a few short steps across the main road in the village. and you've gone from england to wales. and the dolphin pub. landel, john turned proudly where's his wails top as he gets ready for the big game that the reds have to win. but nothing straightforward. here. he's from london and he's expecting most of his customers to be back in england. the village itself is le mallet. either way is english welsh. dabilla says it's, you know, we don't have one side and the other side, me personally, i'm, i suppose england. so i have oversee going to be 14 and, but really want west wales to win because it's very important for the country for local football club. connie mann, i have c claims to be whales, the oldest team. but of course, there's a twist as of this year, it's playing in the english league just as taught welsh teams such as swansea in cardiff, take part in england's professional system that doesn't stop. many of its players were being proud of their welsh heritage. and the same goes for laura alice jones

conway. she's from the area, unlike her husband to be watching the match with her. for this is all like welcome foreign o'connor thing as free and save us and whoever loses is going to have to pay for a nice not your wife. so kennedy to dish and do the dean barbara al jazeera honey menace on the whales, england border. ah right, going forward, i will be working on my wells pronunciation, this is al jazeera. here the headlines, nato. secretary general is calling on member states to pledge more aid for ukraine during winter as it braces for more russian attacks. nato foreign ministers are holding a meeting in romania. yes, stoughton berg has accused russia using winter as a weapon of war. ukraine's foreign affairs minister says nato mas speed up the delivery of weapons to his country, looking through the cameras. the last time i was invited to the native ministerial,

i came with 3 wars which were weapons, weapons, and weapons. and a lot has been done since then. in helping ukraine to equip all army was necessary weapons. and you've seen how we deliver to day. i have 3 different war, 33 other works which are foster, foster and foster. we appreciate what has been done, but the war goes on. we proved that we can defeat russia. we prove that we can win together in the interests of the entire euro, atlantic space. and the world guitar has struck a deal with germany to supply $2000000.00 tons of liquefied natural gas each year, starting in 2026 for 15 years. germany is looking for alternative energy sources after imports from russia were severely cut when it invaded. ukraine is really forces have killed, at least for palestinians, and 3 separate incidents in the occupied west bank. the palestinian health ministry

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his is around the world a returning artifacts to that countries of origin one in london has sent back its entire collection of berlin. hong's is to nigeria scott. it's one example of a trend of historic item as being returned from across europe, the middle east, at the americas. so how can other countries ensure that their cultural treasures are given back and can go on display for generations to come? this is inside story. ah, i'm adrian finnegan. welcome to the program. london's holamen museum has returned its collection of benito, bronze. as to nigeria, they were stolen in the late 18 hundreds by british colonial troops. after they

invaded the kingdom of benign it was now my dear. yep. the artifacts ended up in museums in europe in the united states, and african states have sought baritone for decades. but the museum is still keeping hold of hundreds of the statues out there is harry force at status off with this report. a major moment in a long campaign, in 1897 british soldiers sto thousands of finely wrought artifacts like this from then kingdom have been in modern day nigeria. now london's haldeman museum is returning these 6 pieces and signing over the ownership of $66.00 other. so called benny bronze is in its collection to enable this object to be displayed in museums for people to see people from outside the country to come and see in the context of where they have been looted is a significant moment for us. for now, there is 6 deliberate gaps in the museums display cases. more will follow with plans for significant number of artifacts to remain on an extended loan from the

jury and government. at the resurgence of the black lives matter movement in 2020 leading to sort of more concerns about how we accounted for the provenance of objects. so it was a kind of natural outgrowth into a tipping point. it's here though, the british museum in london, where the largest single collection of items taken from beneath in the 19th century remains more than 900 individual objects. the museum says it was to ensure that collection is shared as widely as possible. it isn't talking about returning one major. stumbling block is written into british law and $963.00 active parliament forbidding the museum from disposing of its exhibits with just a few clearly defined exceptions. in the statement, the museum emphasized its collaborative work in my area, saying we actively engage with partners through the bending dialogue group and the digital beneath initiative. while research and cultural exchange initiatives, also key priorities that in recent years, other institutions in scotland, france,

germany, and elsewhere have been returning items from nobody in bronze collections. over the years the debate has taken in concerns over security and conservation and legit area. but increasingly it's become one about justice and restoration nigeria as cultural custodians. so it's time for british and seasons and british politicians to write a historical wrong. harry faucet, al jazeera london, was harry said, the ancient artifacts scattered across collections around the world are slowly being returned to their original homes. in january, 5, roman artifacts stolen from the ancient city of palmera in syria were handed back. they've been camped on display in a private museum in lebanon since 2018. egypt also has a long list of stolen historical items that it once back. but that list is long and the whereabouts of many pieces unknown. the golden coffin of priest measurement was the it was returned to the sands of cairo. that was early after it was spotted in

