made the electric guitar lead instrument to guitar is to send to say in the way that it's been beforehand and expanded the sonic possibilities of the electric guitar made it sound like it made it, made it a sight of experimentation. what was distinctive about jeff back was that he was always trying something else, something new. and well, the 1st of those huge, now we see declared himself dissatisfied with. but it's interesting that in his later career, he still returns to the jazz world. and he brought through sort of rising young jobs start like tom wilkin fell through his band, played jazz venues like roni scott. so he was forever sort of wandering around the musical landscape. and he was quite a, he was quite a fracture character in some respects. ah, and so he, you know, he would, if he was dissatisfied with something in the moment he would say that,

but i'm not sure about the reflection that he would reject that music. ah, this is 0. these are the top stories, the owner of the russian mercenary wagner will be a guinea propulsion as visited his forces and ukrainian frontline time of solar di . but the kremlin is warning against declaring what it's called a premature victory. ukraine says its troops a holding on this she will fly, she is face in the solid, our direction need back morse. despite the difficult situation, ukrainian soldiers a desperately fighting rusher is trying to break through our defense lines without any luck to capture. so the dar and the enemy has high losses. the area are outside, the city is covered with the bodies of persians troops. the russians are moving over their own corpses. german police are back in the village of lloyd's through

earth where they're continuing to evict climate activists for a 2nd day. the protestors don't want the village to be demolished to make way for the expansion of a coal mine. u. s. media, my reporting aids to president joe biden have found more classified documents at a private location. the department of justice is reviewing a number of other classified papers found at president biden's former office. the egyptian pound is continuing his slide against the us dollar after plunging to a new record low on wednesday, a year ago. it was worth around $15.00 to $1.00. now it's down to $30.00 to $1.00. egypt agreed. a $3000000000.00 rescue load from the international monetary fund 2 months ago shall anchors, former president has been ordered to pay damages for failing to prevent the 2019 easter sunday bomb attack. the supreme court found muster paula city center and received enough intelligence to act in the snow pay $270000.00 to victim's families

. the palestinian health minister he says, is really forces have killed a palestinian man in the occupied west bank. 41 year old samir iceland was shot in the columbia county near ramallah. during an early morning raid asked lance, the 3rd palestinian to be killed in the occupied west bank. in the past 24 hours was the headlines. the youth continues here on al jazeera. after the stream, good bye. the american people spoke. but what exactly did they say is the one looking for a new order with was america in it? is the wolf agenda on the decline in america? how much the social media companies know about you have how easy is it to manipulate the quizzical look with us politics? the bottom line i am for me. okay, thanks for joining me on the stream to day. we are looking at plastic pollution and

what is being done about it. so even if you make a conscious effort not to buy plastic products, you can't escape them because we have plastics inside of us. i will tell you how much in the next half an hour. but 1st, let's find out how we got to this situation. i'm going to take you back to the 1950s. since 19 fifties, people find a way war than 6 point. 3000000000 tons of plastic. that's according to a stunt study that was done in 2017 globally every year. people throw away about 400000000 tons of plastic lace every single year. according to the o, e. c, d, plastic waste is on track to almost triple by 2060 with about half ending up in landfills. what do we do about that? i know you've got suggestions. i know you've got solutions. be part of today show the comment section is right here. and looking forward to your campus.

ah. hello, erica. hello, steve. hello, sutter, you fi is so good to have you. how much plastic is too much plastic for our planet? we are going to get into that and then some, but 1st of all, erica, please say hello to our viewers around the world. tell them who you are and what you do. well, 1st of all, thanks for having me for me. my name's erica serino. i'm journalist and author of the book, thicker than water, the quest for solutions to the plastic crisis. and based in the united states, nice to have new hello steve, welcome to the stream. tell our viewers, he you are what you day. i mean, hello everybody. my name is steve fletcher. i'm with director of the global plastics policy center university, portsmouth on the south coast of england. we undertake evidence base analysis of plastics, policies. i'm also a member of the international resource panel. i'm an editor in chief of a new publication called cambridge prison plastics that are shows

research, right? the tries to solve the global process from. i great you can say, how does that refer? nice to have the welcome to the stream. tell our viewers. he you are and what you day hope, emmy. hello, everybody, i'm so you were by xico. i work with the break, the plastic movement, a global movement that envision of lasting the future. ah, we basically work to bring systemic change through a holistic approach. likely plastic lucian, across the entire plastics valley chain. and we focus on prevention rather than your and providing effective solutions. all right. speed route for all of the guest . erica micro plastics. in a sentence. explain. plastics. never benignly bowed. agreed or break down. they only break up into smaller and smaller pieces of toxic plastic. that's how i would explain micro plastic. steve nano plastics in a sentence go even smaller than micro plastics and they can get into places that

