cost recent opinion polls suggest the prime minister, his popularity has dipped, and the labor party is approval ratings down the unfulfilled election promises. and a cost of living crisis overseas is definitely viewed very well. whereas i think internally, she's probably maybe lost the public's acceptance. a little bit now it was time for her to go in and no one in the right mind would have been cited for sure. like our job was held as a progressive leader. she was only the 2nd woman after boxed on vanity to give birth while in office. and perhaps what people will remember most is the empathy and compassion she showed in moments of crisis. but in the own words, politicians are human and she has no more to give. we give all that we can for as long as we can. and then it's time. and for me, it's time. the last day in office will be february. 3rd vague. i was just there. ah,

you're watching al jazeera, these are the headlines this hour. at least 4 people have been killed and up to injured in a stadium, paid in iraqi city of badger. it happens at the bathroom stadium ahead of the final be raving go cop between iraq and nationwide strikes against president to menu microns proposed pension. our phones are underway in france. these live pictures out of the capital, paris, with tens of thousands of people, of demonstrating the government announced plans to raise their retirement age by cheese to 64 railway schools and refinery being effected by workers walking off the job. ben smith has more home, one of the projects, most french people accept or agree that the has to be some sort of reform the pension system. because the 70 percent,

or maybe even more according to some polls. or are again the type of reform and manual macro wants to start increasing retirement to 64 from 62. they want other options explored, for example, increasing employ contributions or taxing the super rich 12 of francis biggest duty and have combined to sort of lead the process started up with unusual. unions rally rely, rarely united. the ukranian president says, there are several theories about wednesday's helicopter. crash which killed his interior minister. 40 and people died when the cropped came down next to a kindergarten in the town of bribery on the outskirts of keith. israeli forces have killed 2 palestinians during a ride in the occupied west bank that was shot and a refugee camp in the northern city of jeanine. those days violence takes a number of palestinians killed by rally, forces this month to 17. and the united nations pays cape is say they have

discovered the bodies of more than 40 people in mass graves in the eastern democratic republic of congo. they were found in its sheree province after violent attacks at the weekend. blamed on local rebel groups, the u. n. is calling for an investigation. all right, those are the headlines. i'm emily angle in the news continue here on al jazeera after the stream to stay with us. the world economic forum returns to dabble since january to assess the global economy, was shaped by the pandemic. and the war and ukraine can lead us from government and business, prevent a promised decade of action becoming a decade of uncertainty. extensive coverage on al jazeera with hello and welcome to the stream i manage habit dean on today's show wire woman's still so poorly represented in news media. take a look at this statistic. in 2020 women were featured as the subject and sources of

news stories, only 25 percent of the time. and that figure was found in the latest analysis of more than $30000.00 stories around the world in tv, radio, print, and online sources. so what happens when women's perspectives are left out of the news and how does it fit into the bigger picture of gender equality? well, you can join in on this conversation with your comments and questions via our live you to chat with here with us to talk about how women are seen and heard in the media in perth, australia, katherine shine, a senior lecture in journalism at curtain university in nairobi sarah materia, global coordinator at global media monitoring project, and in new castle in the u. k. we have karen ross, professor of gender and media studies at new castle university. ok ladies,

i'm so glad that you're with us and you know, just to address sort of the elephant in the room. it just so happens that this show topic happens when our usual host, who is phemie. okay, of course. who is it woman? unlike me, it should usually be in a, in this chair instead of me. so, you know, we're mindful of that. i can promise you, there won't be any man splaining because who are the experts. so we're here to hear from you. let's get straight to it. i want to ask you, i'm sarah, you know, we heard that that statistic, 25 percent of the time immune. how would you underline or highlight the real problem when it comes to representation for women in media? well, the problem of linda representation of women in mainstream news content will most likely be with us for the next 3 to 4 generations. so we're not going to see a parity in our lifetime. and in fact, her, what we have seen over time is that the piece of progress towards gender equality

