re buses all the way to dough hostage, he said this is where people will come to have their id and passport checked as well as their higher cards. the $22.00 counts is here for that to happen. they'll then put their bag through the scanner, and beyond here is the bank of buses waiting to take them to do how we spoke to a couple of people who've been through this process today. and this is what they had to say. this is really good to disorganized people are, weren't coming to help us on the process. part of it is really not really just rug roll going towards spin bronze. it also rather too much out. we're excited to do this game of golf river play of their plane and we want to do so for the band pair that well cut journey is finally underway. when they get on the road to cattle, they will see thousands of flags lining the root. the flags of the world carpet the nations that are participating, and they will really get

a sense of the excitement that is building hearing ha, ah, watching al jazeera, these are the headlines this. our voting is under wayne. malaysia's general elections, for it is a choosing from a 945 candidates. the polls expected to be the tide. it's since it's 1957 independence is forming. here as president, donald trump has hit out of the decision to appoint a special counsel to oversee investigations into his handling of classified documents after leaving office. one time war crimes and prosecutor jack smith will also look into allegations that trump tried to overturn the 2020 election results to ukraine, where the 1st train to newly liberated her son is expected to arrive from keith. the rallying between the 2 cities has been restored after russian troops withdrew

earlier this month, most of your cranes trains have continued to operate during the war despite repeated attacks. and ukraine's president says, 17 regions are without electricity is russia continues targeting energy infrastructure. the capital cave, odessa, vanessia antenna pill of the worst, his un has warned. the power and water shortages could cause a humanitarian emergency can use formal leader who, who ro, kenyatta, and we're one. does president polk, a guy may have a grade on the need for c spy in east and democratic republic of congo? m. 23 rebels have made major gains in race awakes, forcing hundreds of thousands of people to flee. the cop 27 climate summit in egypt has been extended after delegates failed to agree on a deal by friday. an agreement on a loss and damage policy remains one of the sticking points. it calls for rich nations to compensate developing countries for the impact of climate change.

and north korean leader kim jong on presented his daughter to the world for the 1st time, her existence had previously never been publicly confirmed. photo showed the true hand in hand inspecting the launch of the country's largest ballistic missile. young anc testified an intercontinental ballistic missile on friday. all right, those are the headlines i'm that emily angle in the news continues here after inside storing ah, guilty of murder. 2 russians and a ukrainian are convicted for their role in the downing of malaysia airlines fight m, age 17 over eastern ukraine in 2014 has justice been served and could the case set

a precedent for legal action over russia's invasion of ukraine? this is inside story. ah hello and welcome to the program. i am fully back table. it's been 8 years since 298 people died when malaysia airlines fight m a 17 was shot down over east and ukraine. a caught in the netherlands has now convicted 3 men of murder in absentia is sentenced to russian intelligence officers and a ukrainian separatist leader to life in prison and ordered them to pay $16000000.00 in compensation. judges found the miss on that shot down the jet was russian made came from russia and was launched by russian controlled rebels. but none of the men appeared in court and it's unclear whether they'll ever serve their

sentences. a 4th russian was acquitted because of a lack of evidence. the dutch government has summoned the russian ambassador in the netherlands after moscow said the verdict, quote, neglected impartiality al jazeera fet boss and reports from outside the court in shipple. yeah, who was here, who to see how i got you. they traveled from all over the world to find answer 8 years after the life of their loved ones, ended abruptly in the sky over ukraine. more than 10 different nationalities were on board malaysian airlines flights and made 17196 of the 290. 8 victims were dutch. the plane departed from hipaa to kuala lumpur when it was down over a war zone in eastern ukraine. the bodies of those on board and they brief from the plane, fell in a field near the village of cub bowwie. the court ruled that there was no doubt that the plain was shut down with an anti aircraft book missile brought in from russia and fired from a field controlled by pro russian separatist to form

a russian intelligence officers. and one ukrainian separatist commander are held responsible for transporting the missile. and when calling to see it, the buffets butler fade, the court considers proven that the suspects condemn fire to purposefully and illegally bring down a plane. knowing to cause a mortal danger. anton called lost his eldest son, daughter in law and 6 year old grandson amaco travelling to bali for vacation coast backpack was all that came home intact. for us. is that fair, important to shoulder world to show that the russians she was you have done if you have taken the life of a 6 year old child and know we are atheist soda or an all that her as myself. hey miss. all this is in the past 2 and a half years court to attend at more than 65 court hearings, fulfilling

