cooling is flawed and then it no longer views home comments separate enough from china to justify having separate trading benefits. international trade experts say the stemmed off may be hard to resolve because of problems with the w t o is appeals process. the appellate body system is not functioning, but the system still allows parties to appeal. and so what we say is that they appeal into the void. certain members have set up a temporary alternative arbitration system. as a work around i'm calling is a member of that system. the u. s. is not the manufacturer is hoping for a speedy conclusion to the political wrangling, so they can focus on getting their post pandemic business back on track. richard kimble, al jazeera hong kong. ah, what's out there?

he's around the headlines. human rights watch is released in 2023 report looking at the conditions of human rights and more than a 100 countries. it says unchecked power across the world is leading to abuses and violations. a lot of the focus of this press, sir, that is still ongoing right now, has been on the human rights situation in asia. given that this presser is, are happening still ongoing in this region. and in fact, during the opening statement of asia director, elaine pearson, the 1st name that she mentioned was marcus. of course, the current president of the philippines is fred, in and bonbon marcus junior. and she was, of course, alluding to the election of the current president and alluding to the return to power off the market says the father of the president is ferdinand mark a senior. he was president of the philippines for more than 20 years. the u. s. in japan of announced plans to expand military cooperation,

calling china the greatest security challenge in the region. they've agreed to re adjust the u. s. military presence in okinawa, giving it the capability to target ships. german police are back in the village of lou to raf, where they're continuing to evict climate activists for 2nd day. the protest is don't want the village to be demolished, to make way for a coal mine. thousands of venezuelans have demonstrated in the capital caracas demanded demanding better wages. the group included public health work as teachers and pensioners inflations, making it hard to make ends meet. there. it rose to a 155 percent. last october, hundreds of buildings, a crumbling and sinking in the indian himalayan town of george, she, muff, it's being blamed on nonstop construction in the area and a changing environment. the towns near a number of important religious sites and attracts thousands of pilgrims every year . brazil's capitals, bracing for more demonstrations from supporters of former president john balsam

arrow security forces, are setting up barricades and shutting down main avenues to traffic on sunday protest. a suit stormed the supreme court presidential palace and congress, since their messages had been circulating on social media urging crowds to rally against president lewis anacio lula de silver's election. okay, up to date, those are the headlines. the news continues here. an outage, a 0 after inside story, say with us for that. it's one of the biggest events for african music and creativity. artists from across the continent will gather in finnegan for the 8th edition. you'll be all africa music award. join as full coverage and updates on how does here mercenaries are being used more widely in conflicts despite a un convention binding them rushes. wagner group is involved in intense fighting in ukraine. so why are some states using mercenary forces and who's accountable for

their actions? this is inside story. ah hello and welcome to the program. i'm fully by t boat mercenaries, or soldiers for hire are illegal in many countries with a united nations convention against their use ratified by more than 14 nations, but big military powers, including the united states, russia, china, france, and the united kingdom, and not party to that agreement and some have used them extensively. mercenaries have been more and more active in recent conflicts during the 2003 iraq war. the former black water group supported american soldiers. today the russian wagner group is directly involved in some of the fiercest fighting in east and ukraine. so

we've got a lot to discuss with our guests in just a moment, but 1st natasha butler has more from keith on the wagner group. for the head of the wagner mercenary group yevgeny, pre goshen, a kiss fighters are true patriots, and for them, the involvement in ukraine is really an opportunity to prove this. there's no doubt that wagner certainly been a lot more high profile, a lot more public in recent months. now, wagner mercenaries 1st became involved in ukraine in 2014, fighting to help a pro russian separatists in the east of the country. they are heavily involved in the ongoing battle for buck mode that would be something of a pies. corporate goshen were russian forces held by wagner able to capture and control that town. but it's not only ukraine. the wagner is involved in it has been involved in syria, in libya, in the central african republic. and it is often accused of using brutal tactics no times of war crimes. as natasha mentioned,