has remained vaguely, shall the needle towards gender period. he has moved on v 8 points in 25 years. so really i the problem has persisted and has remained stubborn over time. and i just like to see at this thing better. but in fact, the probability of i irp is in taisha and of visibility in the news is even slim, awful women who are, who come from minority, magical as groups such as racialized in men, migrant men and older women and men. perhaps i can give an example. yeah, yeah, please agree that please give us give an exam. yes. in the u. k. for it, for instance, the likelihood of under presentation more than doubles for ethnic minority women in comparison to white british women. no, i appreciate you giving us that example because you know, this is not just about, you know, one aspect, but things can tend to be compounded when it comes to women, minorities, as you've mentioned, i see that as you were speaking. i. catherine was nodding,

so i just want to give her a chance sarah, to jump in here. catherine, what did you make of how sarah sorta framed this issue. this problem i saw you were nodding and i want to know, you know, when we talk about inclusion and then representation, those are 2 separate issues. a why are they important to discuss we, we need to those statistics that the g m m p has highlighted so consistently over time showed that women are under represented. and that is, that is a huge part of the problem. but the way that women are included in the news is also very important say, including minority groups, including marginalized perspectives, is really important, but also trying to avoid the stereotypes that often come with, including women in the news say, including women and always referencing them as mothers for example, mainly including women to a personal opinion instead of as authority figures. i'm karen you, you know when you this and then on what, what's been said so far. i'm curious,

you've been working on this for many years and i know that you frame it as marginalization as well as stereotyping when we kind of outline the main issues. why those 2? i think that's a done. let me give a, a couple of examples. and while i'm the walk i'm doing at the moment is looking at women, owed to women within the media workforce. he had been maneuvered out of, of that jobs because of, well for, for a variety of reasons. none of which ought to do with that competence of the professionalism. so i would totally agree with, with the point that kind of sarah's been making. and in terms of the, you know, we have to take a much more into sectional approach is not just about women, it's about be a women with particular characteristics. and indeed, you know that there's also issues about older people, but generally being seen, both in, in front and behind that the camera and in terms of nice rooms and, and representation. but the point about juxtaposing marginalisation with

stereotyping is that it's, if you're doing research around kind of gender media, it's actually quite difficult to try and, and analyze an absence. in the absence of women, you can only really look at where women are present to where women present. they tend to be exactly as katherine's mentioned. you know, they are often seen as people who will give expert who give a public, a personal opinion be, you know, part of, you know, the, the, the public. we don't see women as experts. and again, just thinking about cove it you know, we know that kind of. 1 house has been seen very much, is a domain of women. however, if i think about the u. k. news media and i, i guess it's the same everywhere else where you would expect more women's voice is to come in as expert within a kind of house context. light cove, it, we just didn't see that, you know, and when we, when we looked at the g, m. p, in the last, the, the last iteration which was in 2020 right. in the middle of the pandemic. we,

we looked specifically at cove at 19 stories as opposed to yet more general new stories. and again, we just saw it. we see the same patterns repeated. and the question we have to all surely is why is that? is it, let me have nothing to say right? because women are not expert and the opposite to both. those questions is no, no, of course it's not. and then, you know, that's why we're discussing this issue. and because you brought up the corona virus, i want to get to some of the comments that are coming in on youtube in a moment. but before we do, sarah, when we talk about the corona virus and use coverage specifically of the pandemic, we know that it skewed heavily to male experts. i think it was what one 3rd. yeah. one 3rd of sources quoted about the cove in 1000 pandemic were women. i mean only one 3rd. and i'm wondering, you know, what, what does that actually mean? i mean, you know why, what is contributing to the problem? is it, are you, are we able to identify sort of the 2 biggest factors in your mind,

sarah? well actually it's interesting because, and we found that, oh, well i for the longest time that we have been analyzing the science and health stories, there are they have always been at the back of the news agenda, occupying about 70 percent of all the topics in the news, but to the corporate maintain health crisis. ah, the proportion of stories doubled, 17 percent of the news agenda. and as a, as a news becomes more important gain salience. oh, we've faith that to a women her i been relegated to their margins as, as though people who are subjects or the new the sauces a news, which is pretty interesting. i've been bad who withheld? yes, i'm sorry. i'm only interjecting to say, it's maybe not surprising, but it's astonishing that, you know, there's that correlation where, you know,

