once in us history, he will remain behind bars until february, as he's been declared of a flight risk. you zealand is imposing a lifetime tobacco ban on future generations. and you set of laws will make it illegal to sell tobacco products and cigarettes for anyone born after 2008. this means the number of people able to buy tobacco will shrink. h. u. new zealand smoking, right? he's already at a historic law legislation is designed to cut the number of retailers able to sell tobacco by 90 percent in 3 years. ah, what you know does the are, these are the headlines this hour, according to kia, has sentenced assembled mer to nearly 3 years in prison for insulting public officials. it has imposed a political band on chrome in the owner who is seen as a k opponent to turkish president. rate of tied to $143.00 migrants attempting to

cross the channel have been rescued from cold waters of the coast of england. their boat capsized in the channel, at least for others, confirmed debt. and the cap sizing of that boat was addressed in the u. k. parliament during the prime minister's questions. this is beaca, i'm sure the whole house will share my sorrow at the cap sizing of a small boat in the channel in the early hours of this morning. and the tragic loss of human life, our hearts go out all day defected and attribute to those involved. in the extensive rescue operation, the ukrainian president says keeps a defenses have shut down a 13 russian drones. russia has destroy much of ukraine's energy facility is causing rolling blackouts in winter sets in chinese and russian influence on the african continent is coming under sharp focus at the 2nd us africa summit in washington, dc. president joe biden has invited dozens of african ladies for 3 days of talk

because the biggest international gathering in the capital since the start of the pandemic. the u. s. military has launched a new space unit in south kareem. it's in response to escalating threats from north korea. young has tested a missile that has the capability of reaching american shores for his government has expanded a state of emergency. his protest spread across the country. supporters of paper job castillo won him, released from jail. the former president is accused of an attempted coo and was arrested last week. and morocco's bid to become the 1st african side to get to a world cup final. we'll get underway and under 90 minutes time self take on france . the defending champions in the 2nd semi final right here at kata at albany, stadium, thousands of bands have flooded into the country on extra flights. the winter will take on argentina in the final. all right, those are the headlines. i'm emily angry. the knees continues here on al jazeera, after inside story to stay with us.

ah ah, you energy ministers meet again and fail again to strike a deal to cap the price of the actual gas prices of sword since washer invaded ukraine, the blog post to hurt moscow. but can the deep divisions whether the you be overcome . this is inside story. ah, i will come to the program. i'm adrian finnegan, european union energy ministers, held the 5th emergency meeting on tuesday to try to set

a price caps for natural gas. but once again, they failed. then the states 1st promised a seal on prices and october, but a divided on what it should be. they want to punish russia by paying less for its gas, while also protecting consumers from prices that of sword. since the ukraine war began, the split is between those wanting tough measures and those fearing the too low a cap might affect supplies that could happen, it produces sell to other markets instead of the e. u, with higher rates on off elsewhere. energy ministers want to avoid a sharp increase in the gas priced like in august. they're going to try to reach a compromise at another round of talks. next week. will be only one open issue for the discussion on monday. and this is the prize level triggering the mechanism. we have to make sure that the situation from this

august will not be repeated. i think we are almost there. but now we need to get together and show that unity is not then empty worked. but the core value of the will, which we all subst subscribe to. some that is worried about the impact of sanctions on the price capital net own people. hungary, for example, says it's national interests come 1st. it through santa, here in brussels. the debate continues to be dominated by sanctions rather than piece building. and then is a big problem. a very big problem. even though thanks and have clearly been shown to have failed sanctions or failed policy and sanctions have thus far lead european decision making and european reactions the war into a dealing to. i would like to reiterate that we consider the sanctions policy as a whole to be a misguided policy. when discussing sanctions, the most important aspects for us is that hungry and national interests and not

hump, and that hungry energy supply isn't jeopardize. so far, there's been agreement on some points, check, industry and trade from mr. yourself. sir keller says that they've agreed to keep what's known as over the counter contract out of the cap. there's a contract directly negotiated between countries and suppliers outside official gas exchanges. the exemption would allow for more sources of supply. they've also agreed to review the measure at the end of february to see how effective it's been . and the deal will include ways to swiftly remove the cap in case it has negative knock on effects. ah. so let's bring in our guests. for today's discussion from bern, were joined by cornelia my up, the ceo of my a resources and energy policy advisory from moscow. chris wife up the ceo at macro advisory, a strategic consultancy focused on eurasia,