a celebrity photo shoot, organized by new york's metropolitan museum of art. in february, a 700 kilogram mo i a stone statue, arrived back on easter island in the pacific. it had been housed in a museum in chiles capital since the 19th century. ah, let's bring in our guest then for today's discussion from london, we're joined by a barnaby phillips. he's the author of the book lute britain and been in bronzes. on a former al jazeera correspondent from attract in the netherlands. yas ran burden a senior researcher of colonial collections restitution at amsterdam free university. i'm from epsilon in sweden. louis she prodder and assistant professor of egyptology at apollo university, could savvy with a set gentleman barnaby. let's start with you. at the banana bronzes have become emblematic of this whole debate about cultural antiquities and where they belong. it's put some major western museums at

a difficult position. has that regardless of their intentions? yes, i think you're alluding adrian to the british museum of which has the largest collection of been in bronze is of all, almost a 1000 done, of course, which has a unique symbolic importance in this discussion. but indeed, in so many other discussions to do with recitation and provenance, because it is the national museum of the country, which was response also or for looting these items. i think events have moved very, very quickly. and as you say, they've left the british museum badly. isolated, just 3 or 4 years ago, the british museum was working together with other western museums and that reached a sort of compromise deal with their counterparts in nigeria, which the british museum was quite happy with, whereby they will gain to lend back parts of that. then in bronze collection in rotation, but things have moved on incredibly quickly and suddenly

a major weston museum which is not offering to give back. it's been in bronze is it's finding itself very much under the spotlight just from booking in ill tracks with so many western institutions now accepting that. returning cultural and antiquities, or at least the property titles of objects is the right thing to do. why, other, some people who vehemently oppose it still does their arguments have any merit? well, they have had merits for a long time, but things are changing and especially diffuse, changing the atmosphere. and i even would argue that r d and private connectors and some museums, they hide a little bit from the discussion as they are scared, you know, because he did the mood at the moment is very much pro distribution. of course,

one of the arguments has always been the ability of heritage institutions in africa, you know, to, to preserve the subjects. but this, you know, slowly this will be and i remember that say in the introduction to european media in the 90s in 2010. and so in this disability to preserve dominated news, and now it's much more the right of these people working this process to get their treasures back. louise, a brother in law, where does egypt government settle the issue of restitution? as we were saying so many precious ancient egyptian artifacts have been looted over the years. the problem is that nobody really knows where many of them are right now . where does the, the egyptian government stand in terms of, or even start in terms of getting them back? well, there's been a lot of discussion about the institution to begin with, of some very high profile monuments or artifacts. i mean,

we mentioned the british museum. so of course there was a, the stone is high up on the least compatible to the parking of marbles when it comes to relationships between the british museum and greece. but beyond that, i think that the, the topic is a particularly hot one, the floor, egypt, and western museum institution. so also because of how much, how many legal antiquities have left the country over the last decade or so at the time of the upstream with the political upheaval. of course, there was a perfect time for antiquity, looters, and sort of like less than ethical dealer. so to ma'am illegal expert antiquities from the country, so in need of the, the government of egypt, the has filed the requests for medicine to sions, and it is, it is indeed a complicated issue. i mean, something we tend to think of museums as i saw a cages where, where asian objects are, you know, put on display. but basically they just get caught in the asked about museums,

our cultural institutions. and so museums change as our culture and our society is change as so the topic of an institution is very much a valid topic. and i think what really matters is that we should really not think of it as a 0 sum game. there is this tendency of imagining that if the british museum is to return to these high profile item, then it's lost for the british family go international to this coming to london. but it's not that, as we heard that there is also gestures of collaborations between countries and music institutions, long term loans or so. we really should think of it's not as is it a sum game like somebody is gaining somebody's loss because it's not that we're talking about world heritage of total bottom. if there are challenges, they want that for a country like nigeria here. what, perhaps you could outline some of those challenges force. i mean there were opportunities to but what is there a danger that my julia could squander those opportunities?

