them this month, family, we are here to visit our family in hong kong. i haven't seen them for 3 years, and i missed them. economists say the recovery for industries hit hard by the pandemic won't happen overnight. but there's reason for some optimism describing a confidence that when the mobility is that it be like a repair all sectors growing, mall growing and also supporting the business that already has been 3 years suffer from the panoramic. as people gather festivities with their families, many a hoping this year will be much better than the last. jessica washington on to sierra uncle ah no, i am fully bathsheba. with the headlines on al jazeera, poland says it's seeking approval to send a german made tongue see ukraine. germany's under pressure to approve their ex ot

a meeting of e. u foreign ministers is currently underway in brussels, where the issue is being discuss. meanwhile rushes foreign minister, se galeb rob is meeting or his half african counterpart melody pan door in pretoria . moscow has been squeezed by international sanctions because of the war in ukraine and is now turning to its allies to drum up support. tommy demila has more from pretoria. what this visit really is being used, o fool analysts would say, is really a russia wanting to cement relations with various african countries across the continent. and this comes just 6 months after the russian foreign ministers of your lover of loss visited africa that time, countries like uganda and egypt. and in many of these instances, we've seen plans to build nuclear plants, military cooperation, as well as a number of economic and trade agreements. and we know that this continues to be

the case with south africa, with those naval exercises coming up in just a months time. authorities in pakistan are working to restore electricity after a nation wide power outage. the energy minister blames a fault in the national grades, a residence of a bedouin village in the occupied west bank that threatened with dimmed demolition, say they won't move israel's far right. national security minister a to mar, been given, has demanded. the calamari settlement be destroyed in 2018 israel supreme court approved a plan to bo goes it and replace it by illegal israeli settlements. turkish president, reshape ty, berto. one has confirmed his bringing his country's elections forward a month to may 14 opinion polls show both the presidential and parliamentary elections will be tight, making them at once. biggest tests in his 2 decades leading the nation police in california say the suspect in a mass shooting is dead. ready 72 year old who can tron,

shot himself after he was cornered by police. officers say he opened fire at a dance studio near los angeles on saturday, killing at least 10 people. and those are the headlines on al jazeera, as always more news on our website, al jazeera dot com coming up next year. it's inside story to stay with us. we understand the differences and similarities of cultures across the world. so no matter what lucy, al jazeera will bring you the news, and current affairs that matter to you out is in europe, turkey and sweden again at odds. this time, i'm cur, is angry or the burning of a koran outside the turkish embassy in stockholm. and like all nato members, it holds a veto over sweden's bids to join the alliance. what is the real state of relation

between the 2 countries? and can they overcome the differences? this is inside story. ah. hello there and welcome to the program. i'm laura kyle. turkish swedish relations are again in the spotlight that softer a far right activist, destroyed a copy of the koran. outside the turkish embassy and stock home on saturday. police didn't intervene when was most with palo dunn who has both danish and swedish nationality addressed a small group before desecrating islamic holy book. takia cancelled a visit by sweden's defense minister and summoned at sam baset. her speaking on saturday took his foreign minister, expressed his government's anger, seem to be made down sweden. this madman has insulted our religion. is one and our

holy book, the koran and has committed such acts before this is a racist act. that is also a hate crime. when we heard the news, we took the necessary steps, if you will, have it all in there, get it. you know, the bottom that we called sweden's ambassador to ankara to our ministry. we made the necessary warning, or ambassador in stock home met directly with the sweetest foreign minister and conveyed our thoughts on the matter. no one can call us freedom of thought. they don't allow the burning of another religious book, but when it comes to the koran and islam of phobia, the immediately say freedom of expression and freedom of thought, hate crime and racism are not freedom of thought. it is not according to swedish law, ignores it according to the decisions of the council of europe. according to the european court of human rights ruling, he crime and racism are not freedom of thought and freedom of expression. sweden has condemned the incident form and such a bias built from said it was appalling. he wrote on twitter, sweden has

a far reaching freedom of expression, but it does not imply that the swedish government all myself support the opinions expressed called belt as the former sweetest prime minister and the co chair of european council on foreign relations. speaking to al jazeera, he said the far right protest had nothing to do with the government. the swedish government has nothing to do with ever with was sort of isolated, extremely loonies or which we have. so i mean we, we're not entirely load in the world and having loonies running around in the streets, wanted to do things. and please try to say that they see that they do it at places that doesn't cause any harm or switch public doesn't really take in the note. this particular guy has been doing it several times before at several locations. and it has nothing to do with the swedish government. on the instant comes as the 2 countries navigate a series of diplomatic hurdles,