or the private wagner group has been active in other wars zones as well. including libya, syria, molly and central african republic. it's been accused of war crimes by the ukrainian government, and the e. u has sanctioned it after accusing it of serious human rights abuses in ukraine . the middle east and africa. the united states also used private contractors in the past. 4 of the former blackwater groups personnel were found guilty of killing iraqis civilians in a mass shooting in baghdad in 2007, but were freed from jail in the us after. pardon by then president donald trump will lead spring in our guests. now for today's show in copenhagen soccer mccloud, a chair of the un working group on the use of mercenaries in oxford, samuel romani, associate fellow at the royal united services institute and author of putting his war on ukraine and in amsterdam. marika to hone assistant professor in

international criminal law at the university of amsterdam, and especially on crimes of aggression. thank you for joining us on inside. sorry, a very warm welcome. samuel. let me sot with you. russia has suffered repeated setbacks on the battlefield in ukraine. recently. but it appears that with the help of mercenaries from the wagner group, it could be about to make some gains. talk to us 1st about the role of wagner in the conflict in ukraine. how expensive is it? and how active are these mess marries? so the larger group is down, the largest contingent that has ever been according to us. estimates is got around 50000 people. $40000.00 of them are convicts and prisoners who promotions lifted out of the prisons in exchange for amnesty a and a salary. and 10000 of them are private military contractors. initially, the wonder group was tasked with really the role of the a savage order disruptor. it was involved, for example, in some of the desk laws that were sent you kill about him, his lensky, and but more recent months is played

a much why to roll in the front lies 1st in the campaign, the husk. and now, especially in the battle for back wooten cylinder, and if russia has one ins order, which ukrainians are disputing is the 1st victory in which the water group was really solely responsible for it. and now the water group will be able to get access to gypsum and salt mines that are very lucrative and could potentially help financed the $100000000.00 a month. that promotion is spending on financing these mercenaries going forward, right? so it's role as well, dramatically and its influences as highest level ever as thinking of financing these mercenaries, a salmonella, russia has consistently denied that. wagner has any connection with this fate. but these private military companies are not allowed in russia, so we know who funds the group and does it effectively function as a branch of the kremlin? well, definitely, private military companies have been banned in russia for a long time. and even if jennifer goshen himself was actually suing the european

union in suing for various journalists for saying that he had anything to do with the water grip. of course, until the water grew, became a much more powerful forest. it was seen as the most effective fighting needed in the russian army. and now he seeking credit as successes, as of september. but financing is coming from a variety of sources is coming from minerals and extract us. so we're seeing oil in libya, the control over the 3 major oil ports are gold. they're trying to get it. molly diamonds is the draw african republic, as well as the contracts with the governments and with the partners that they're working with like leave after and libya or to adherence are so it really comes from those sources and it's effectively self scenic. so it functions as an alternative security, oregon, but russia does not have to likely devote, is defense budget, devising their activities, and can actually make revenue for the russians date. interesting metric, idaho. and it's not just russia and the wagner group. of course, the wide spread outsourcing of military and security functions has become

a major phenomenon in recent years. why are stacy think increasingly contracting out to pipe to, to the private sector and what is the legal status of these private companies under international law? and under the laws of armed conflict. well, state dude is for many different reasons. and one particular reason is that russia is using, this is possible and i ability. so by using the russia saying we are not involved, or this is just a normal contract that we've closed with, for instance, the central african republic, and therefore nothing illegal is going on. an international law struggled international humanitarian law. the laws of armed conflict struggles with how to really determinant, categorize these types of people. because on the one hand you have a category such as that combatants like regular armed forces, for instance. but also mercer base which they're mostly prohibited and then