it's a risk. yes it is. it is a moment of incredible opportunity but also jeopardy, but going back into the past and untangling. ready what happened is inevitably complicated when the british invaded the kingdom of bennett in 1897, nigeria didn't exist. nigeria was a british creation that came into existence some 17 years later. and it wasn't something necessarily that people who lived within its territories and have a visit. so we've seen that play out. for example, the in the case of the ban in bronze is the rock different interests within nigeria, all of whom are acutely interested in the return of the bronze is there is a federal. ready government where the headquarters in boucher, which talks about building a national museum when it's talked about doing it for decades. but there's no sign of it existing. there is a state government at o. ready state which is right involved in this issue. then of course, there is the above the king of any who is the great great grandson of the man who

was toppled by the british in 1897, and from whose palaces the treasures were looted to somebody who has an undoubted morrow or authority. in this case, but i think in broad terms, i think to read you had it absolutely right. we shouldn't see it as a 0 sum game. it is, i believe firmly in the case of the been in bronze as needed many other charges there is, there is a, a real win win situation. there's no reason why terrible wrongs of the past shouldn't be addressed that people in countries like nigeria or donna or cameroon, shouldn't be able to reconnect with that wonderful heritage that it should be returned to them. that seems only right, but that many of these treasures all well treacherous and they should continue to circulate around the great cities of all, well, britain, new york, paris, beijing, delhi, sidney. and so you do want to pick up on on,

on that slowly and go back to, to something that you were saying a few moments ago. for many years, those who resisted the calls have made the tennis argument that the artifacts wouldn't receive proper care if returned to places like nigeria and other countries from where they were stolen. i mean that that argument, as far as your concern is no longer valid. well, the point you said, you know, he africans would say, now finally, europe paeans are admitting that they have wrought these objects and other rovers. they want to make default to define the conditions under which these object that we given back. and if you talk with africans and that has also occurred in the been in dialogue group, this issue of the ability to preserve do go correct with it. you know, has been discuss wiley. and it's only because at a certain atmosphere of trust has been created. and so the africans had me

themselves that there is a problem and disrespect, but we should leave it to then to solve it. louise, you perhaps you can clear something up for me for and if you can, we'll we'll, we'll put it to to your son. barnaby, can you explain the legal differences between the terms restitution, which we've mentioned a lot so far the program returned and we're the term good conscience comes into it . well, the word the word good could be i can definitely tell you about the word good conscience. i mean it's so, so like trying to differentiate between now and restitution like legal issues and also i think alicia so, so for example, the distribution of illegally as michael the antiquity. so you mentioned this earlier on in the program, the coughing of niger mark at the metropolitan museum. i can tell you for a fact within my professional environment and when it comes to museum craters and academics, nobody would ever acting but faith that are serious problems with the antiquity

markets of the documents of the coughing and being completely and made up and falsified. hence, at once, the truth came to the surface, the coffin was straight away, returned to the government of egypt and it's legitimate owners. but the problem here goes beyond the idea of legal matter about the ation and where the legal rights standing. so sabbatical leads us about reparation of historical wrong. so again, the legal entity is that in the past and perhaps the signed contract and, and handed over antique, which is to european powers that those legal entity is no longer exist. thinking about again, the british museum, and in this case the partner marble so well at the time greece was part of the ottoman empire. so the official authorities in the end answer to part the powers in east them will the same. in fact, also in the 19th century for egypt, it was a problem of the ottoman empire. so that's really for some that's really actually the problem that i think is more difficult to define. ready where i think that

nobody will disagree when he comes to repatriate in the legal antiquities. the problem is the ethical issues. and so again, where do we decide how far do we decide to go? ready when trying to fix the wrong simplicity, luigi, i just want to ask you a little sidetracked here for a moment. there are cases where valuable artifacts have been moved in order to preserve and to protect them at times of conflict, especially in recent times in the middle east. tell us you your experience of that and how it differs from the case of been in bronze isn't another stolen artifact. i'm thinking in particular about places like palmera and how in times of conflict you protect sites of archaeological significance. there is a major issue. i mean, yes, bonita is a, is a good case about my, 1st of all in that case, much of it was an architectural monuments. so how do you move to protect those and also idea that moving antiquities to someone else, keep them safe,

especially to some other countries? well, it's highly arbitrary. and many people will actually object and say that a lot of antiquities, including egyptian antiquities, where lost during world war 2 in europe met plenty of addiction collection. i can mention in germany live sick, but also barely in plenty of fantastic antiquities. we only have photographs of them because they were destroyed doing the, the bombing. so we're to so in the case that those things would have been much safer, had to stayed back in egypt and own in other countries in asia, in asia, as opposed to being in europe. so once again, where do you trace these line? it's highly arbitrary and that's also that he's got once again of repeating man patronizing attitudes of the pastor. yes. not all artifacts in western museums were stolen or taken by force. how does that complicate the discussion that we're having here? well, it complicates particular problems research. if i, if you will allow me to give an example that the belgian federal government,