and from warsaw varcheck. she belsky, the editor in chief of the political magazine, visegrad, welcome to you or connie. let's start with you. what exactly is a price cap on gas designed to do hot russia or protect e u consumers or both? and will it work? i think it's, it's designed to do both, but i'm not sure it's affected on either. am. it's designed to make sure that price is don't go too high as we have seen. you know, in summer prices went so high that people really feared for, for how they could supply. they could supply their, their, their population adequately. and it's also supposed to put a cap on, on, on the rough and on that mot. russia can earn that you have to understand that when you look at gas, and before the ukraine war about 40 percent to our firm, all gas coming to europe came from came from russia in germany. it was 55

percent since then. it's really gone down to about a 17 piss and, and people are putting on off shore liquids em offshore. weave gas, if occasion terminals, all sorts of things to make sure they can get more l n t, admittedly more expensive. but europe is not only slowly and steadily very quickly, weaning itself off its total dependency on russian gas. right? so really, if i, as you say that the dependence upon russian gas has fallen, why are certain you have the streets? what are the fillets are important to introduce this price captain? why are they trying to push it through? well, they're pushing it through because some countries really very much still depend on russian gas. if you look at an austria, if you look at, you know, slovakia and, and those bordering states, they're still really need and some states in the west and balkans,

they still need russian gas. so they want to avoid that too much. money goes to russia and, and, and then to the war efforts. but, but it's a matter, you know, this is a matter over the next 1218 months looking forward. it's really a matter of where will the gas for europe come from. but it will be a lot more expensive l n g is more expensive than russian pipeline gas, which comes from the weston and the western siberian gas fields on an infrastructure that's basically paid off. so you're having new infrastructure, more expensive gas, so it's, so prices are gonna go up in europe, no matter what chris reefer in moscow, how would russia react, that if a cap on the price of russian gas was implemented? well, it wouldn't hurt russia talk and it will kind of get a good get around the cap. well, 1st of all, to say that stare is much less a commentary and certainly much less debate about the proposed gas price

a cap. and there is or has been about the oil price cap. and certainly we've, we've seen a very fierce political reaction to the proposed boy price cap. even are now expecting that's a president. putin will sign legislation making is illegal for any rest producer to sell oil under the terms of the hard press cap. there has not been, or the any commentary about the gas price cap, but $1.00 of the reasons is the course the price level is begin to gauge the $275.00 euros a t t f. the benchmark price, ah, the price of gas has only ever been above that rapes for only a few days in august. the current price is almost half that level. it's about a 130 as so that's one reason why there's gonna much less excitement about this in

russia big because the levels are being set so high. and also i think the other reason is because wordpress, it does have options when it comes to transferring oil and we see of see a great effort now to secure tankers and other routes to shift on to raise you. you can't do that with gas. of course, because it's pipeline routed, so i think for now to position in moscow is there simply waiting to see what is agreed, what would be the impact? and i then will only then will we get a reaction from us. but it's, it's sort of itself, it's not going to have much time because that is our resource. i'm sort of down in let me clarify what you were saying that the current price of gases is well below where this, this cap is, is, is, is thought it's going to be implemented. so it's not gonna make much difference. no, it's not the current price. it's $130.00 yours is the price cap proposal is $275.00 . so it's, it's a long, long way office. i'm assuming that's the reason why europe wants to agree this is

because they are looking forward to next year. really, probably, europe is not going to have much of an energy problem this winter. this already enough gas has been secured as the previous speaker. sad has been very big in puerto l n g. and so reserves are high and it shouldn't be a problem this winter, but it's, it's already looking like in which were dangerous situation for europe coming in to to next winter may not be able to get the same energy supplies next summer as they, as it got this summer because china did not the buy as much energy as a contract, isn't there for allowed that energy to go to europe. if the chinese economy recovers as it now appears to be, then china will take out energy and europe on get it. so the position therefore is we could be looking at a much higher or a gas price and greater volatility in the gas market this time next year. and i think the mechanism therefore, is aimed at that rather than anything more immediate for check. what's poland

position on this? it's one of the countries that's pushing hard for this cap, isn't it? yes, bowden is. one of the countries that pushes hard for the camp, but as also one of the countries that has been for a long time pushing for european energy independence or interdependence by proposing and pushing for the energy packages that would build up european energy market as a whole. and not disconnect and divided market of nation states that has been abused by the other players like russia for their own benefit and the weakening, weakening the block. currently the, the gas price cap is being pushed down as much as possible. countries like poland and i believe between you as well. and should there be a big, there's a government about on that on that price? i don't think so. of course there is, there is, there is something behind closed doors that we do. we don't know yet. what it's coming to be, but it's part importantly we have to remember is part of