a promise he made to his dad, son, to find the truth, said judge thrust. how immense the suffering of the relative here has been for the past 8 years, with the bodies of their loved ones scattered in a field and is still ukraine some for weeks. but even though those convicted have not attended the trial, they feel that justice has been done. there was water in my eyes. what emma rose is and believe, will la experts say the verdict was groundbreaking. because for the 1st time, a court ruled that russia controlled armed and finance the separatists rebels of the don, yet people's republic and eastern ukraine. russia has always denied any involvement to russian foreign ministry has called the verdict scandalous, saying that throughout the trial, the court was under unprecedented prussia to impose a politically motivated outcome. prosecutors and a 3 convicted men have 2 weeks to decide to appeal. the verdict steadfast and

else's era. he pulled, ah, it is now bringing our guests for 2 days inside story. in harrison in the netherlands, thomas shands men, thomas lost his son quinn in the image. 17 attack in amsterdam, marie cur, the horn assistant professor of international criminal law at the university of amsterdam and in oxford, samuel romani, and associate fellow at the royal united services institute. welcome to your thank you very much for joining us on inside. sorry, thomas, let me start with you. if i can, your son quinn died in the mh 17 disaster. i know this has been a very difficult time for your family. tell us 1st about how you felt when that verdict was read out in court. do you feel just this has been done? does this bring you any closure? i have difficulties in talking about and closure. this will never be close. but

the truth is that yesterday was important to all of this was important to me. to finally hear a judge, an independent church, well respected internationally, that would say what happened, who is responsible and who should be convicted. so yes, it was a great day to finally hear what we know already in the past years. since we have received that information from different address channels already, you followed the tile, thomas from the very beginning. what was it like for your, for your family and be the other victim sammy's who were there with you. i did go twice to the board. i live in new york for 5 years. i wasn't able to when i was in the mountains i did or i tried to attend the hearings on

a live stream. the most difficult part was when the next of kin were allowed to tell their story in front of the board and to tell what happened to them, how they were spending their lives in being losing jobs. it was rather really painful people that you have come to over the past a year since she met them in different settings presentations. so they become you or your family, your friends, friends that you never wanted to have by the way. we know them, therefore it was a great gathering yesterday as well. but these past 2 years were difficult. it was difficult to hear the defense lines. again, it was difficult to read all the time. those lies from the russian government. and

this decision yesterday hopefully will bring all these lies that were in the air all the time. that was the most painful for me. marie, could hon in amsterdam, you also followed this trial from the very beginning this case. and you were in court when the verdict was read, what was your initial reaction and do you feel that justice has been served? well, it was a very long complex case and also leading to a complex outcome. i think they made a really great judgment. and on the question of where the justice is done, justice is so complex. so if you think it just is only in terms of some sort of a perfect justice when there's only justice, if the suspects are now perpetrators are in prison and then there won't be justice . but what i think the next of kin also show us so very well is that just as is so much more complex,

there's so many more dimensions. and there is truth telling there's accountability not only by the way for the next of kin, but also for ukraine, that from 2014 has been saying to the world that russia was involved in the dom boss. and this court also acknowledged that and hopefully, and that's also a form of justice. this a court ruling can also contribute to the future generations in trying to settle on a common historical and accurate historical account of, of what actually happened back then in 2014 yeah. iris, samuel romani, and oxford your, your reaction more than 10 different nationalities were on board m h, 17, was this verdict, a balance one and what do you think it achieves? why the verbiage is almost certainly a balanced land. if you actually look at the details of this case is important to keep in mind a davinsky, one of the suspects and car jenko, the others us back dad actually communicated with each other on the day of the attack. saying that i miss i had struck a b cranium. dad jack in this was kind of

a or foreign jet that was coming forward and this was in the military success. and then the russians backtracked it with the farmers of burrows, of all said, like they typically do. they, he's ukrainian says even tried to assassinate vladimir putin, they claimed as ukrainian book missile. and that they've been promoting disinformation and conspiracies about this right years. so this was a returned to the truth, i think that the verdict was just and there's a practical implications. however, it's very, very unfortunate to see as the suspects are not going to face punishment eager, chicago, and who after years of promoting falsehoods and claiming that the corpses were perhaps not fresh or that the ready is that it emitted in 2020. and there was some degree of moral responsibility because he was the commander of the union forces, but he lives in russia and his allegedly on the front lines, new crane with $130000.00 battery, the lesser becomes a, b o w. he's not going to be punished and the other issue, it's the same bank. so if the victory for truth, but it's very sad that the ultimate perpetrators of this are not going to be held

accountable for their cramps. thomas, what further action would you like to see taken? because a samuel said, it's highly unlikely that the suspects will be extradited and also highly unlikely that the russian government will take responsibility. well, i believe that we will have to wait for both and have government to step down or being all the throng, whatever the case. but the next president of russia will be awfully willing to acknowledge their involvement and make the excuses to the families involved. so that is what i'm looking for, and this verdict at least now shows who has being responsible for supplying the book miss. now, and these 4 persons that were on trial. now we know that there are many more that your young trial higher the rank lowering ring. i am personally not looking