sweden and finland want to join nato, following russia's invasion of ukraine as a member of the alliance. takia can veto an application and so far has not approved sweden's request. so aiden is also home to a large kurdish community up to 100000 strong to care has demanded. sweden takes a tougher stance against the alleged kurdish militants, such as the p k. k which is outlawed, and also wants action taken against the large members of the glen movement, which it blames for a co attempt in 2016. ah. ok, let's bring in our guests now and in stock home. it's philipo connor, a journalist covering social and political issues in sweden for more than 2 decades . an anchor is met k, the associate professor at hassan, columbia university, and a specialist on turkish foreign policy and security issues and in oxford were joined by samuel romani, associate fellow at the royal united services institute of

a warm welcome to all of you, philip, let's start with you and sweden's freedom of expression, is it too far reaching, allowing such a provocative act like this that many countries around the world would consider a hate crime? i think that's the big debate in sweden at the moment, laura, after the burning of the koran, as mentioned in the report, fred, prior to our discussion there, this is not the 1st time that ross was, pardon, has done this in sweden. he seeks to go around, he seeks to provoke this kind of reaction, and he's made it very much about air, freedom of speech. now, there's no sort of coincidence that he's going around burning a koran rather than a christian bible, because this is the kind of thing that he thinks is going to provoke a backlash against muslims in this country. and he is part of the movement that doesn't want to see on the bosoms in this country. so far, what he did yesterday is entirely legal. that's the way it's been interpreted in this country. freedom of speech is if the constitutional per protected right here in sweden on it's very, very well protected. so as the foreign minister was saying,

he may not agree with what was said yesterday, but he does agree with the right to say is the problem that many people would see here. laura is that it wasn't a problem when the air polo them was going to muslim. sober was, are predominantly most of suburbs in places like this could be outside of stock. homer rosengold outside mama, then nobody, no minister came out and said this was terrible for that for several years. was paula down was doing it. but now in the middle of the process of applying for nato membership. and when this angers, turkey, all of a sudden, the government appears to be taken much more seriously than what they did previously. the tech is foreign minister said that the countries would not allow the burning of other religious books. is that correct? all would swedish north also allow the padding of the bible. i think it's open to interpretation. you would have to say that given that they say this about the koran will then automatically they would have to say the same thing about the bible. they would have to say the same thing about pride, flags, et cetera. there are anti hate speech laws in this country, but it's very much, you know, it's very hard to predict what way the courts are going to george and certain in

certain ways yesterday. i mean, there was probably more police and journalist there yesterday. there was spectators, and yet not one of them saw fit to arrest paula down for any sort of heresy or any sort of blasphemy whatsoever. so would appear to what he did yesterday. and not only that, he had to apply for permission to have this little gathering yesterday. so in to every extent possible, it was entirely legal. nobody intervened from the police and that, and of course, 2 of the turkish embassy was the most provocative thing. so you would imagine that in the morning of a bible will be equally tasteless when equally legal under swedish freedom of expression laws as they stand and are interpreted of the moment. actually when you hear this, i mean it comes down, doesn't it? to simply being a clash of values, would you perhaps agree that turkey has over reacted to something that's happened in another country that abides by different laws. he event hardly attracted any attention and to be honest, received a relatively muted response from the rest of the islamic world. laura, of course, we have to evaluate the issue in 2 different fields. because 1st of all,

the location, the rent has taken place in front of the turkish m measured. it is that really freedom of expression. the 2nd issue is this one, because i think respect horticultural diversity, respect to all the beliefs and religions should be also a part of putting them as well. because if you're directly start attacking to other religions, they are holding books and other things or put fits, et cetera. then this will go on with all the drama activities incidents as well. and this will be automatically extremism in every aspect. as we already have witness, for example, in france and in other countries also. so there is a very, very chance to balance here. we're,

we've been the freedoms and the security as well. i think the put them over person should and at the place when the political by another person has toddler. so you should be very careful about this one. of course, the baseline on the ground for to come together together mutual agreement is should be the legal issues under regulations here. but the interpretation of the regulations may be different from the perspectives of 2 countries. and of course the to, to get real interpreted. we didn't throw in her window, and i think she's right at the moment because turkey, nobody will attempt such an issue in front of the swedish embassy to burn a bible or something like that. then it will not be as if putting them up expression you do say though, that it's risks of provocative acts following on from the so in the argument perhaps though, is that anchor is response to this act has caused much more of

