were just battered and heavily damaged by waves heights surf that has come in over the past several days of waves up to 7 meters tall. ah. and you could see that some of the windows and doors are actually boarded up. so a nice place to be when the weather is good, not so bad, not so good. when the storms calm, ah, as they inevitably do, influential rock, guitarist jeff back, has died at the age of 70 a's. ah . those the fame of the 19 sixty's when he replace eric clapton in the group, the are birds. but he moved himself out as an innovator when he went solo. he was praised as a guitarist, guitarist and won a grammy awards back was inducted into the rock and roll hall of fame twice.

ah, this is al jazeera, these are the top stories. human rights watch is released. it's 2023 report looking at the conditions of human rights in more than a 100 countries. it says unchecked power across the world is leading to abuses and violations for robertson is deputy asia director of human rights watch. if we look at what's happening in afghanistan for women and girls, and we look at what's happened, obviously in ukraine with the russian invasion. the situation across the world unfortunately has gotten worse. but. busy we're also saying is, is the responsibility of many other governments. the not that the additional governments have cared about human rights from european e in north america, but governments from latin america, from africa, from middle east, other places to also step up and do something about human rights to recognize that they have an important role in promoting human rights and protecting human rights

and not leave it to others. a palestinian ministry of health says that israeli forces have killed a palestinian man of the occupied west bank. the 41 year old was short in the columbia company of ramallah during a dorm raid. he's the 3rd palestinian to be killed in the occupied west bank in the past 24 hours. for like his former president has been ordered to pay damages for failing to prevent the deadly 2019 easter sunday bomb attack. the supreme court found my 3 policy and susannah had received enough intelligence to act. he now has to pay $270000.00 to victims families. the u. s. in japan of announced plans to expand military cooperation, calling china the greatest security challenge in the region. they've agreed to re adjust the u. s. military presence in ok, now we're giving it the capability to target ships. german police are back in the village of leads harass where they're continuing to evict climate activists for 2nd day. the protest is don't want the village to be demolished, to make way for

a cold line. activists have been camping on the edge of the mind for the past 2 years. hundreds of buildings, a crumbling and sinking in the indian, himalayan town of josh mouth is being blamed on non stop construction in the area and a changing climate occur europe today. those are the headlines. the news continues here, announces era after inside story, make sure you stay with us for that. ah mercenaries are being used more widely in conflicts despite a u. n. convention binding them. russia's wagner group is involved in intense fighting in ukraine. so why are some states using mercenary forces and who's

accountable for their actions? this is inside story. ah hello and welcome to the program. i'm fully by t boat mercenaries or soldiers for hire. are illegal in many countries with a united nations convention against their use ratified by more than 40 nations, but big military powers, including the united states, russia, china, france, and the united kingdom, and not party to that agreement. and some have used them extensively. mercenaries have been more and more active in recent conflicts during the 2003 iraq war. the former black water group supported american soldiers. today, the russian wagner group is directly involved in some of the fiercest fighting and eastern ukraine. so we've got a lot to discuss with our guests in just a moment,

but 1st natasha butler has more from keith. on the wagner group. for the head of the wagner mercenary group yevgeny, pre goshen, a kiss fighters are true patriots. and for them, the involvement in ukraine is really an opportunity to prove this. there's no doubt that wagner certainly being a lot more high profile or more public in recent months. now, wagner mercenaries, 1st became involved in ukraine in 2040 fighting to help a pro russian separatists in the east of the country. they are heavily involved in the ongoing battle for buck mach, that would be something of a pies. corporate goshen were russian forces held by wagner able to capture and control that town. but it's not only ukraine. the wagner is involved in it has been involved in syria in libya, in the central african republic. and it is often accused of using brutal tactics, new times of war crimes. as natasha mentioned,