for one of them to do to be in jail. i would like to see that the russian government is now 1st stopping all their lives and acknowledge their responsibility. and we will wait for that. we will, i will put pressure on it. and i will ask my government and the international governments to, with pressure on russia to do that. maria talked to us about the evidence. the court had to, to way understand that word was different evidence from different sources. we know, of course, that moscow has long maintained that it had no party to the conflict that unfolded in dawn back in 2014, that he not did not control the pro ration fighters in due net. at this trial, during this trial and with the evidence, was they clarity, proven as to who was to blame and whether russia had direct responsibility.

yet the court was extremely clear on this and repeated over and over how strong the evidence was of russia's involvement, and that that book came from russia. and so the court really said, clearly, there is no doubt that this has happened. and also there's absolutely completely incredible to think of a scenario that ukraine would have been involved if only for the impossibility of fabricating that evidence. then within no time and a court has gone through every element of all the evidence. and that's a lot that's very tightly clear. and so then they said that they didn't find any manipulation at all. so they did use taps record a telephone conversations by d as you. but they then, of course, had some research friendly analyzed for tampering with they use a lot of information from usage, but like from people standing by seeing the book come by making pictures and videos

and posting them on social media. open source investigators that connected all of that social media post and other information. it was corroborated with telephone ma, so the phone that the recorded conversations were on also radiated to telephone. it was connected also with satellite information, weather reports looking at for instance, the shades that you can see on the pictures and whether that was correct with the time of day in the sunshine and the type of weather it was and, and so there were so many different types of evidence, also witness statements, but not many, not very many of them that the court set. there is just so much evidence. it is very clear. it's absolutely impossible that any of the alternative scenarios could have happened. it was russia, not ukraine, a family of russia dismiss has dismissed this verdict as politically motivated. does the case make the responsibility of the criminal clear and your view either

the case there's a, there's a possibility, the criminal clear because it's undeniable that the process, the separatist and danny ask, were proxies and puppets of the kremlin right. ego gurkin arrived over there and the men did deb no revolution nor an insurgency that the radians had to fight against after the annexation of crimea. and it was part of a direct russian effort to stabilize each new crime and the rest of the country more broadly. so these actors were clearly part of russia strategic plan. and russia gave of firm directions for them on, on military activities. and that's why that's why i think that ultimately russia is to blame contextually along with the evidence that was just mentioned. ok, let me come back to you thomas. now because some victims, families have suggested that russia's full scale invasion of ukraine. this here may have been, may, could, could have been averted if the international community had pushed back harder against moscow in the years after the mh 17 disaster. do you share that view?

what do you think the international community could have done then? yeah, you know, if i do share the feeling certainly prove that this whole war that we see today start at 8 years ago and 17 was the one of the biggest 1st casualties. i must agree that our international leaders from the united states, from far east any europe have not been able to, to draw the line for and has accepted that he would go further and further further. and even today, i must say i am i surprised to see what it allows to do you bring, how many people he is allowed to kill. but that is,

that is a very, very difficult political decision on how much we want to be involved. and then we want to have a 3rd world war, yes or no. i must say that the united nations in this regard has not shown any strength to avoid this kind of a serious problems in the world. and i'm, and i'm really asking myself, what is needed, how is it possible that russia today is getting it so out of all kinds of international platforms to avoid any responsibilities. this is not the kind of world or the order that we are looking for says will world war 2 nations. and it's not happening. yeah, i agree. and tammy did, did you think the the west turned a blind eye in 2014. do you think the situation that we find ourselves in today in

ukraine could have been avoided? had some type of action been taken after the bounding of flight m a 17. well that was all related to each other in his identified m a 17, which is one of the major crimes that was committed with the other was of course the anesthesia crimea, which was the 1st violation of international law and the sovereignty of a european states. since the end of the 2nd world war, and the remainder was the entire war and on bass is directly backed by russian troops until the mins agreement in the russian troops and advisers who assisted the denied eleanor militias did not leave. so there may, 17 is going to be viewed into the broader context of russian russian against ukraine during that time period, which is in part aimed at over throwing and d, legitimizing a democratically elected government of foreign jenko that took for power through a popular revolution of your my debt. so in that context, i think that the west is a lot to blame for, not taking stronger action, clearly signing your stream to expanding gas dependency and rich in russia. there's followed instead of imposing more stringent sanctions,