a broader effort called re power you. it's the commission effort to make europe as a block more independent from weaponized saying gas prices, gas deliver as energy delivers to europe. by specifically russia, any other actors in the future and it's a long term strategy. so just like my previous speakers said, it's about building a resilience. busy for the next year and the future year in terms of acting together as a blog and not this united as nation states markets, but just don't have any sympathy for landlord countries like hungry and austria who course, you know, don't have ports to take l n g and, and don't want to cap on on russian gas. that's the whole point of building interconnectivity. poland has been at the forefront of proposing inter connectors and buildings. in fact, since 2008, 9 the gas rises when. ready rushes,

turning off their, their delivery of gas to europe. specifically, central europe has been hit holland, along with other countries of central east in europe and germany and many other countries. i've been starting to build by with european support, so called interconnect doors to make the gas markets truly european and not landlocked to nation state. so austria and check lock and angry. they're being offered and they're being, they're having these inter connectors built to make the, the energy market and the gas market, specifically fully accessible to all europe for them to be more resilience against such kind of blockades, by, by ro, doctors clearly let's, let's continue with this idea of, of the interconnected world e, u, energy independence, co interdependence. is that, is that wishful thinking? do you think they will never be independence but into connect that with europe

started to build into connect this actually way before 2008, they started when they we have billeted when actually us money rehabilitate that. the gas bra ma'am. pipelines they were interconnect dispelled from z, brooker in them, in the, in, in holland, you know, with, with the noise noise, c, m, british gas. so this is been a trend and it's really important because we get gas from algeria. you know, we get gas from, from the mediterranean, then we get all the l m g of in spain and the mediterranean in holland, in england, in them, in and now in germany. so yes, this interconnectivity is really important. so gas becomes more fun durable. the problem with gas is oil. if you find oil and oil, we'll find the market as some our previous speaker, mister weaver said, you know, there's been our big shadow fleet board, especially by the russians to ship our oil to places where,

who do not adhere to the oil price cap. that's not possible with with gas unless it's l. n g with pipeline gas. so these in the connect us, oh, really the key to make and to make gas fun trouble. and yesterday, europe has been working on this actually since about 1998 from various places. and um and, and it needs to, it needs to speed that up, chris, there in moscow. what, what impact a sanctions against russia having on ordinary people when you talked about the fact that people are far more work dropped off a better approach? couple oil than they are on gas is, is any of this having any impact on daily life? 3rd rush hours please issues or not just is it a night mode or price are and, and it says ceiling with sanctions and furniture, government level or economist level, the ordinary people, you know, going about a daily life. people, of course, a consumer are aware and are affected by say,

the travel plans like to suit nurses and along across the border and supposed to countries or poland, et cetera, ah, price increases. we've seen this year because of trade disruptions and there is a general concerned about what the b economic impacts next year. people are generally more aware that rush is now entering a phase or you know where the accumulation of sanctions is going to start having a bigger impact on economy and jobs and their for their, their life. so this is there's a general concern there for about the accumulation deepak, the sanctions. people are not talking about oil price cap or gas price tap or i need those specific issues that security at the government level. and i would say all the pick up and discussions been about the oil price, not the gas cap. and you know, and again, you have to look, look at the 2 things. one of course is there's been a big disruption on gas volumes of the north stream. one was suspended and then i,

it's now been taken out of action. i saw that volumes of gas going into europe to the juice for pipeline and to the turkish to a pipeline are much less than than usual. that's a much bigger factor in terms of economic packed affected russian volumes have been substantially reduced. and i and that price, as i say, this year we seen a big jump in price, but russia is being used to a very low price look much less than a $100.00 for, for every year up to this year. so i really don't think therefore even if there is a gas price cap put in place at anything above a $100.00 t t f. i don't think the rest is going to react with an anything like the same way as they reacted to the one 1st cat. i think they live with it. all right, let's, let's talk about the, that the ears apparent inability to, to come to any sort of deal to fight unity on this void check at the beginning of the program. we pointed out that the check energy minister so that his fellow

ministers could face a reputation risk if they don't agree on this cap to stop the future price spikes. now, if 90 percent of the deal is done, what's the problem? what is preventing it getting over the line time and time again? well, we can only assume as we have. busy credible accounts of a 1000000 in a report that. ready to testify what, what is happening and behind the closed. busy but there are always countries in here that use cards to negotiate their individual interest on potentially even disconnected from this particular energy policy and countries like that. for instance, hungry. i've been oftentimes using the need to agree on certain common foreign policy agenda as, as a token and negotiating some something completely different along with, with other countries regarding rule of law or regarding some other types of funding