or the private wagner group has been active in other wars zones as well, including libya, syria, molly and central african republic. it's been accused of war crimes by the ukrainian government, and the e. u has sanctioned it after accusing it of serious human rights abuses in ukraine . the middle east and africa. the united states also used private contractors in the past. 4 of the former black water groups personnel were found guilty of killing iraqi civilians in a mass shooting in baghdad in 2007, but were freed from jail in the us after. pardon by then president donald trump. ah, well let's bring in our guest smile for today's show in copenhagen soccer mccloud, a chair of the un working group on the use of mercenaries in oxford, samuel romani, associate fellow at the royal united services institute and author of putins war on ukraine and in amsterdam. marie could hone assistant professor in international

criminal law at the university of amsterdam, and especially on crimes of aggression. thank you for joining us on inside. sorry, a very warm welcome. samuel. let me sot with you. russia has suffered repeated setbacks on the battlefield in ukraine. recently. but it appears that with the help of mercenaries from the wagner group, it could be about to make some gains. talk to us 1st about the role of wagner in the conflict in ukraine. how expensive is it and how active all these mess marries? so the larger group is down, the largest contingent that has ever been according to us. estimates is got around 50000 people. $40000.00 of them are convicts and prisoners who per goshen is lifted out of the prisons in exchange for amnesty a and a salary. and 10000 of them are private military contractors. initially the wonder group was tasked with really the role of be a savage or in a disruptor. it was involved, for example, in some of the desk laws that were sent. you kill about him, his lensky, and but more recent months is played

a much more active role in the front lies 1st in the campaign, the husk, and now especially in the battle for back wooten cylinder. and if russia has one ins order, which ukrainians are disputing is the 1st victory, it was the water group was really solely responsible for it. and now the water group will be able to get access to gypsum and salt mines that are very lucrative and could potentially help finance the $100000000.00 a month. that promotion and spending on financing these mercenaries going forward. right. so it's role as dramatically and its influences as highest level ever as thinking of financing these mercenaries, a salmonella, russia has consistently denied that. wagner has any connection with this fate, but these private military companies are not allowed in russia. so we know who funds the group and does it effectively function as a branch of the kremlin? well, definitely, private military companies have been banned in russia for a long time. and even if jennifer goshen himself was actually suing the european

union in suing for various journalists for saying that he had anything to do with the water grip. of course, until the water grew, became a much more powerful forest. it was seen as the most effective fighting needed in the russian army. and now he seeking credit as successes, as of september. but financing is coming from a variety of sources. it's coming from minerals and extract us. so we're seeing oil in libya, the control over the 3 major oil ports, golds they're trying to get it. molly diamonds is drawn from republic, as well as contracts with the governments and with their partners that they're working with like leave after and libya or to adherence are so it really comes from those sources and it's effectively self scenic. so it functions as an alternative security, oregon, but russia does not have to likely devote, is defense budget, devising their activities. and you can actually make revenue for the russians date, interesting metric, idaho. and it's not just russia and the wagner group. of course, the widespread outsourcing of military and security functions has become

a major phenomenon in recent years. why are stacy think increasingly contracting out to pipe took to the private sector and what is their legal status of these private companies under international law? and under the laws of armed conflict? well, stay students for many different reasons. and one particular reason is that russia is using this as possible than i ability. so by using the rush i saying we are not involved, or this is just a normal contract that we've been closed with. for instance, the central african republic in there for nothing illegal is going on. and international law struggles, international humanitarian law to laws of armed conflict, struggles with how to really determine and categorize these types of people. because on the one hand you have a category such as that combatants like regular armed forces for instance, but also mirth, reese, which are very mostly prohibited and then civilians but,