even micro plastics call and get mainly into our bodies into our bloodstreams into breastmilk. that's yikes. okay, so how much plastic do you think we have in our body? oh gosh, that this isn't super sticky question. research, this area is pretty new. i mean it's really hard to say for me such a super at bio plastics in a sentence. tell us it basically a plastic that is made partially from materials like but ito starch upon starch. but eventually functions just like plastic, it has just as many chemicals and is extremely toxic. ah, okay. i spoiler alert right there. what is known about plastics? water, we know, or what do we not know that we should know? i'm going to go to some of your colleagues, steve, at the university of portsmouth,

who cooked a lovely christmas dinner. and one christmas dinner they made with products that were all wrapped up in plastic. and another christmas dinner they made with products that were not wrapped up in plastic. let's see how that experiment went. so we looked at a plastic wrapped dinner on a non plastic wrap dinner and we cooked them to see how many micro plastics were in them. and we found 7 times more micro plastics in the wrapped dinner than the non wrapped dinner. if you were eaten an equivalent wrapped dinner every day for a year, you'd be eating about 10 grams of plastic. that's the equivalent of 2 of these a year. thing, i don't know whether i should be alarmed about that. it's just the i didn't. i'm not thinking about the plastics in my body, but i'm alive. i'm doing the show. i'm walking and talking around. is this a red flag that we should be doing something about stevie start and then i'm going

to go round at round the 2 other guests as well. yes, it is a total red flag semi. i mean, the reality is we don't know what harm plastic inside our body is doing not definitively mean an element of common sense suggest it's not good. and so you might wanna take a precautionary approach, where we say, well, until we know that this is harmless, we should stop, or at least we should reduce our exposure to a passage in our homes and in our food. that would be a cautionary sets. we're going to do slightly distracted there by a plastic bag been put into an oven. i'm going to go only go to erica, erica, you traveled the world looking at what do we know? what should we know about nano plastics? a micro plastics and what the dangers are, what would you say was the biggest, what there is going on moment that you had while definitely crossing the grey pacific garbage patch was

a big wake up call. and this was in 2016 when the global consciousness about plastic was really focus more on the problem framed as a marine litter issue or kind of pollution in the ocean, which now we know as far from the only place are plastic fluids, plastic fluids everywhere, including inside of our bodies, but in that reporting and research, i realize that these little particles in the ocean were breaking up into pieces and being consumed by the wild life living there. an almost unimaginable scale. and a main problem with this is that these pieces of plastic contain toxic chemicals in these chemicals are already known to interfere with human hormones. animal hormones, they may cause accumulation of toxins, body that lead to ill effects over time. so this research is better known in wildlife, but because humans are also animals, we should be very concerned at this point. knowing what we know now about the ill effects which are very deadly in many cases that refer to multiple conversations going on about. now what we do refresh, and there is a huge industry,

huge manufacturing, industry, fashion, industry tactics, industry that you can have to have conversations with you in those conversations. how are they going? i think plus all we need to remember that plastics is basically fossil fuel and chemicals. there's more than $10000.00 chemicals in plastic. and we actually know the effects that these chemicals have on human and animal life. um, you know, it's, it's interesting to see that it's, those industries that are continuing to promote the production, you know, even extraction of fossil fuels, production of the polymers that go into making plastics. and then continue to promote, you know, what we call fault solutions in how we manage plastic waste. these are, these can range from incinerators and waste energy plans to just cement kilns and

what you're finding across the world. in issue, if you've been running studies, even chickens that, you know, just are feeding off ones are in the, in the very near vicinity of pacific man here to have dioxin of beings that are living very close to the same income. right? so this is a very, very direct transfer of the chemicals from plastics right into our bodies. and there is actually a lot we can do. we really need to have basic and progressive and mandatory, kept on production of fossil fuel be plastics. we need to control. i think the whole solution for unicorns we keep treating our deals with how plus it can be managed. it really cannot be managed. i think what erica talked about was just the, the, you know, the soap of lisa, it's in our bodies. we cannot avoid the kinds of killed to be where the water we

drink in salt. if an honey it's in bill, it's an everything written just things consciously. but also we just, you know, if into, if it's in before the companies are very consciously making the choice to ads plus the micro plastic micro b into products every they products that be really just kind of void. that thing like very clean. yeah. think i had i had a have so i'm sure you'll feel is much smaller than mine and you go fast. go ahead . oh, no. yeah. just cuz i'd really such recruit was saying really, historically the, the, the solutions to plastic question have been seen as what was called downstream. so the plastic has already been crated and scapes into the world. and we think pro solutions like recycling or, or collecting plastic and putting into landfill is plastic management. but that doesn't really prevent the pollution and the sorts of dire consequences that

