70 percent, se microns proposal is unfair. the government's as the extra income from pension contributions will help it reduce the budget deficit from 5 percent to below the e. you limit of 3 percent by 2027. but right organisations of pointed to the gap in life expectancy between the poor and the rich. the more you work, the less you will have time to enjoy your pension and actually for the course. sometimes you will not even be able to enjoy your time after after retiring, because you will be already dead since that's one that the 2nd problem is a problem of employment. and we've more people thing longer in job, that means fewer jobs for the youth. the french, on average, retire at just over 62 years old. most of their european neighbors work an additional 2 or 3 years. unions say the reforms are an assault on the welfare system. they've joint forces to lead strikes, involving transport services,

schools, hospitals, and refiners. what perhaps matters more to the government because it doesn't have a majority in parliament, is what the conservative late republicans do. and they've so far indicated there's a lot they like about these reforms. bernard smith, al jazeera paris. ah, this is al jazeera, these are our top stories. at least 14 people, including ukraine's interior minister and his deputy have been killed and a helicopter crash, new cranes capital keys. earlier russia's foreign minister, his house at the u. s. and d, u for its involvement in ukraine saying what's happened as a result of a high bred war sailor for us as the crisis began way before the break at the outbreak of the war. last february, us officials have arrested the russian founder of virtual currency exchange bits lotto in miami, washington the dental 5,

the exchange as being allegedly linked to money laundering. today's law enforcement actions put all of those who sees exploit the personal currency ecosystem. on notice that the department of justice will use every tool working along with our partners. every school that we have to attack the criminal use of the dark and crypto currency. and we're taking steps to address the crisis of confidence in the crypto market. so molly, president hath, on shake mahmoud hers announced the 2nd phase of an operation against down show. bob, the country is allies tech here on the us will be backing me offensive to we take areas under the fight in control. and he was, experts from the french manufacturer of an aircraft crashed in the pool, has arrived at the site. authorities have completed autopsies of the 22 bodies that have been identified,

but relatives of the remaining victims. a still waiting at the philippine call to the quit inova laura john this maria retro on tax evasion charges. why it's group say the case. it's part of a crackdown or media freedom that began on the former president or draco. as i headlines more news off the inside story ah what's fueling public anger in peru, mass protest calling for a change have taken place for 5 weeks since the former president wasn't pieced and arrested. peru is no stranger to political crises. so how is this one different, and what will it take to fix it?

this isn't fight story. ah hello and welcome to the program. i'm telling you. navigate on tens of thousands of people are expected to descend on. peruse capital lima for 2 days of anti government protests. ah, they want president dina bow arthur to resign an early elections to be held. many or supporters of her predecessor pedro castillo, and have a similar background to their former leader. there indigenous to poor and come from rural, peruse, mountainous regions. they say president barth, a dozen to represent them. she was appointed when castillo was removed from office an early december and arrested on charges of rebellion and conspiracy. from the 5 weeks of demonstrations, more than 40 people had been killed in confrontations with security forces. he gets

home on the target of america. we often chill to incom, monica, we've come to lima to defend our country, considering we owned a dictatorial government, a militarist government, which has stained our country with black america. i mean, not young, i'm young. my, i was rage. my only rage is because dina bul artega is to blame. dina, please resign. so the people come down. if you don't resign, the people won't surrender around there. let the whole of peru rise up, let the 25 provinces, right? so let's say 10 percent of the population come here to lima because the government is illegitimate. or president barth. i says she's willing to talk to the demonstrators, but that they must gather peacefully. not give us was the vehicle. this issue of demanding early elections is only an excuse to keep taking of highways and blocking roads. please, we want to work in pace. people in southern pearl,

desperate to have their hallways cleared. they want to work to reactivate their economies. ah, join him, you now are a guest in lima as one cloud you election, who is a political analyst writer and playwright. his father, one let general crenza was the former vice president of peru and new york, as michael shifter was a senior fellow at the inter american log and a member of the council on foreign relations. joining us from london is alonzo. gra mandy, a lecturer in international relations at oxford university and author of a book on humanitarian law and peruse post conflict reconciliation process. welcome to you all. thanks so much for your time with us on the inside story. one cloud, you over and lea, my just give us an assessment of these protests taking place right now. which of the protests have made their way to the capital lima? what have you been seeing and what's your assessment of at all? well yes, approximately 1000 or more than 1000 people are coming to lima in this moment,