when women's visibility before sort of the attention of, of the pandemic on how they were hire more visible. and then once it became popular, all of a sudden they were less miserable visible what's, what's, what's driving now? it's interesting, it seems, lay, cur, you know, as stories become important and on the news agenda. busy women, when you are the other, the, they tend to be really guitar to the margins, and i bet only it's, it's hard to explain that. a, for example, i doing the health cray sees it is women who are the caregivers or women who are present in a, in trying to mitigate the impact of the pandemic on the elderly, on children, on, on the, on general populations. yet when the news reporters us was forcing for x by the opinion, oh women, why?

i think out about half of like 26 percent of of those were interviewed as experts who are present her sources here in as health specialist to our women. and when you look at the real world statistics, almost 50 percent of those who work in health care, right? are women? well, so it is really astonishing to find. yeah that, that, that disparity certainly invites a lot more questions. are one of those, i'll put you karen. i mean, in the u. k. i remember anecdotally that the briefings were largely delivered by men, even though, as we just heard from sarah, you know, i'm sure there were excellent qualified women in the field doing a lot of the work. why is that the case in your experience, anecdotally and why is such a little progress progress been made? well, i mean, not even anecdotally. i mean the, yeah there's, there's, there's 3rd evidence to, to show, thus, and even, you know, meet your organization's themselves. mean, the guardian did a really interesting piece of work and a couple of other kind of news news. jameson forwards out on this. something

similar in terms of looking at where women appeared in those cobit briefings, which were breaking over at the very long period. and the over overall, i think that, you know, at least one study looked at something like, you know, briefings over 9 months in a very few women. now, arguably, it's not because that want really in an expert women, jenny harry's for, for example, who was a key person who did actually appear occasionally to kind of go to be part of the, the, the, that the panel of 3, which is what we, we tend to get in the u. k. so it's not that that women were entirely absent but where you expected women to be talking and briefing the public. that was really, it was very scarcely visible. however, on the other hand, other kind of media organization, other countries in particular, i just think about new zealand, new zealand in particular were much more proactive in putting women in front of the

public glassware or other countries on the, on the, on the grounds that you know it's, if we think about women's communication style, particularly during cove, it, there is a, not necessarily cut, a gentler stop, a different scholar style of that she commuting health messages, right? so a lot of the research would suggest that where that did happen, that was much more that, that the public, the citizens, you know, who were being addressed by bees, arguably, slightly better communicators, actually understood more about coping and the, or how that how the bars was working right, but you know, but part it just to get but to your question like why, why do we get what we get me? one of the reasons i would suggest, and i can say this because i'm a media academic, i don't look in a newsroom. it seems to me that partly it's because it's much easier to go to the usual suspects for. and if you already, as a journalist, if you already have

a really good relationship with a particular set of experts or particular such a politician, you are going to go to those people. and so if we think about it might even be unconscious bias or just habit forming behavior as you're saying. and you know, i mean, i think so much of human behavior and i'm not trying to just dismiss it that there's no massage involved or what have you. but yeah, i think it could be just a product of habit. couldn't not about, but hockman. i mean, i would just so he just let me just in the, i mean i, i would say, unless they saw i love this face, i'm conscious bus. because for me, my experience, anecdotal or otherwise is most of these policies or anything but on contrive. in some ways we use this term, but we should just be say, is conscious, right? there is miss such it, it almost every sex it's carries racism. it's almost as if, when you say unconscious bias like you're, you're giving people a pass, if you will, said to perpetuate you're, you're totally and you're chunky during that, which isn't to say that there isn't unconscious bias. you know, clearly, you know, they're all sorts of ways in which we're operating, which all, you know, part of