civilians. but, but these private military contractors, they kind of escape a lot of these categories that were really supposed to be private military companies are often particularly designed to escape these categories of german. sorry, are they legitimate? well, so they fight very often in violation of the lives of love on conflicts with committed war crimes. so that is very much illegal, notwithstanding which category there is, but it show some sort of ability to deny as if russia states is involved. so if they are saying that colon harris and russia saying, oh, they're not part of, it seems almost, it's credible that russia isn't part of it. but how is it possible then that for instance, a walk in a room gets 40000 detainees, release pardons from russian presents to fight. they're obviously very links. yeah . up, focus your thoughts about this. just how dangerous are these mercenaries and they're

going use around the globe, and what are the implications of their presence in conflict zones, whether it's ukraine, central african republic? will the working group, when the use of mercenaries is extremely concerned about the increasing use of mercenaries and marjory type actors in arm conflicts in a variety of different countries around the world. it's not just the wagner group, although that's the one that's been getting a lot of attention. but we've seen the said that group of turkey, for example, being involved in the recruitment and training of, of mercenaries for 4 different armed conflicts. so the, the difficulty with these types of actors is that when they are involved in armed conflicts, the prolong those conflicts, the destabilize peace processes, the destabilized countries and reaches. and they violate human rights on, on

a very white scale. and so this is hugely problematic for, for civilian population. so we've seen ports of mass killings, of torture, of sexual gender based violence, course disappearances, looting and on war crimes. so in just a minute targeting of, of civilian. so they, they bring a level of violence that, that isn't always of course i'm conflict, it's violent, but mercy. pick it a whole new level. and then of course it's difficult to hold them to account for these. it is problematic. you say soccer and yet it would appear that states are increasingly engaging these mercenaries to further. busy their foreign policy objectives that would, that would seem to be the, the case. and we've certainly seen their, their use in, in the conflict in the corner. caraballo, we've seen their use in libya and central african republic in syria. and in

multiple, multiple arms are on conflicts. and this is a new, a new development where we're seeing a shift that, you know, the traditional idea of the, the, the mercenary army or the mercy was historically, you know, the white guys who went from the global north to the global south. they weren't very arch in numbers. and what we're seeing, what we've already heard is that, that would seem significantly larger numbers of them being recruited. and there's another layer of, of, of problem or complexity there, because they're being recruited from other on conflict or conflict affected countries. so for example, we've seen large numbers of, of people being recruited as mercenaries from syria. and sometimes us, because they have had experience as fighters for i s, for example. or it's because they are being coerced into, to becoming mercenaries for economic,

for economic reasons. so we're not just seeing their, their, their impacts on, on going on conflicts where they're being deployed. we're seeing them and having impacts in countries where there are already, or arms on con, aren't conflicts ongoing. and that's hugely problematic. samuel money of why do you think we're seeing that the re emergence of these security got the so called security groups globally, especially after all the bad publicity after the iraq war, where they were accused of war crimes and so on. and, and talk to us also about the objectives of, of the states who hire these mercenaries. what, what is it that they are wanting to achieve by using these are groups? well, the interesting thing was that the fact that black water and some of the controversies there were associated in the iraq war actually received a lot of backlash in the collective non west russian and chinese state media outlets. basically launched at information campaigns and diatribes against blackwater, but then ironically,

they proceeded to see the value of using mercenaries for their own purposes. so mercenaries are used for a variety of functions. the 1st is to carry out in naval operations, especially in the counter insurgency sphere. as what we've seen, russia tried to carry out a borderline mozambique and more successfully in such african republic. and now they're trying to do it in molly. another thing that they're using mercenaries, war is the guardianship of stationary assets, whether it be military bases. i, the russians have mercenaries in been gassy, or they use mercenaries to our garden gold mines. i can see dan, for example, the chinese are also use private security companies to guard at elements of their bolts road initiative. so guardianship. and the 3rd is use the mercenaries for some kind of logistical training and tactical role. i've actually reprising the. busy role of soviet era tactical advisors during the cold war and training local forces, how to use certain types of area to said defense systems, how to use certain types knobs. so those are the main reasons and main uses of mercenaries in global conflicts today, america, as the samuel highlighted,