but these private military contractors, they kind of escape a lot of these categories that were really i suppose these private military companies are often particularly designed to escape these categories, but of a li, jared's sorry, are they legitimate? well, so they fight very often in violation of the lives there aren't loves of our conflicts or to commit war crime. so that is very much illegal, notwithstanding which category there is, but it shows some sort of like ability to that deny as if russia state is involved . so if they are saying that while in tears and rushes saying, oh, they're not part of us. it seems almost, it's credible that russia isn't part of it, but how is it possible then that for instance, to walk in a group gets $40000.00 detainees, release pardons from russian prisons to fight? they're obviously very lynx. yeah. ah. so can you afford to buy this just how dangerous are these mercenaries and they're growing use around the globe,

and what are the implications of their presence and conflict zones, whether it's ukraine, central african republic, while the working group, when the use of mercenaries is extremely concerned, about the increasing use of mercenaries and mercenary type actors in arm conflicts in a variety of different countries around the world. it's not just the, the wagner group, although that's the one that's been getting a lot of attention. but we've seen this at that group. i'm out of a turkey for example, being involved in the recruitment and training of, of mercenaries for 4 different armed conflicts. though the, the difficulty with these types of actors is that um, when they are involved in armed conflicts, the prolong those conflicts, the destabilize peace processes, the destabilized countries and reaches. and they violate human rights on, on

a very white scale. and so course it, this is hugely problematic for, for a civilian populations. so we've seen warts of mass killings, of torture, of sexual and gender based violence, and force disappearances looting. and i more crime so then discriminant targeting of, of civilians. so they, they bring a level of violence that, that isn't always, of course i'm conflict is, is violent by, but mercer pick it a whole new level. and then of course it's a difficult to hold them to account for these cities. pub, problematic, you say soccer, and yet it up, it would appear that states are increasingly engaging these mercenaries to further . busy that their foreign policy objectives that would, that would seem to be the the case. and we've certainly seen their, their use in the, the conflict in the corner. caraballo. we've seen their use in libya and central

african republic in syria. and in multiple, multiple arms are on conflicts. and this is a new, a new development where we're seeing a shift that you're the traditional idea of the, the, the mercenary army or the mercy was historically, you know, the white guys who went from the global north to the global south. they weren't very arch in numbers. and what we're seeing, what we've already heard is that, that would seem significantly larger numbers of them being recruited. and there's another layer of, of, of problem or complexity there, because they're being recruited from other on conflict or conflict affected countries. so for example, we've seen large numbers of, of people being recruited as mercenaries from syria. and sometimes us, because they have had experience as fighters for i s for example. or it's because they are being coerced and to, to becoming mercenaries for economic, for economic reasons. so we're not just seeing their, their,

their impacts on ongoing, on conflicts where they're being deployed. we're seeing them and having impacts in countries where there are already or arms on con, aren't conflicts, aren't going. and that's hugely problematic. samuel money of why do you think we're seeing that the re emergence of these security got the so called security groups globally, especially after all the bad publicity after the iraq war, where they were accused of war crimes and so on. and, and talk to us also about the objectives of, of the states who hire these mercenaries. what, what is it that they are wanting to achieve by using these groups? well, the interesting thing was that the fact that black water and some of the controversies there were associated in the iraq war actually received a lot of backlash in the collective non west russian and chinese state media outlets. basically launched information campaigns and diatribes against blackwater . but then, ironically,

they proceeded to see the value of using mercenaries for their own purposes. so mercenaries are used for a variety of functions. the 1st is to carry out in diable operations, especially in the counter insurgency sphere. as what we've seen, russia tried to carry out a borderline mozambique and more successfully in such african republic. and now they're trying to do it in molly. another thing that they're using mercenaries, war is the guardianship of stationary assets, whether it be military bases. i, the russians have mercenaries in the gassy, or they use mercenaries to our garden gold mines. i can see dan, for example, the chinese are also use private security companies to guard at elements of their boston road initiative. so guardianship and the 3rd is use the mercenaries for some kind of logistical training and tactical role. i've actually reprising the. busy role of soviet era tactical advisors during the cold war and training local forces, how to use certain types of air to said defense systems, how to use certain types knobs. so those are the main reasons and main uses the mercenaries in global conflicts. today, america, as the samuel highlighted,