from different parts of the provinces in buses, renting buses, and they want to take the marble out of the down. they want her to resign, its a political demand and all demands her party because they want a new constitution. they won't be wanted to resign. they want elections in closer a, in these 2023. so the complete asian is a political situation. it's not a social situation as he's presented by some media. it, for me, it looks very much like the thing because i'm bolivian i lived in the room for more than 2 years and also love. but i see the same situation that happened in believe in 2020. when griffin on years was taken out from government and she

was made to resign, also with no fancy of, of this title with this kind of look of social movement. when in fact was a political movement over thrower. so in general, i think more this of being a political offensive to take blue out of the down rather than a social demand from the people. ok, just one for you. one more for you on cloud you do you think that the process are getting big enough to actually force the change that people are looking for you say to protest or are demanding that by the way to resign and they're also demanding early elections? well, it's very difficult to say if she have got to stay, she can stay because she has the army and the police and she has the backup of thought, i would say more than approximately of 80 percent of the population. the difference

is that this 80 percent of the population is not more be life is not in this treat . whereas the other part, the, the radical part is being mobilized with these, all this offensively, with buses and people coming from everywhere with a very aggressive and violent recently actions. so it's very difficult to say if she is going to resign given the lima taking lima offensive today and tomorrow. ok, let's bring in michael sister from new york. do you think that this is a dangerous moment for peru going forward, or does it represent an opportunity for real change? i it strikes me as a very, very dangerous ominous situation in peru. i could get completely out of control. ah

clearly, ah, what started as a set of protests in the south are following the of the impeachment of bitter casteel after he attempted a self qu on december 7th. ah, has spread. i think that the response of the government has made matters worse, has angered people even more as crated were resentment and on and as warped into something larger. ah, and i think really reflects a lot of the pent up her anger and resentment that people in the south have had that had that they really haven't. ah, enjoyed the fruits of a, of a country that really let's remember, has had very odd high growth rates for many years. and yet there's been a really an abysmal and lack of social investment and commitment to the social agenda. so it's become something odd, much broader and i think their government hasn't reacted very well. and the

congress certainly it wants to cling to their positions and are also on our not, or do not want to be flexible in terms of earlier earlier elections, which is one of the principal demands of the protesters. so i think this is a, this is a very dangerous moment that i think needs to be out and, you know, addressed, and hopefully things will calm down. i don't really see the opportunity. ah right now to do something dramatic in a positive way. i think for boy, are they a could try to change the cabinet and at that might help but, and she's very, very unpopular. ah, she's constitutional president followed all the procedures. but she's very unpopular. she's tied to the congress. she's tied to a military that has committed a lot of abuses and lot of innocent people have been killed, which is, which is just unacceptable. yeah, and speaking of the response by the government, michael bolo, r t a,

a has cracked down harshly. at least 47 protectors have been killed so far. why do you think there has been such a heavy handed response? i think this is, this is, you know, this is peru. i lived in peru for 4 years during the years of shining past in the late eighty's early ninety's ninety's. ah, and unfortunately of, you know, on the, the security forces have a record of human rights abuses. that's why there's a strong human rights movement improved. and there's also just a vis, mistreatment of the indigenous people of poor people in the south. now a lot of these people also bear huge responsibility. policemen have been to policeman that it was burned alive. there have been violence. ah, that is also unacceptable. and so there is security forces. i have a responsibility to restore public order to protect innocent citizens from violence . but there's no justification for the abuses that have been

a poor reported that people that have been killed ah, that were protesting peacefully or were just happened to be in that area. and i found acceptable or alonzo over in london. my guest from a lima one claudio a moment ago was saying that this is a pretty much a political offensive, what's taking place in poorer right now. do you agree with that assessment and just give me your initial thoughts about the situation? yes, thank you. i don't think i agree because so the political situation improve has several layers. and we can discuss the surface level analysis of specifically to use who the reaction to it and the specific the specificity of the current moment. but he peel off the layers. if you look a little bit more further down into the social order of things,

