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this is al jazeera, these are the top stories. thousands of people are holding mass demonstrations for 2nd day, improves capital amount. the resignation of president, dean, and velocity, and an end to police violence. ukraine's president is calling for decisive action on foreign weapon supplies ahead of a meeting of western allies in germany on friday, florida lensky urge them to deliver more sophisticated weapons. the white house is assured americans, congress will find a bipartisan solution to avoid a debt default. that's half of the country hit, it's $31.00 trillion dollar boring limit on thursday. more than a 1000000 people in france of most against plan pension reforms. president manuel my chrome wants the to raise the retirement age by 2 years to 64. like to alley baldwin will face involuntary manslaughter charges over a fatal shooting on a film set in 2021 who was pointing a gun on the side of the film rust. when it went off. kenning,

cinematographer helena hutchins, a u. s. judge is ordered playing, make a boeing to face criminal charges in court next week, over 2 crashes of it's 737 max jets. it comes after families of some victims rejected a 2 and a half $1000000000.00 agreement negotiated by the firm to avoid prosecution. those are the headlines up next. it's inside story. ah, jeremy is under pressure to supply ukraine. this most modern battle times of my germany's reluctant while tank scene is so crucial in the war against russia. this is inside story. ah

hello, very welcome to the program. i'm nick clark. russia invasion of ukraine is nearing it 2nd year and it's been a returned to conventional warfare in europe. something that a would have been unimaginable 12 months ago while the death hall mounts the supplies military aid to keith has become an international political battle in itself. germany is under pressure to allow the supplier, it's modern leopard 2 tanks to ukraine. the new defense minister gave little away in his 1st meeting with his u. s. defense, extra counterpart, lloyd austin. and he's off to negotiate all cardiac cindy's and signed is often during history, but especially during these times, germany and the u. s. are standing together when acting, but also during the concrete question i log in, it may be the tank zine, the patriot air defense on. so multiple rocket launcher garcia. german systems are proving itself in ukraine. what many?

well, political and business figures have been meeting at the world economic forum and devils where the issue of german tanks for ukraine has been hotly debated both on stage and on the sidelines on diplomatic correspondent james bay's report. on the discussions. the world economic forum, the doubles looks at all the issues of the world, but among the e. u. a nato leaders here. a lot of the discussions have been about ukraine, of course, and about weapons for ukraine, presidents lensky, address the world economic forum by video link. he called for more air defense, more tanks. and the focus has been very much on those tanks and very much on germany. germany has a main battle tank called the leopard too, but it's not just in german stocks. germany has sold those tanks to many of the e u and nato countries. some of those countries, notably poland, would like to give some of that tanks to ukraine. but under the export regulations, when germany sold them, they have to get german permission and that permission has not come so far. so

a great deal of pressure on the german chancellor left schultz who was here in the us. he was asked specifically about the leper to tanks. he dodge the question. he said that germany had provided a great deal of weaponry in the 1st year of this war. he said it would operate in lock step with its allies. and i think that means very much the united states, as well as the other nato allies. and of course, the us hasn't said it's abrams main battle tank all you that to ukraine because it says it would be difficult for the ukrainians to operate in the terrain that exists on the ground in ukraine. chancellor shots also saying that he wants to avoid any cost full all out war between nato and the nato members and russia. and so everything now moves, i think, after all, the discussions all this week that have been taking place, a devils to ramstein that important meeting of the u. s. airbase in germany, where defense ministers will be meeting to decide what now to give to ukraine. a

james based with that update from doubles. so let's take a closer look at the specs of the leopard to tag. it's been upgraded several times since it was launched in $979.00. currently it's used by 13 europe in armies, lepper to his violin for its maneuverability. it's lighter than other comparable models. the tank is recent battlefield experience metaphors, enough. galveston use them. and left tanks and germany supplied to other nations require approval from berlin before they can be re exported to a 3rd country. and that means the times cannot be sent to ukraine without germany's permission. the alright, let's bring in, i guess now join us live from wilcher and the united kingdom retired british major general author dinero, he's also a former middle east adviser to the u. k. ministry of defense from london dummy sack the most so is a senior lecturer, insecurity and development at kings college,