there is not just state act as we're using these missionaries also non state actors armed grooves. multinational companies that use east so called private security firms. but under what norms do they operate? and, and who is it that monitor has their activities ultimately? well, no one really monitors. there are cavities and that's one of the big problems. and it really depends on what they do, how lawful it is when they engage in hostilities, when they, when they do more than just guard a door guard, an entrance, for instance, or guard a ship when they actually start using force, then they're engaging suddenly in hostilities and if it's an armed conflict, they need to abide by the law of armed conflict. and this is what we see whitely occurring, particularly with walk in a group now, but also previously with black water and so forth. and that they're actually torturing, murdering and so forth. and then what do you do?

because it's historically been really difficult in armed conflicts or with well organized groups to hold them to account. because 1st of all, how get, how do you obtain them. but also, how do you investigate who exactly was responsible exactly for what? and this is now i think new challenge where because we see on such a large scale, these crimes being occurring that it must draw tension of the international criminal court. also to look at the leadership of these groups. yeah. okay. your thoughts about this? how do you hold these groups accountable, then what can you see for one thing? first of all, the working group of use of mercenaries does have a role in monitoring the activities of of mercer, is that that part of our mandate? but i think we also have to be, be very precise here in terms of what we're talking about. because the term mercenary does have an international legal definition, and that is an actor, an individual or not to who has been recruited specifically to participate in

hostilities. and that they do actually put the paint in the, in the hostilities. and they're not a national of the, of a party to the, to the on conflict. and they've not been sense or the facial. so what's the difference between a mercenary and a foreign fighter? oh, well that's, that's, that's the house a different, a different question. but if we, if, if we think about a private security companies or private military security companies or private military companies, none of that, those terms have any legal definition mercer, it does have a specific legal definition. and it's perhaps helpful to think about these actors on a, on a spectrum, right? so, so the, the, the, the m, the laws of are in conflict. don't criminal ice, or mercer is the un convention on mercenaries of doesn't fight criminalized the recruitment. the training, the financing, and the deployment, all of mercenaries, some individual states, do have a criminal laws that prohibits,

prohibit mercer is even if the state is not a party to the, to the, the, the treaty or but we have a, we, a, we have a situation where it's actually very, very difficult, as i said early with is very difficult to hold these actors to account. okay, let me assign her my rica a point about this. you mentioned the example of the central african republic, their soccer. but more recently, marika the wagner grew, for example, was invited by the military government in molly to provide security against armed groups. and it is the arrival of, you know, the, the them wagner. will that influence francis decision to withdraw in 2021, to pull it, stoops out of the country. who then, you know, in, in the case of man, for example, if crimes are committed by members of, of the wagner group who's then is responsible and liable for these abuses? is it the maryan government, which invited the group under international law or, or, i mean, who did, who do you turn to?

yes and yes. all of them. so it is obviously the individuals that are committing crimes, i, it is their command bulls. and most particularly of course at b, goshen like the, the leader of the wagner group. and he might be very interesting also for the international criminal court to actually look at. but it's also, and there's also sanctioned regimes against a lot of members of the wagner group and also corporations that work with them and support them. and then there's also state responsibility. and so there's also possibilities. francis, a litigation going out to the european court of human rights and also at the international court of justice against russia for not just the crimes that they are committing themselves, but also how they are really tied to all sorts of volunteers and little green men that are walking about and there is, the courts don't really look at whether they deny that, but really to factual relationships. so if the court finds that indeed, there are strong ties between russia and these individuals that are committing