the social contract, the history of the country, then this can't just be about one specific moment in 2023 or 2022. there is no longer history of exclusion of people from indigenous ascent and indigenous people in crew. i've been left out of this, you know, economic growth, economic miracle that michael was talking about. where even if, you know g d p is growing and the macroeconomics numbers are doing well people every day people are basically let alone. if they cannot 5 a kaiser basic needs there's, there's no good health care. there's no public housing. there's educate public education is not work well funded and it's not doing well for people. so the population feels that there is a double standard or double system. and all of these protests boil down to this difference between the part of crew that is able to take advantage of the quote

unquote economic miracle. and the part of that isn't that is still left behind by a system that privileges that which is in lima is western looking. and, you know, in connected to international capitalism. whereas in the, in the highlands, in the end, is in the south in the area that are most angry with the government and the status quo or not. they are not able to take advantage of these, you know, benefits. let me this to you along because some people say that this crisis has been enhanced by 30 years of neo liberalism. and in fact, the constitution that was put in place back in 1993 by 4. he maury really implemented the neo liberal economic model, which has just benefited the rich and the businessmen at the expense of some people in peru. is that an accurate assessment? do you see it that way? so look, i don't think we have

a particularly extremist constitution. i don't think the constitutional text is necessarily the only problem. it has several problems, but there is no ways to work around constitutional tests in the proven constitution . and it's not like the for example, the trillion constitution that was very much chicago boy libertarianism. the proven has fulls in there to produce the kind of systems that wouldn't be able to help people. in fact, they already have, has been reduced. the problem is that this emerging middle class is very precarious right now, and it's very easy for them to go back into poverty. so what we need is to make changes in the constitution so that the provision of the frontier, safety net of health care of education of safety are actually actually existing

practice. and they don't, because of the mentality in the country, the privileges in these. what describers, washington consensus dynamics in a text that doesn't necessarily mandate we could have a different system that is more inclusive, but we can because of the structures in place. so what we need actually is a conversation as a nation, a national debate, where we accept and particularly lima westernized parts of lima. it goes to some contrition. noticing that the school hasn't worked for everyone. ok, let's bring in one claudio, because i know that you want to comments on what my guest from london has been saying and also how comparable i know you compare the situation in peru to bolivia, a little earlier on. but how comparable would it be? for example, to a country like chalet where 3 years ago we saw protest taking place and that then eventually led to

a constitutional reform pro sets will peru head in that direction. at any point you're probably, it's supposed to be yes. and still, the chilean situation was also a political twitch. so the, the testers, it demanded a new constitution that brought a new government, a government from the left. so it's not that the constitution will change that people will or we violate inequality. what also describes him he's intervention is a 3rd world situation. it's good for bolivia, for per rule privileges. the thing is that always we speak about privileges when we refer to the west to the democrats with once we go to the north

western countries. so as to say, cuba, nobody talks about the privileges in cuba, nobody talks about the gap between the people in power and the people in the normal people, poverty. so i think there is a general speech to condemn these countries like peru that has done in a very intense job for the last 30 years to diminish poverty. and he has succeeded and who has succeeded when it doesn't have succeeded in a swedish standard. but it has the minish extreme poverty very much. and of course, the last 10 years were governments of the left that were away from intronas real attitudes, the last 10 years where governments that were more state oriented than

market oriented. and then you have the conclusion that the last 10 years poverty has increased. so it's a now the blue out of there was a former left piece companion with castillo, now that castillo was taken out of power. she's a tact, i said power left woman, but she was like one month ago from the left, so they want to capture the power again. i don't think that this long terms, the thesis of a 3rd world country like poverty, not water, and all the shop long. right to do that with having the 3rd world are the cause. it's a current tactical cause for the moment to change the government to radicalize

the situation. michael, would it be fair to say that what's lead to the situation is that, you know, there, there was perhaps some people would describe it as incompetence on behalf of castillo, because perhaps of a lack of presidential experience. but also congress continuously put obstacles in his face. and front defend to make sure that he couldn't rule. and that's what got us to the situation today. i think that's true. i, i would add a word to incompetence, which is corruption, which i think has been mentioned so far on the discussion, which i think is an important element to point to know that every single elected president and peru since fuji morin obviously including foot moore. he is still in jail for human rights, and corruption charges has been charged with corruption. and on this is what if you want to know why people are angry and full of resentment. it's be course i am.