london and from berlin. please say ben harris is joining us. the founder and editor in chief of b. e in telling use a warm welcome to you all general dinner. if i may start with you, because i want to examine just why the such intense focus on this issue of tangs, one might think that tank is a part of a bygone era sally to a layman anyway, because in this age of long range precision missiles, you think that they weren't as potent as they once were, but i presume that's not the case is still very valid on the battle ground. yes, very about it. please bear in mind the listening to a very ancient chad general and you need to take over the printer so. so having tanks on the battlefield contributes to what we call the all arms battle. and it's integration of that or arms battle that makes an attacking force

or a defending force, much more potent, the ukrainians have got some good tanks. but, but as we have seen that they're not that much better than the, the russians. and we have seen how damaged the russians tanks could be. with this latest and to turn weaponry, the ukraine's been supplied with these modern tanks, particularly the leper the challenger. and the brands all have very sophisticated protection against most of these modern weapons and having them on the battlefield in support of the infantry and under the long range support of artillery and is a game changer. right? again, change in what quantity general would they be required to be a game changer? would you say? yes, in reference to the very gallant off of britain,

squadron of tanks 40 in tanks. and we, we have to look at much greater numbers. way back when we, we went to to rescue to a, to liberate kuwait from santa present. to me we had the allies had thousands of tanks. then the british had a $150.00. so the offer of 14 is, is very symbolic. and we were 1st doing it and we hope that this might pull the others in, and i hope it does because 14 is not enough. and data is done at 10. i think i'd be right in saying the times would be the most powerful direct weapon provided to ukraine. so far, even though at the moment the numbers for some way short to what is required certainly by ukraine. i. yes,

of course to that we have to are good that he mars which have proven very effective sort of long range itinerary systems. so i think we shouldn't forget about about those this way. and what is interesting is how much they're going to time the tides in your brain favor. so i think with that, he's clearly shows that when times or other sort of western middle monday deliver to ukraine, it can really have an impact on the backing to that's why the delivery of these times is so relevant. i'm done and i would agree with the previous speaker that it really would have to sort of assist you crane and trying to sort of carry out more effective offensive operations and also be able to operate more effectively in defensive positions as are kind of also some kind of more mobile resource and at the moment i think this is very important and that it also comes together waste

addition to the around munition and also posted me you know, 5 digits so that the whole combination of forces can operate in a more effective offensive manner right and been iris. what about the russian capability? what would it mean for the russian side of things if you know convoluted convoys of tant, joined a ukrainian offensive? how would it change things? do you think? i think it would be significant as a general state, if enough tanks were sent in a, in number 2 to the right appeal. i mean, you have to put this into the context. why is this coming up now? and the battle now has sort of ground down to estimates. i mean, in september we had this remarkable offensive cancer offensive by the ukrainians in the hockey region. and they broke through the russian defences and then went like a nice through, but pushing them back, liberating hundreds of launches. and then shortly at the end of that month they, they recaptured kennestone as well. but now now the fighting is come down the

russian to done that partial mobilization that brought 300000 fresh troops into the, into the field. and the front line is stabilized. and the, the epicenter, the viking now is around modes and the best region. and so that which apparently is just fall into to the russian side. but that side baffled, has been going on for months and we're talking in a couple of meters a day if that and it goes backwards and forwards. and so the $22.00 sites and that butting heads, but nobody has the advantage. if you were to bring in these powerful times, these offensive weapons, then that would make a huge difference if you bring them in enough number. because then you can master the go on the offensive and attack the russian defenses and push them back. poland president do the devil's yesterday called on the west and 100 of these leopard twos . and i think around to thousands of them scattered throughout europe. i'm pulling this up as about $250.00 and

a 100 liquids on the field would make all the difference. because again, as a general said that they're about 20 tons heavier than anything the russians have got the $270.00 choose, which is the workforce of the russian side. and the arm around them is significant, and russia doesn't have things like the american made javelin. that the gradient in order to take these tanks out so that they would be a real game changer. and i think that's what people are looking at is getting frustrated at this deadlock 100000 people have died on both sides with no one making any progress. and so the ukrainians is saying right enough with a defensive weapons, with the patriots, with the javelins that you centers. these have been very useful. give us some offensive weapons so that we can actually win this war and push the rushes back over the 1991. and it's ok and general say, we've been alluded to it just then, but any big scale offensive would, would need by ukraine, that is, would need to be backed up by air and ground support. right?