crimes and at russia thereby, really is attributable. then the russian state is also held to account. i sammy, i'll remind me your thoughts about this on the issue of accountability. well, i think it should certainly be the individuals who are carrying out the crimes, as well as the governments that are sponsoring and are working with them on those fronts. how be interesting to see whether there are major tribunals that will be held for some of the crimes that have been taking place inside molly and central african republic. in molly, for example, you've seen the utopia fault, but also the water good. a be directly to responsible for action. think the more a massacre which killed almost as many people as boucher back at the same time. the merchant april. same thing as central african republic where we've seen a systematic policy of rape bed. torture and massacre is strictly on the outskirts of bang way and other parts of the country being carried out by the water group off in conjunction with the armed forces. so i think the prosecutions will probably go towards bull, and those 2 cases will be interesting. let moustache frau handle it

a is given yet, but you're talking here about international prosecution, right? ma'am? so i want to ask you about the v i c c here. the role of the i c c. if, let's say, when wagner commits crimes in ukraine, which has, will you know, in territories where the i, c, c has jurisdiction like ukraine, for example. then what is a legal process? and then what about a country like the united states, which, which is not potty to it, to the i c. c. how then do you go about you know, holding, holding the rope accountable? well, i can't, i can't speak on the, the specific situation of ukraine and on the i c c. but what i, what i can say is that we, we've seen countries like central african republic sets up mechanisms to try to, to hold these actors to account for the problem is it is that griffith wagner are becoming integrated into the, the fabric of, of society,

of countries like center and republic, which is making it very, very difficult for the victims and their families to report on, on human rights abuses and on atrocities. they're either they're scared to to do so they're being intimidated. they're being harassed. we've seen attacks against human rights defenders and, and journalists, so the space to, to try and report these types of atrocities is, is shrinking. it makes it, it makes a very, very difficult. so, you know, even at the, at the national level it's, it's hard to get any kind of accountability. the working group issued an allegation letter in relation to the russian government because we received information that russian nationals had been involved in the torture and, and merger of assyrian national in syria. and there was an attempt to try to bring

the claim in the russia course that didn't succeed. there were multiple obstacles and delays, which in, in the way of the, of, of that claim. no one other option would be for countries around the world to exercise universal jurisdiction, or some of them will see you in crimes that are being committed so that we've seen some countries increasingly starting to do that and think that some crimes are so severe they're so heinous that and 5 should be they should be prosecuted. ok outside of the place, it took place. all right, let me ask you, maria, by the options. there are, as soccer said, it's hard to get accountability very often at the national level, the i c. c, very often goes after the big fish, not the foot soldiers, you know, on the field who are committing these crimes. so what, what is then, are the options? what are the options? legal options? yes. so the international criminal court has jurisdiction over

a limited amount of crimes, the worst of worst crimes and war crimes, friends, yes, humanity, genocide, and crime of aggression. what walker is doing is via is war crimes all over the place in ever, in a lot of different countries. but the international criminal court can only exercise jurisdiction when it has jurisdiction. and that is limit to crimes being committed on a territory where the i c c has jurisdiction and has that of ukraine, but also over central african republic. and molly and so there are some types of possibilities here for you international criminal court. it would then indeed look at the big fish those most responsible. so think particularly on, but he goes in and then indeed, as was just discussed. there's also universal jurisdiction. so other states wherever members of walking a group that are being suspected of having committed war crimes occur, they might also be prosecuted in other countries. so all of the walking are people that are identified in being allegedly haven't committed war crimes can therefore

risk danger when they are traveling outside of their safe, harboring states for process. and also importantly, is ukraine itself, ukraine, where a lot of these crimes are being committed is very active in prosecute war crimes. and so what you, craig, also do is to prosecute in a sense. yeah. so they are actually prosecuting people even if they don't have them detained. ok, thank you all very much for a very, very interesting discussion, samuel romani marie, could a home. so come across. thank you so much for joining us on inside story and thank you to for watching. you can always watch this program again any time by visiting our website at al jazeera dot com for further discussion. go to our facebook page at facebook dot com forward slash ha inside story. you can of course, also join the conversation on twitter handle is that a j inside still from me fully back to one whole team. healing doha, thanks for watching bye. from ah.

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