there is not just sate act as we're using these missionaries, also non state actors armed goals. multinational companies that use east so called private security firms. but under what norms do they operate and, and who is it that monetize their activities ultimately? well, no one really monitors their activities. and that's one of the big problems. and it really depends on what they do, how lawful it is when they engage in hostilities, when they, when they do more than just guard a door guard and entrance, for instance, or guard a ship. when they actually start using force, then they're engaging suddenly in hostilities. and if it's an armed conflict, they need to abide by the laws of armed conflict. and this is what we see whitely occurring, particularly with walk in a group now. but also previously with black water and so forth, that they're actually torturing, murdering, and so forth. and then what do you do?

because it's historically been really difficult in armed conflicts or with well organized groups to hold them to account. because 1st of all, how get, how do you obtain them. ready but also, how do you investigate who exactly was responsible exactly for what? and this is now i think new challenge where because we see of such a large scale, these crimes being occurring that it must draw attention of the international criminal court. also to look at the leadership of these groups. yeah. ok. your thoughts about this? how do you hold these groups accountable? then what can i say for one thing? first of all, the working group on the use of mercenaries does have a role in monitoring the activities of of mercer, is that that part of our mandate? but i think we also have to be, be very precise here in terms of what we're talking about. because the term mercenary does have an international legal definition, and that is an actor, an individual or an actor who has been recruited specifically to participate in

hostilities. and that they do actually participate in the, in the hostilities. and they're not a national of the, of a party to the, to the conflict and they've not been st on official. so what's the difference between a mercenary and a foreign fighter? oh, well that's, that's, that's perhaps a different, a different question. but if we, if, if we think about a private security companies or private military security companies or private military companies, none of that, those terms have any legal definition. mercenary does have a specific legal definition. and it's perhaps helpful to think about these actors on a, on a spectrum, right? so, so that you, that the, the, the m, the laws of are in conflict. don't criminal ice or mercer is the un convention on mercenaries of doesn't fact criminalize the recruitment, the training, the financing, and the deployment, all of mercenaries, some individual states,

do have a criminal laws that prohibit, prohibit mercer is even if the state is not a party to the to the, the treaty or, but we have a, a, we have a situation where it's actually very, very difficult. as i said early with is very difficult to hold these actors to account. okay. let me ask, i'm, are my rica a point about this. you mentioned the example of the central african republic, their soccer. but more recently, maria, the wagner grew, for example, was invited by the military government in molly to provide security against armed groups. and it is the arrival of, you know, the, the them, wagner. will that influence francis decision to withdraw in 2021, to pull it, stoops out of the country. who then, you know, in, in the case of man, for example, if crimes are committed by members of, of the wagner group who's then is responsible and liable for these abuses? is it the maryan government, which invited the group under international law or, or, i mean, who did, who do you turn to?

yes and yes. all of them. so it is obviously the individual that are committing crimes, right? it is their command. and most particularly of course, a big ocean like the, the leader of the walking or group. and he might be very interesting also free and national criminal court to actually look at. but it's also, and there's also sanction regimes against a lot of members of the washing group and also corporations that work with them and support them. and then there's also state responsibility. and so there's also possibilities for instance, litigation going out to europe, court of human rights, and also at the international court of justice against russia for not just the crimes that they are committing themselves, but also how they are really tied to all sorts of volunteers. and little green men that walking about and there is the court don't really look at whether they denied that the really the factual relationship. so if the court find that in the, there are strong ties between russia and these individuals that are committing

crime. and why should thereby, really is attributable then the russian state is also held to account. all right, samuel, remind me your thoughts about this on the issue of accountability? well, i think it should certainly be the individuals who are carrying out the crimes, as well as the governments that are sponsoring and are working with them on those fronts. i'll be interesting to see whether there are major tribunals that will be held for some of the crimes that have been taking place inside molly and central african republic. in molly, for example, you've seen the youth to be at fault, but also the water good. a be directly responsible for actually i think the more a massacre was killed almost as many people as boucher back at the same time. the merchant april. same thing in central african republic where we've seen a systematic policy of rape bed. torture and massacre is strictly on the outskirts of bang way and other parts of the country being carried out by the water group off in conjunction with the armed forces. so i think the prosecution will probably go towards bull, and those 2 cases will be interesting litmus as val. accountability is given. yeah