yes. that. and of course that tank gives the ground forces maneuverability, which is benz just told us, you know, has ground to a halt in order to maneuver. we've got to have mo bile, well protected, hard hitting far, and anything that can deliver, that is the tank. and leopard is, is perfectly formed for that one. and of course it's handed by so it's, it's not going to take long to get it into ukraine and, and it is relatively easy to operate compared to some aspects, certainly of abraham's and, and of challenger. but it's the maneuverability and the protection that, that affords this berry hard hitting bitter kit. that makes it such a potent force. all right, so that, that's the kind of the battlefield landscape. don't tell why do you think germany

has been just so reticent or reluctant in committing to providing these german maintain why it's important to know that we're not to come primarily from the chancellor on a show. so i think she adverse party are very worried about about an explanation about the potential conflict between rec, russia, and made to germany being involved in that. and now i think that exaggerated because, you know, germany even start by authorizing the delivery of those countries which have them already. and that wouldn't necessarily involve germany itself. there is a lot of concern in german, you know, in, you know, in certain orders as being seen as being sort of part of our corner friends too. but i think that is a really wrong approach. but there is, i think, a very strong in a way, sort of tradition in germany and what is interesting on up sure. you know,

you really was part of a passive tradition and, and he was sort of very much as bon time nato politician. although, you know, he evolved, allowed to go out to his political career. and as we know, he gave his famous speech on our, you know, and at the start of the war in ukraine where he talked about, do you know how german you had to change in school? and again, the face of the russian fact. but at the same time, i think there is a very strong reluctance, and i think it's probably looking at public opinion which is slowly shifting on there is increasing support for support freeing the leopards. but i think that, you know, deep inside, i think it's very reluctant to, to see germany because of its history during the 2nd world war. and also during the cold war. and germany was divided, occupied by the soviet union. and germany could be a potential theodore war, you know, that they can repeat it. so there is a very,

it's sort of ingrained deep historical, sort of narrative that a strong in certain quarters in germany. that in a way putting a break. but i the keys, i get that child increasing number pressure from inside his own condition by numbers of the green party on the p. yeah. let me just bring, been in those contradictions here on that. because if you have this kind of this german reluctance, but on the other hand, it back in february, last year, i love schultz was, you know, dancing this historical turning point for jimmy to run puppets defenses. which many said that was something extraordinary since they haven't done that since world war 2. and even today we're hearing about the new german defense minister talking up germany's need to strengthen defenses. yeah. but the key word there is defense. and what we're talking about here is a war with russia, which is, you know,

the tank offensive weapons. and let's step back and understand the context. this why i mean, for the 1st germany has this history. i mean, it uniquely will most uniquely in europe is for the russian and lost and doesn't want to repeat that experience. i mean, they're more sensitive than anybody else. but the overriding goal of nate, so in general, in germany in particular, is not to help the crating and beat the russians. first of all, most it's 1st and foremost is to prevent a world war to prevent a direct conflict between 9 so and russian. no one wants to go there, and that's one of the reasons why we've been pouring in defensive weapons in order to make sure that you lose this will, which is not quite the same thing as making sure it wins this war. and we've now reached the point with the style where everyone is getting frustrated, hundreds and thousands of people dying. so there's now a push to abandon that and to give, give ukraine some offensive weapons. thresh changed violence. and the reason why

germany in particular is so nervous because it's unpredictable how the feminine will react. i am so far, perchance indicated that he hasn't got a problem with. so, supplying defensive weapons in so much as russia still has the advantage on the field, both in terms of artillery and men, and that he can just grind the ukrainians down. and if you put offensive weapons that change the, the type of the war, and so your crimes advantage then all the new really scary possibilities, including tactical nuclear weapons appear. and that's really what's behind this hesitancy. and it's not just germany. i mean the unspoken but from nate said right, but again, it's conflict. our top priority is to avoid level 3. second priority is to help you train defend itself when it's doing an amazing job, something that nobody was expecting. right? general denart do. you can concur without all you know. there is the other argument that defeat for ukraine, that in itself could lead to well, 3 yes,