a kind of cultural dna. i'm not, not, not signed up, but i am saying that yeah, it's not like you don't know that you're going to a mad to out yet again. yes, another man here spouting. yes. yes. another which isn't to say that they don't have interesting things to say, but wouldn't it be so much more interesting to hopper range a perspectives from across the right, you know, the spectrum of humanity, right. and i think, you know, often in the media, i forget me sir. i just want to jump in here with a small anecdote. i mean, for a long time, i've said, you know, when discussing the media, the democratization of media, which, which hasn't fully sort of self actualized, if you will, that, you know, there was a time when the only voice is deemed to be sort of authoritative. incredible. we're older white men, and i think those legacies take a long time as we're witnessing to change, let alone completely be equalized. i do want to mention no, if i well sir, i'll put this to you. i was going to go to catherine. but so many people in our

youtube, i mean talking about bias and talking about i'll just put it straight to you. i mean, fed saying the question is when will women be satisfied when they abolish men? completely from the conversation. and then we have maybe a slightly more useful question from our, of a k o, 988 saying how can you say women are under represented in media when there are literal quotas and incentives to hire women? they replaced casts and movies with women, even though the films perform poor. so needless to say, there is a lot of sort of massage and i for lack of a better word and our comment section, i don't know thera, do you wanna address those comments before i come to you, catherine? oh, well well i can t at this sir. and it, is that a, to a large extent or to some extent, you can see that the issue is socialization. carrion alluded to the issue of culture. and in many cultures is particularly in the globe without context. mean many cultures. oh, women are socialized,

girls and women as lazed are not to be present in the public eye in the public domain. true. and therefore it becomes the, you know, even more difficult for them to, to be present to be visible. but these and on us here on news organizations are newsrooms to make the effort to go out and find this women and get them to, to speak. you know, one thing that we found in our research is that for the 1st time in since 1995, there was a jump in the proportion of vo women who were thought for expert opinion between 20152020. and that could be perhaps because there, oh there, you know, news organizations have taken this critique on board. and there have been some, some have taken this on board. and, and there have been a much rooming of, of various initiatives to create directories of women experts. so perhaps it could

be, well, you know, one of the reasons that we found that her, that jump. sure, sure. and let's jump to another expert armor. catherine, i wanna put this to you. i mean, i don't know if you want to comment on some of those comments in the youtube chat. maybe maybe it's not bad and productive to do so. but i do want to ask you specifically, i mean, our women then, you know, we talk about socialization. our women then less likely to see themselves as experts less likely to want to be interviewed on t v. how does that sort of play into this on, you know, i know there's already been such an erosion of trust when we talk about the news media in general. so how does that work in it, in an internalized sense? well, i think the most interesting thing that i found from my research is that overall there is a very high degree of willingness to be interviewed with the women that i have interviewed myself or are done through c o. m got their opinions, re survey research. so i don't,

i actually don't think willingness is so much of an issue. i do think that up with lots of women ah, lack the confidence that men sometimes do have nervousness is a factor. and so generalist, i think need to be aware of that. and women do have some reservations about up appearing in the news and some of those reservations, i think a justified. and so i think it's really important that journalists are aware of those things and really try to mitigate them and make the, the whole experience as positive as it can. they, i think the, the, the initial approach for an interview is really, really crucial. and part of that is sort of d, mystifying, the whole process explaining exactly what the interview entails, what sort of information the, the generalist is looking for. so sort of, i'm sort of taking the perspective thores through the in me step by step can be really helpful. and i'm giving out and i think if you give women at women

a chance they are, they do want the opportunity to speak. they want the sort of the, the validation and the credibility that comes with that. and i, they did their bit mean i'm, i'm really shocked at some of the responses that you're getting on you in a 3 are you change the, when you look at the statistics, they say it's like clear that women are under represented. this is, this is obviously a problem that needs to be addressed. and why shouldn't women's voices being well, i mean, i don't want to, sorry, i do. and i also share, you know, there are some other comments like santa yes me and saying women's lack of representation. and media basically means the exclusion of half of the population. and it's obvious. and in order to develop a country, it is important to include them. we also have people who are saying, you know, that we need to be focusing on this in the arab world. see less, larson saying al jazeera must turn its critical lens on the arab world. more often that there's great disparity there on this issue. i think it's just important for