. but you're talking here about international prosecution, right? ma'am? so i want to ask you about d v. i see, see here the role of the i c c. if let's say, when wagner commits crimes in ukraine, which has, will you know, in territories where the i, c, c has jurisdiction like ukraine, for example. then what is a legal process? and then what about as a country like the united states, which, which is not potty to, to the i c. c. how then do you go about you know, holding, holding the rope accountable? well, i can't, i can't speak on the, the, the specific current situation of ukraine in the i, c, c. but what i, what i can say is that we, we've seen countries like central african republic set up mechanisms to try to, to hold these actors to account for the problem is it, is that a group like wagner are becoming integrated into the, the fabric of,

of of society, of countries like central african republic, which is making it very, very difficult for the victims and their families to report on, on human rights abuses and, and atrocities. and they're either the, they're scared to to do. so they're being intimidated. they're being harassed with sin attacks against human race offenders and, and journalists. so the, the space to, to try and report these types of atrocities is, is shrinking. it makes it, it makes a very, very difficult. um, so you know, even at the international level it's, it's hard to get any kind of accountability and the working group and issues and allegation letter in relation to the, the russian government. because we received information that russian nationals had been involved in the torture and murder of assyrian national in syria. and there was an attempt to try to bring the,

the claim in the russian courts that didn't succeed. there were multiple obstacles and delays hooton's in, in the way of, of that claim. now, one other option would be for a countries around the world to exercise universal jurisdiction for some of the most serious crimes that are being committed. so that we're, we've seen some countries increasingly starting to do that and saying that some crimes are so severe, they're so heinous. that in fact should be and they should be prosecuted. ok. outside of the, the place we took place. all right, let me ask him, care by the options there. as a soccer said, it's hard to get accountability very often at the national level. the i c. c very often goes after the big fish, not the foot soldiers, you know, on the field who are committing these crimes. so what, what is then the, the options, what are the options? legal options. yes. so the international criminal court has jurisdiction over a limited amount of crimes, the worst of worst crimes and war crimes, friends, yes,

humanity, genocide, and crime of aggression. what walker is doing is by is, is war crimes all over the place in ever, in a lot of different countries. but the international criminal court can only exercise jurisdiction when it has jurisdiction. and that is limit to crimes being committed on a territory where the i see has jurisdiction and has that of ukraine, but also over central african republic. and molly and so there are some tight, some possibilities here for you international criminal court. it would then indeed look at the big fish those most responsible. so think particularly on pre goshen and then indeed as was just discussed, there's also universal jurisdiction. so other states wherever members of walking a group that are being suspected of having committed war crimes occur, they might also be prosecuted in other countries. so all of the walking are people that are identified in being allegedly haven't committed war crimes can therefore

risk danger when they are traveling outside of their safe, harboring states for process. and also importantly, is ukraine itself, ukraine, where a lot of these crimes are being committed, is very active in prosecute the war crimes. and so what you correct, no, so do is to prosecute in absentia. so they are prosecuting people, even if they don't have them detained. okay, thank you all very much for a very, very interesting discussion, samuel romani marie, could a home so come across. thank you so much for joining us on inside story and thank you to for watching. you can always watch this program again any time by visiting our website at al jazeera dot com for further discussion. go to our facebook page at facebook dot com forward slash ha, inside story. you can of course, also join the conversation on twitter handle. is that a j inside stone for me, for you back to one whole team here in doha, thanks for watching bye from ah

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