that they are seeking. so i would not. busy and i would not be surprised that again, country like this or the one that i mentioned or another may be finding it hard to agree at 1st because it's seeking a side deal if there is a parable negotiation coming. going on with, with, with respect to the individual interests of the given country, but that's purely speculative. that's however, the logic usually, decisions are being reached that these deals are being done. and i've seen that in the support of hungry for the 18000000000 supports a 1000000 euro support package for ukraine only this week week which is. busy which has been opposed by hunger previously and angry, agree to that in exchange and direct exchange for making us a few steps back by the european commission in terms of cutting funds for rule of law conditionality. chameleon is any of this going to make any difference, a tool for consumers, people like you and i, when we pay our gas or electricity bills. this is all

academic at the moment, but could across come on gas ultimately drive price is high. you said you think it would for, we still be paying more for on gas and electricity regardless we, we will be paying more for all a guess and for electricity. because even if we have a guys, a gas price cap, and even if the gas prices as mr. we, the point to doubt, you know, very rarely was the gas price above the price of the that the price cap. but when you look at d getting redirecting trade flows is always a very expensive on the taking whether that's now oil or whether that's gas and especially with gas. and l n g is a lot, dear, are a lot more expensive. so as we're winning ourselves off, russian gas and use more l n g at more gas from other sources, which will be more expensive. yeah, obviously we will have to, to, to,

to deal with that. and then depends on how our utilities buy the gas when they buy it, how they buy, and the way when we look at it now, europe was extremely lucky that china had to siro covet policy, anti economy didn't really boom. so a lot of cargoes, as mr. weaver said, we're die, we directed to europe where they could get better prices. but once china picks up and then this is east asian, i'm you know, place, which is a china korea, japan which are the largest and consumers of l. n. she. once that consumption picks up, you know, you will need, europe will need to pay a lot to, to entice cargoes to come here. and what we have in store though is u. s l n g, but that's per, that is still in the permitting process and we're still about 3 to 5 years off from

that hitting the market. so, you know, the gas and oil and light switches, these are, these are these, these, these, some info does. infrastructure takes time to create and it takes time to we direct of said the trade flows. so yes, in short, it will get more expensive for the european consumer, christine, to do agree with, we're quarterly, we're saying that not a lot about that the european consumer about where russia will sell it gas at a counselor to europe. ah yes, and i think look that this is the difference of a see what discussions on the gas cap from oil because the oil cap is very specific to russia, but the gas cap proposal is, will effect on gas purchased by europe. and i think it is right to focus on n n g and the headlines we will start the focus on, on pipe gas, because that's coming from russia you're for, it's targeting russia. so you get to get headlines. but the much more serious issue is, what will be the price cap analogy? will there be a price gap analogy?

because that is a more portable, movable products, if your caps the price and demand, you know, from asia and elsewhere, spikes, those tankers will simply turn around and go elsewhere. so i think europe will have to be extremely careful on what will be the price cap mechanism and the review mechanism for ellen g rather than fur for pipe gas, because we know the future as we tars is, and to try and acquire more and more elegy because it can be source and different places reduce pipe gas, particularly from, from, from russia. so, so the question of price cap analogy, i think is much more critical than the price cap on the oil or the gas coming in from, from russia. because yeah, if we get a strong recovery the asian markets, they will pay a lot more for the gas, and europe could end up with gas shortages in addition to higher prices, if they don't get, if they get this pricing mechanism route for check is,

is that much appetite in the u 2 kept the price of energy. well i, i don't know about the particular issue here, whether there is much appetite in europe, but there is much appetite in europe for broad energy package reforming and then the re power you program. they include the gas, the gas caps. it's also about introducing essentially the framework of a common european market and innovation in terms of getting more greener, alternative energy is more effective and an energy sources and lowering the consumption levels. so we need to look at it from the holistic perspective of what the you, meaning the commission and the countries want to achieve here. and there is a general agreement in the, in the direction it is going. there is, of course,

there are, there are some concerns that my, my co speakers have already mentioned, and they are supported by european national european central bank. that also is worried about not making the right call on the price card in terms of the level of the price gas that may create shortages. and this concern is being on the other hand, waited by the immediate effect of introducing a price cap, which is expected by countries like century center p. and one is poland, to have a direct and immediate effect on the income levels of russia through which russia funds, the war effort in ukraine. the, i'm afraid we're going to have to leave it. we are out of time. thank you to you all. cornelia, my chris, we and boy check should bills key. as always, thank you for watching. don't forget you can see the program again at any time by going to the web site at al jazeera dot com for further discussion. you can join us at our facebook page at facebook dot com, forward slash ha, inside story ad. as always, you can join the conversation on twitter handle at ha,

inside story from me, adrian. again, the whole team here and we'll see you again from the me. ah ah

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