century was just explaining. and i'm sure we've all got got stories like that so that there's a sort of list of terrible problems. but what we really need to be doing is, is putting in place upstream solutions as problems solution, sorry, prevent the plastic question. the 1st place, not the try. and so the question just become pollution is too late by the way to talking throughout this flight where michael and your foot comes together. we are we talking about the nest products of beads in little bits of plastic in and they explode 8 your skin or they help clean better. so we just say, let's just not put them and create them in the 1st place. that would be simple when that yeah, you think so? yeah. so a global agreement to remove those sorts of plastics from products would be would be wonderful. and we don't need those plastics to be in those products. really, there will be natural alternatives or just other ways of achieving the same outcome . so we have to really find ways to prevent plastic entering the,

the economy are entering the food chain or entering whatever way we kind of stopping them getting into the products. the 1st place would, would be, you know, the august 1st that there's a global plastics treaty which feels like this would be a good place for the world to come together and say, this is how we want our well to be. we do not need this much plastic. erica, just before i play a little clip from a gathering the happening oral g y, which was a just a few weeks ago at the end of the year. what does the public need to know about the global plastics treaty? what is important about that, what's in point about this treaty is that we need to make sure it's strong, enforceable, and covers the full toxic existence of plastic. from the moment its fossil fuel ingredients are pulled from the ground to its end use. and after its and use when it's either disposed by incineration illegal dumping into

a landfill or the environment or some other means. and as a director and steve mentioned, there are a lot of fall solutions now on the table. and one key for solution i want to identify is so called advanced or chemical recycling, which is just a process whereby plastics are kind of melted down in a way in to more simple petrochemical and fossil fuel components. and typically not even turned into plastic again. so not recycled but burned as a petrochemical or a fossil fuel type product. and so we need to keep those 4 solutions out of the global plastics treaty and have a hard hitting piece of a heart hitting agreement that kind of will show us all the way we need to move forward and at the core have values that lead to more regenerative sustainable and just world i said that this is a very tough negotiation because it's real policy and, and asking for certain plastics and certain production methods to be just the

bat, just banda. so this is in get anderson, she's the executive director of the united nations environment program. and she was at the global plastics treaty this gathering. he sitting next to the minister environment for orac. why? and this is what she told. a press conferences have a listen and it is ambitious to en, classic pollution, but it is entirely doable. it is in our hands. and i am very optimistic that we can work on the race of science on the basis of strong national leadership to deliver an agreement text by the end of 2 years. it's complicated. we have chemicals, we have industry, we have interest rates for everyone. everyone wants plastic out of the environment, such as if i was in or g y, and i was watching the conversations between

a multi stake holders. excuse me. thank you and speak us for a moment. is everybody can have a say in what is going on. and there were people there from the industry, the past is industry and um, some of the other stakeholders were very upset that they were in the room, having the conversation. do they not provide a route to finding a solution if they come with a genuine sense of how can we do better or do we not need to have a plastics industry? are we asking for them to wrap themselves up? you know, so for me of it. oh boy. as well. oh oh, oh such a report. i'm so sorry. i'm gonna, we're going to call you back cuz we've got a little bit of a problem with your connection. so we're gonna call you back and, and i'll just hold that response for

a moment. but let me just go to eric her on this because i know you've been reporting on this as well. about what do you do with the big plastics industry? are they, are they genuinely wanting to say, how do we, how do we improve the situation or is it a little bit like tobacco, the sequel? all, unfortunately, we're seeing a kind of repeat of tobacco the sequel. and in fact, people involved in the tobacco negotiations warned people involved now in the plastics negotiations. and that the industry is trying the same tactics and we do see the same repetitiveness in the narrative as well. so, you know, putting that together, it's painting a very clear picture that the foxes in house i know audience if we think in steve, what about we cycling? what about bio plastics? i lost that i looked at to revisit bio plastics. 8 i work. they did. they just create a problem to like, no, but that's not gonna work. but what, what will work?

what are you working on? what are you researching that can be practical solutions? yeah, it's a great question for me. what with researching at the moment is really trying to understand where in the plastics life cycle which radical and progressive policy really make a difference to reducing plastic police really achieve substantial reductions and plastic pollution on what we're finding is a little bit, like i said before, it's really focusing on upstream solutions. so essentially 2 things. one is to reduce plastic entering the economy in the 1st place. so that substituting property out, it's reducing all reliance on prostate. it's encouraging reuse schemes that prevents the reduce, sorry, the amount of prostate that we need in the 1st place. so that's the 1st thing, reducing plastic entering the economy. and the 2nd thing is i want plastic isn't the economy. then we make sure the classic is the sort of price that we really need,

and that that plastic can be reused and circulated in the economy for as long as possible. so we begin to the couple of economic and social activity from a reliance upon virgin plastics is virgin plastics create tremendous fossil fuels and also competition. so threatens covered emissions and that ultimately tend to become the plastic pollution at the future. i'm going to go to youtube and bring that rooper back in. we've got a stable connection now. cow maston says, i guess my main point is how to governments even confront these large multinational companies like next lay pepsico, coca cola as a companies that repossess you are going to have to as an activist, as somebody who's talking to these, these big, these big plastic polluters how others can do the plastic. yeah.