like some of the sort of sanctions that been imposed now was a major strategic and death. moral mistake in this context. and the fact that there was not any kind of clarity or any kind of verdict on the semi 17 case until now. and there hasn't been that have pressure on it, has led to russia using some of the seen narratives and false eds justify is walk rhymes new grain today. i in boucher for example. it went from as a sheet operation to claim the corpses were stage with the creditors train operation, so many others. so 8th is a lot to blame from the west. in this point of view america, the i c. c has already launched an investigation into whether war crimes have been committed in ukraine. enough is set up a team to gather evidence about this. how does this mh 17 case set legal precedent on russia's invasion of ukraine? well, 1st of all, it makes it really clear that russia is, has been involved, has been lying. the court also yesterday was very clear in the the multiple times,

marcia has actually fabricated evidence. and in addition to the international criminal court, we also see cases against russia as a state of european court of human rights and in the national court of justice. that also will involve revolt about the question of the involvement of russia. it has many types of responsibility that's important here. and in terms of criminal accountability, it overlays on evidence. and what we see also in the last 10 years is so the huge revolution in the types of evidence that are being collected and this case as well as some other cases, you see the digital evidence social media user meet user generated information is being used in entering not a courtroom and this court yesterday confirmed that indeed, even though sometimes you know, that might not be perfect in terms of chain of custody or other types. you can test the reliability efficiently that it can be used, especially corroborated what other types of evidence that it can be upheld and that also for crimes committed an ongoing on a conflict where it's difficult to,

to get to the crime scene by formal investigators that this type of evidence is admissible and very usable in improving them. but, but isn't it difficult though with that type of evidence to establish that chain of command in, in cases like this, it could be. but for instance, what's very interesting in this a case is you saw all sorts of usage and all sorts of social media open source research into the factual relations between all these individuals connected with record a telephone conversations. and when we think of the ukraine conflict and in the crime sort of being committed an accountability for them in the future, he s b u has shown that also for these individuals, but also telephone conversations with bullet di and student grove and others. it has a lots of record, a telephone conversations of people already used in this and which 17th ross. so i think there is going to be a lot to come for future prosecutions. all right,

thomas, your thoughts about this? how significant is this verdict for other cases being brought against russia? and are you hopeful i know as a, as a know so victims, family member that the chain of command can be established and perhaps that those at the top can be held responsible. well this is really very important for us that we know that the prosecutor here in amendments will announce early next year. know that's against other persons in the chain of command. i know from what i've seen from a guest that has been very helpful in this cult ring names, basis and media. they have shown the picture, all those people that are responsible, higher in the change. so i do think that this is going to be very helpful to get to

these other people that are really responsible and we'll see these as i said by our prosecutor early next year, and i'm looking forward to that. alright, samuel, your thoughts? do you think generals and other leaders, russian generals, and other leaders, could be prosecuted, could president put in be prosecuted one day over the war and ukraine and other crimes committed? and how difficult will it be? you think in court, whether an international court or a special court that's set up to, to judge these crimes, to establish a chain of command. so obviously after this war started at the i, c. c, establish proceedings that would be able to deal with that. of course, russia is not a part of the i c c because it withdrew a trade some procedural obligations. and deb but many european countries that the americans, nato countries have been working with ukraine on collecting biometric evidence, collecting documentary evidence of russian work crimes. so these tribunals can one day be held. ukraine has also initiated proceedings against lower level russian

military personnel and into a buzz. i'll be mislaid of convictions for cramps. but obviously, the big problem is that russia has got a categorical opposition, do extracting its own citizens about a man who made that very clear. for example, when the investigation came out and there was discussions about extra any jerry officers involved, rush interference or you have any per goshen who was on the at the i was one of us and put was absolutely no we don't extradite. so unless is political change inside russia, i don't think that it's going to be very likely that these out perpetrators are going to be brought to justice in person. but certainly a chain of command can be established in other figures like ser, cause who are so heavily involved in shaping your brain policy at that time can be prosecuted by gurkin cur, jenko, and assessments that we seen. i yesterday. thank you so much. thank you for a very interesting and insightful discussion. thomas johnson marie could hone and samuel romani, thank you to all 3 of you for joining us today on the inside story. and thank you

for watching. you can watch this program again any time by visiting our website at al jazeera dot com for further discussion. go to our facebook page at facebook dot com, forward slash ha, inside story. you can of course, also join the conversation on twitter. we are a j inside story from me fully back to the whole team hearing doha, thanks for watching bye for now. watching the world cup in 1982 glorious technicolor from spain. i've never seen anything like in these plays a lot of come from a different planets. and after that i was all in on the wilcox. i think we're forcing from doha, which is now my home on the very 1st woke up was going to take place in the middle east. it's going to be a nice it is a hugely complex and often controversial events cover. but once a ball is kicked, the passion and the excitement of football types are a commitment to

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