giving me catherine, for interjecting but i do want to just frame, you know, women in conflict zones or what have you. i mean, it can be tricky. you know, for some women in certain cultures, there is this association for better or worse. this pressure that you must be modest, you must not speak. i garner a lot of public attention. i mean, these are pockets of the worlds, not the whole world, but you know, so culture obviously plays a role as well. and i'm wondering sarah, if newsrooms continue with this business as usual, what's the real fear in your mind? just to put it briefly? well, as for sure, i think the, there's going to be an erosion, a continued erosion of trusting journalism at the moment. we know that journalism is in crisis. we have heard about media organizations closing, or we've heard about many cutbacks in, in, in newsrooms. and that erosion of trust or lead, so the groups that are making a lathe to are found their own media organizations at the margins. oh,

which is really not what we want, right? we, you know, we all need to belong to the mainstream. and we need to, we need to have a media that our participants at peers. it's role in building a democratic society, right. you know, in being appeal of democracy in, in and ensuring that all voices are heard. and i, and i see that sarah, or forgive me, sorry, karen that you were nodding as sarah was making that point there. i do want to share with you that we have a youtube common coming in from janine saying media, especially as prejudice against older women in media. we spoke about earlier. if you're a minority. yeah. and a woman, and it's compounded as well as for the elderly before i come to you, sir, for you me, karen? to answer the question. i do wanna include one more women's voice may be familiar to those of you who watch the show. it is none other than family. she sent us this video common. take a listen. please change a parenting portion to us at the stream. i think the question should be,

why is it not as important to every media organization? we what town several years ago that if we are not representing half of the humans in the world, we are not doing a good job, is that every time we sit down, do a show. we ought to see where the women in that conversation, what expertise can they bring to us on the street? sometimes you will see more within the men. we are balancing out the universe. it is a mission that we are so proud to be on and it is never over. you can never sit back and think we did it this year. we'll do it again next year. we have to keep checking. but the importance of this is not just to represent women, but once you start to look at under represented groups in the media, you thought see many other communities who also need that platform and what she stops you can't sell. and it shouldn't be noted that, you know, there are in 202260.74 percent of guests on the stream. we're women,

that's up from 54.9 percent in 2021. we've exceeded our gender balance school for the 5th year in a row. and just so, you know, if you go back few years in 2018, we've made a public pledge to never finish a year without at least 50 percent women guests. and it's not just family who is usually the host of the show. but many women who work behind the scenes tirelessly to put the show together and, and you know, i wonder karen are watching some of the questions that family was asking. what comes to your mind? i mean, looking forward, where are the solutions, what should be done to bridge this gap? okay, so, i mean, i, i love what i me saying and you know, well done elders is the stream of, you know, being, being in the vanguard. i mean, following on in some ways, teed bbc's efforts with a 5050 project, which again they that starts in 2017 doing media monitoring around gender. an us by me says, now they're looking at other kind of us. but so looking at disability,

the looking at close in that they're looking at minority other racialized minorities. so media organizations are doing things. but can i just say that one of the, the key area that we really need to kind of focus on the gen listened students. because what if we can actually encourage our students to think about issues around equality and, and sexuality while they are still journal journalism students. while they're still developing that croft before they become, you know, get, get into a new east room and necessarily become a acculturated to the norms of that particular newsroom. if we can get them thinking about what, how they want to be job is what, what their kind of moral or ethical code is and get the right thinking about these things. now while the students and just to say again, if i don't think about my own student, my own students at nico, so university, very great. we were running out of time. i've been working. when i say is that we

have been working with the baby seats, 5050 projects, and the more that we could make that interface between jonas and students and nice rooms, we might have some hope of producing jun generations of john that for who actually this is part of that didn't have a parent, i'm gonna have to cut you off there, but that is certainly an aspiration. that is a good way to end this. so this conversation one that's going to continue here at the stream. that's all the time we have for today. i do want to thank all of our guests today, sarah, catherine and karen for joining us. any more conversations here at the spin ah witness inspiring films from around the world. they shall not stop the violin and kill the power is bears witness intimate portraits and epic struggles. because leadership is also not just the people witness, the human spirit, and the bitter reality. there are still men will believe. women are

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