kasteel was no different. it was 6 investigations by the prosecutor against gusty you. so he's not only incompetent because he had no experience, but he also on he was corrupt, like his predecessors. and i think that that was also a very important factor in why there was this antagonistic relationship with congress. but what you say is exactly true. ah, it shows that there was a, the hard right in peru never accepted castillo as legitimate. and he won the election fair and square was very, very close against takeoff. would you maury? but he was a legitimate elective president of peru and the fact that there was a sector of the hard right that was never recognized him and trying to undermine him. also shows that we were dealing with a non democratic, an important part of the congress as well. not the whole congress, but i think a certain a certain sector of the congress, micah, let me really just about the united states since you speak to us from new york. we

know that, let's look at this on the international response, because at least 14 countries are right across latin america and the caribbean, have condemned the co and peru. they've come out in support of castillo, but then you have the united states, for example, which is throwing its supports behind the dina blo, artie unelected presidency. so to what it, what is the u. s. the stake in all of this? well i think that i think durable, what day is, is the constitutional to his vice president. and if the president is impeached, then the vice president assume assumes are the power. and that's, that's totally constitutional. i think that what that, what her mistake was from the outset was that she said in her 1st speech that she was going to complete the term of paler castillo, which is 2026. and that made absolutely no sense because everybody do. if you look at any single pole and peru that the vast majority of peruvians wanted elections right away, not at the end of the term. so i think she's made

a lot of mistakes. look, there are no good options. the u. s. was not gonna support casteel, he attempted to qu, he'd, he over the course, the congress and take over the visionary. so that was, i think, suddenly of deserve to be condemned. but a, but what day has not me as that manage the situation a very well and certainly the armed forces, the security forces with human rights violations, is only fuel the protests and the anger at and, and got us to the very a dangerous point where you are today, alonzo al, how do you see this playing out? well, i think a, unfortunately, and the political establishment in lima is and unable or more likely, unwilling to understand the root cause of the process. they seem to be convinced that this is just a quote unquote terrorist attack on the country with no legitimacy,

and that it needs to respond through sheer force, causing the 50 that the bodies that we have now in the country. so unfortunately, i don't see this plane out in any way that is peaceful, not at least for some time. and i actually think the country where the country requires is a longer process of national discussion about how to change the system, how to change the status quo, so that it includes everyone because it is not possible to tell 101520 percent of the population. well, yes, the state has succeeded already has been reduced. there is, there is no extreme poverty, but people do not need to just be content with not being poor. people need more than just non already. so how does this majority get representation then along? so this is the, the proposal that exists right now from indigenous peoples themselves. from bolivia,

chile, both that tends to perform the constitution is to establish national state as in whereas the nation state is usually seen as one nation. one state recognize that the history of latin america is a history where several nations port and have equal rights and serve equal representation in congress. and i'm more of the centralized structure in politics. unfortunately when, when this is when this was proposed in chile, i would argue lack of a space to properly discuss this generator. a lot of fear that this was going to break up sheila into several little views and the people who was defeated over doesn't help or nationality was a one of the big arguments by what others as he descended into authoritarianism in bolivia. so it doesn't have the right,

it hasn't been a proper space to discuss this idea of changing the status quo of our country's why i think more than a constitution constitutional assembly. what peru need is a is a forum. busy of open consultation, a spanish, where the nation can sit together and here the grievances of the people and know what it feels like to be approved in the doesn't have access to health care that doesn't have access to public education. that is a police, if they ever complain or you know, doesn't have actual safety and it's a state that looks after its population. ok, that process need to start right on that note. i will have to leave it there. we've run out of time, but thank you so much. one claudio lecture and michael shifter and alan. so graham and thanks for joining us. thanks for watching. you can see the program again any time by visiting our website al jazeera dot com for further discussion. you can go to our facebook page at facebook dot com,

forward slash adrian side story in the conversation on twitter or handle is a j inside story from myself and the whole team right here in del hi, thanks very much for watching and bye bye for now. ah a oh

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