it could, and it's going to be difficult to predict which way it's going to fall. and whether the supply of these tanks, which are in the main and offensive, but also huge and useful in any form of defensive posture, is going to affect that balance and done. i'm, you know, i'm going to hit very difficult to predict that. i said, bend, we talked about the united states and germany themselves said that, you know, the u. s. has incentive tanks and if they do, then we will at why do you think the u. s. is reticent as well. is the same, says, i mean, nobody wants to start with russia because then, you know, it'll becomes extremely unpredictable and then becomes extremely scary. and with the need to exchange between the major powers and the americans to have also

further this policy of supplying largely defensive weapons, the peer pressure amongst europeans. and you've got some countries in europe like the polish and the baltic states in particular that are very anti russian, very pro, ukraine wants to see these heavy weapons put in and others sitting on the fence and people are hungry, of course friends with switching. but for the americans, i mean shows is trying to pass the buck. he's getting a lot of pressure from all the other members, particularly the more aggressive ones to send these tanks and germany has the largest defense sector in europe. and so everybody's got gym and weapons and, and you can exploit and she's playing with that gym mission and she'll said this week i think it was just yesterday that if the american send the abra tanks there times then germany will policies. so he's person about the american, but then the american society, and i think you report to said that that's

a reluctance to send that thanks to because they're not suitable in the, in the terrain. you know, we're talking about huge, flat agricultural land. this is the perfect germain 4 times and i do a more of a necessary because this little cover. so i have sounds a bit like an excuse. and again, on the english side of the case, i'd rather they sent 14 times, which is a gesture, like the general said, you have to send much, much more than 50100. thanks would make a difference. so we're not seeing that too. so everyone's putting their punches, i think it ramstein tomorrow, what we'll see is that show caves to the pressure that he's under. but there will be a token gesture of a dozen acids that will be sent from holland. say, you know, is it take the pressure off to, to do something more to help you financed. but again, not going far enough, not sending it a 100 times. that would actually make a big difference on the battlefield because of the fear of provoking russia to go to the next level. doing mass mobilization, putting

a 1000000 people into the field and over running fine. and then start taking imo dumps in poland. really, stream reactions like that and don't tell i am just coming back to this point about a potential russian to feed, especially in the light of what the, the former russian president to meet you. maybe dave has said that the defeat of a nuclear power in a conventional war may trigger a nuclear war one, i think that they've been beckoning, but use of nuclear war now for several months, even before the start of the war, which was talking about this rates if there was an attempt on, on crimea by the ukraine. yeah, i was, i think, you know, we have to take that into consideration, but it shouldn't be a sort of a sense to terra and i think that we have to be cautious. but i think that would be highly unlikely that russia sort of starts sort of a major nuclear exchange. wait, wait there waste. i mean there is the possibilities. april jewels are for start to

nuclear weapons, but i mean, what were they really achieve? and i think that the americans have made it clear that if there is a use of tactical nuclear weapons in ukraine, the americans are major, would intervene even with conventional forces on the other. wouldn't be a very high risk to the regime of president fulton. so i think that are often, many of the statements are end to today, but they have to be taken seriously. i'm at the previous ecos notate, you know, the question of escalation is in everyone's mind. so you know that we caution, but at the same time, you know, we now have to consider that we are turning point because russia is ready to mobilize a very high number of, of so here is it is engaging its own, its entire sort of economic infrastructure and industrial infrastructure towards the war effort, the production of tanks that you know, and other times of me trick reach me that could be

a potential use for very much to russia in the back and see ok. we just run out of time. we want to finally come to a general janera setting all these munitions to ukraine. it crosses my mind that it's not just depleting. countries of their own defense capability and just make the world a more dangerous place in that sense to i don't think so. what i read is important here is the speed of decision making because there's no doubt that to change the temper of this conflict and to get it resolved. we need to support the ukrainians with tanks and the american consent does in, in smaller numbers. because clearly the distances and also the training on the brands is more difficult. the british already planned to send a squadron and the, the, the real answer is for the leopards to be supplied by the various countries who got

them. because the on the board is ready to go and they are much easier ready to operate. alright, well what's closely how this pans out in the coming days, we have to leave that. thank you to all, i guess after dinner the dealers have the most so and been ours. and thank you to watching. you can see the program again anytime by visiting our website, algebra dot com and for further discussion, go to our facebook page. that's facebook dot com, forward slash a j inside story. you can also join the conversation on twitter. handle is at a j insights to remain the clock. the whole team here is the me ah,

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