they have developed a law which says that objects that proven to, has been stolen from combo, for instance, a become automatically the property of the democratic republic of congo. so this property title is transferred. now they have investigated this, especially for the major, every museum near brussels. and they have about 80000 objects from cornwall. and they have calculated that both these 80883 are proven to have been stolen. now that means, and they argue that 45 thousands, they have been corrected. they have been collected in a correct way. and 35000. they do not know they still have to investigate. now this is a big, big problem because there is very visual documentation about this object. so probably we will never know precisely whether this is booty or not,

or whether this was gay to horace or you know, acquired in indisputable manner. so how do we handle that? and in my view, you know, the discussion in europe is currently very much focused on more and our feelings of shame of guilt, maybe about how we appropriate them. and maybe should be much more oriented towards the needs of the countries of origin for collections that they need. and if i may give an example, i know gets d indonesia to form a dust colony as a committee. and they work now along this line. and then you say, what do we need to have at the present address collection of our own cultural and historical past. finally, we heard in harry's affordably on about this 963 law, which prevents the british museum returning some, not all but some of the artifacts in its possession. to what extent is the british

government in particular, passing the buck at the department foot for digital culture, media, and sports in the u. k. a said decisions relating to the care and management of their collections are matter of the trustees of each museum should. should that be more government intervention here, a driven policy here to, to guide how museums act. i think the british government is being a bit disingenuous that yes so i mean just just a few people in the british museum act that prevents the british museum from permanently returning or accessing as music. people say objects in its collection with a few exceptions for which the law has changed in recent years, objects, stone, and during the holocaust and human body parts human remains. what, of course, if the law can change for those exceptions, why can't it change for say, objects new to during the colonial period asked the point is that the british

museum directors and trustees in the past have hidden behind this law. it's been a convenient excuse for inactivity nowadays. i'm not quite sure that is the case. in fact, i see the british museums around the divided place and some actuators within it are distinctly uncomfortable about the situation they're in, but they are unable to permanently return. the been in bronze is all for that matter. the partner models into the law. ready changes, and that would require a vote in parliament. and if you look at the current configuration of the british parliament with the conservative majority, that seems extremely unlikely to happen short of a general election and a new political configuration. so it is a national political issue, which generally does leave use in like the british museum, but also out of museums the dna than the national gallery,

hamstrung on this issue. undoubtedly, i want to spend the last few minutes the program talking about the future. louis, she, you were talking earlier on about about how the world can continue to enjoy and learn from these objects. should we know, expect you think, to see ancient antiquities presented in digital form rather than in post. and we've talked about a collections being loaned out to what extent does that water down the impact? and if we're seeing them in bits, if you like, not a full connection because it's been loaned out. does that detract from the educational value of visiting of museum? well, there's no doubt so that this is the direction where we are aiming in the future. there would be more and more amusing experiences more than just. ready walking through i time so that it will be more also replica. so because of how now we are

able to create a perfect quality replica. so, but these also doesn't concern adjust artifacts and objects in museum collections. these also concerns are monuments. i mean, if we think about some of the earliest a story or 2 examples in the caves of law school in france, nobody can actually visit the regional because just human presence. that will mean that the, the, the decay and permanent damage to the region out pigments or so every about, it's a replica. we have similar situations in egypt. for sam, at the credit of tombs that are too fragile. and so yes, in the that, that's the direction and i don't think that detracts to the educational value of the experience actually in a way can add to it because of the multimedia approach that we can use. if nothing else, i do appreciate that in my detract from that emotional connection, that one might have of the what is regional in ancient object. so there are that are still things that we need to fix,

that. this is also part of the conversation that we still need to have we have and so to get. ready you know out yet. ok, yes. we have about a minute left on the program. what will the museum of the future look like? well i'm, i'm not sure whether you'd have digital objects because for digital objects to, to link up of d, luigi sanders, that did the objects we should distinguish between on the one hand ceremonial religious object and on the other maybe household utensils. now for the letter digital read that creation can be a solution. but for the 1st, i know for most countries of origin, they want the originals to come back. and then if they allow it, we can, we can have made digital copays for in our machines. but i think in, in them our, the museum of the future, it should not be about objects. first of all, it should not be about storage. first of all,

it should be about the relationship between former colonized and former colonizers and his relationship. in the relationship who discuss, for instance, can we shall and settle remains. can we show mummies? can we show the sensitive pictures, photographs, et cetera? so it's a mental dialogue for the museum of the future. of that, i think is a great place to leave it. many thanks, update gentlemen, for being with a spot to be phillips in london. yes. one burton the new tricks and luigi product and apollo. as always, thank you for watching. don't forget you can see the program again any time by visiting our website al jazeera dot com for further discussion. join us that our facebook page that's at facebook dot com forward slash ha inside story. as you can join the conversation on twitter or handle at ha, inside story for me, adrian finnegan, the team here. and so how, thanks for watching to see it. ah

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