i do think that this is going to be very helpful to get to

these other people that are really responsible and we'll see these as i said by our prosecutor early next year, and i'm looking forward to that. alright, samuel, your thoughts? do you think generals and other leaders, russian generals, and other leaders, could be prosecuted, could president put in be prosecuted one day over the war and ukraine and other crimes committed? and how difficult will it be? you think in court, whether an international court or a special court that's set up to, to judge these crimes, to establish a chain of command. so obviously after this war started at the i, c. c, establish proceedings that would be able to deal with that. of course, russia is not a part of the i c c because it withdrew a trade some procedural obligations. and deb but many european countries that the americans, nato countries have been working with ukraine on collecting biometric evidence, collecting documentary evidence of what russian work crimes. so these tribunals can one day be held. ukraine has also initiated proceedings against lower level russian

military personnel and into resulting the state of convictions for cramps. but obviously, the big problem is that russia has got a categorical opposition to extradite its own citizens about a man who made that very clear. for example, when the investigation came out and there was discussions about extra any jury officers involved. rush interference, or you have any per goshen who was on the at the i was one of us and put was absolutely no, we don't extradite. so unless his political change inside russia, i don't think that it's going to be very likely that these out perpetrators are going to be brought to justice in person. but certainly a chain of command can be established in other figures like ser, cause who are so heavily involved in shaping your brain policy at that time can be prosecuted by gurkin car, jenko and assessments that we seen i yesterday. thank you so much. thank you for a very interesting and insightful discussion. thomas johnson marie could hone and samuel romani. thank you all 3 of you for joining us today on the inside story and

thank you for watching. you can watch this program again any time by visiting our website at al jazeera dot com for further discussion. go to our facebook page at facebook dot com, forward slash ha, inside story. you can of course, also join the conversation on twitter. we are a j inside story from me funny back to the whole team hearing doha, thanks for watching fife and ah aah! and every footstep moving in the sink with the world to bring health equity for all

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