oh, well mixed up you know, it's usually one step forward and many steps back. the, the breakthrough from plastic movement has been conducting brand audits for 5 years . and we know who the pollutants are. we know what some of their tactics are to distract and the real progress on policy. we have evidence where they are actually very, you know, systematically undermining very progressive policies. just one case for that i'd like to refer to india had a clause in the solid base management group of 2016. with said that multi layered plastics would be banned or eliminated by 2018. we actually know companies, uletha nestle and the others who have lobbied for that close to be removed. right? so we're actually moving backward despite knowing that she is and monthly a packaging is basically, you know, there's nothing that one can do about it. at the same time,

what be having is going to leave a had launched something called korea solve air convention, advanced recycling or chemical recycling the launcher, with a lot of fanfare. and then they closed within 2 years after millions of dollars a lot. right. so you see a what, how is that also how many millions several millions, i'm sorry, i just don't have it at hand but you know, i belong to them in the media. they try to convince a lot of governments that, that is feasible. it is not. the other thing that you know, steve was talking about was we use projects, build launch projects, but they only pilots. they never gale, they don't allow them to scale up. all right, so, so a quick answer hand and the lyla arkwin, you see this one here from the chip. what about a past tax? plastics tax? no, that's difficult, but we can implement producer responsibility schemes that require corporations to

take back the plastics that they produce or be find it help financially or are logistically responsible. but i don't think it would be ever fair to tax people because they're not creating the pollution in the industry. for me, in our research, we found that a positive touch by itself doesn't necessarily create the change you want to see, but the closet touch can reinforce. busy of policies. so for example, if we wanted to substitute our classic for less looting material, then we could put a tax on virgin plastics that would make the substitute more economically attractive to a certain industry. so a touch by itself doesn't really do the job, but a touch with a collection or suite of other policies actually. right. but we talked earlier to data. michelle barry, i'm just going to bring her voice in because i think she sums up where we are with our conversation right now today. he says, well, we can only recycle our way out of the global plastic problem. we need economic

practices that reimagine supply chains to decrease single use plastics. and we need to financially incentivize plastic collection and recycling. we need technologic innovation to do a better cleanup of michael plastic pollution so that we're not consuming the equivalent of a plastic credit card in one weeks time. a real quick response from our audience here watching right now you cannot build a cell phone with the last you have to have plastic instant response to that view. we can think about how long that is used or do we really need to use it. so, you know, so frequently replaced things so frequently i think what steve was also saying, i think was also once it's in the system, how do we make sure that it is in the system as long as possible? right. if we really need some kinds of plastic,

then less privatized those. if it's for medical reasons, for example, why do we need, you know, single use disposable cutlery, which we can really do with that. yeah. and there are great alternatives to save. you going to say something? yeah, i think it's hard to justify, i think for the brigand plastics and the economy that we know can be reuse that can't be recycle recovery effectively collected. but a toxic and good home people's health. how is that an acceptable opposition for the world to adopt? and so we have to really think really carefully about what is a necessary plastic and then maybe some necessary post. and so we have to upgrade. what is a plastic that we use, right? so if we've got a phone that said number whatever, why do you have the my, the next let, this is mike, this is my bombay. why have to by the next level of fine? only because the manufacturer tell ye half day, not because he natalie meeting. i this is my voice will not be the last weiss,

the last coming on the shaft got one more pass him to bring in. and it is. and he's looking ahead to what is going to happen in the world of plastic pollutions patient this year. this is what he told us. what we're seeing now, plastics is not that my issue is an issue of our supply driving use. i know plastic production will continue to rise and currently equals 400000000 tons. that is the weight of $40000.00 i for towers per year on the legal front expect to see more actions against polluters on the grounds, often, bro, mental justice and human rights. like the case of fight, the squeak against the fruits company, the non in france, ford there continues failing to reduce their plastic footprint. by the end of the year, i'm cautiously optimistic that we will see a draft of the international treaty setting out measures to air

cup unfazed down production consumption and use of plastics. and this is the current story that address was talking about activists. c frank food film firm, the known as the use of plastics. maybe this is the future, may be the legal stick is what we need to have fewer lacks of plastic in our environment. thank you to erica to steve, the satcher, rupa, and to you for being part of today's program. we shall see next time ah

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