a coverage of this event. than that was initially that would that mean that was a protest of a counter process of some $100.00 people who peacefully opposed what this man was doing? it really didn't gone and much of a media coverage. it certainly hadn't sparks any copycat incident. it's only turkey's response to it, but has kept the story alive. i think we should do it in this way because each a little flyer may trigger and other one in europe. so i think the government should take for questions which may have a potential to feed all the extreme. it's actions for other communities because in every calm pre there are a lot of immigrants and, and minorities. so you have to protect the rice also because you this start to be a clash between the cultures and religions in sweden as well. for example,

then on the one site you stumble, cobia or anti stomach moments on the other side, some from them ignorant groups, other actions may start and then this may, you pay to other actions, destructions, grotesque, et cetera, everywhere. so i think the governments should be very careful about this one of how much attention this is when government actually paying to turkeys, criticism of this event, wanting to for a sense of at the moment, laura, just because of the natural application and because of the sensitive nature of those discussions you mentioned in your introduction there, but the status of the kurdish people, i think at turkey, is trying to maximize anything that they can get from these negotiations before it eventually does allow sweden and finland to join nato. but ottoman made a very interesting point there about fire on this small fire, maybe leading to bigger fires. one of the things that fire needs to prosper is of

course oxygen on by giving paula down the oxygen of publicity. we're actually sort of feeding the fire of what he did, again, histone this many times before. and it hasn't provoked this kind of response. in fact, people in sweden and around europe and maybe even in the muslim world, have tired of 40 was doing. i was speaking to a school child recently tried to born a coronets i to school at one part and the local kids, you know, to try to provoke local muslim, muslim kids into maybe doing something violent and they just ignored them. and the protest didn't happen in the end. he didn't even burn the book. but by us coming and having this discussion today, it's almost like we're giving it a credibility that it doesn't deserve. but it is something that can be used in diplomatic leverage, because tortilla holds all the cards here in terms of, you know, there may be, let's describe the most, the last barrier towards fin on the sweden entering the you. and if they think the something diplomatically or politically to be gained by using the situation with paula down on the burning of the koran outside the turkey at the turkish embassy there. well, maybe that's the sort of well within the political right to do so. but as my up med

mentioned, it goes risk finding the flames even further. okay. say sammy, let's look at this. let's look at the extent to which takia is using it. step plastic, leverage at the moment and the timing of its protests against what's happening in sweden because it was of course, as he mentioned in the introduction, protesting as well against a pro, a kurdish protest that hung up an effigy of underwent by his feet. it's kicking up a lot of fuss about this at this particular junction. why? what is the several factors here? first of all, is the domestic political factor, obviously, or no one is looking to our selections. he's looking towards political survival. and showcasing turkey is a strong actor against islamic phobia. across the world, especially in the western world, is part of as a domestic image i made from korea, criticized in the forgotten genocide of or against ro here in me and mark, calling out his lobby and is, i'm phobia in europe. that's a key part of his brand and foreign policy. edition. turkey says position within

nato is probably why the uniquely yes strong in terms of leverage is tricky, is indispensable mediator now between russian ukraine and also as a back channel between russia and the west. i was seen that there bear fruit with blanche grain export deal, which probably the most significant diplomatic achieve been so far. the turkey feels that as long occurs to play with the west as trying to squeeze that sweden as much as possible in terms of making concessions on extradition of cards and other other suspects that it wants to bring back home. i'm glad to what extent would you accept that is tuck, installing on sweden, joining nato. and why is it here? i think there are also 3 different sites on parties initial on the one site to look here, which is a member of the nato. and who holds a visa card in her hands. the 2nd is sweden and i think in sweden, also there are different parties. i also some parties i think are opposing for the

membership of the student nato. and so we see these kind of incidence which may provoke the angle to, to care and which will support to the kids or position for the membership of sweden to nato. so we can see these kind of koran burning or an adult once popular hanging or those kind of protests then events in sweden. so i think in sibley then also there is not just a consensus on the membership. on the other side, we have the tours parties on the other nato members like united states of america, which use, for example, turkey. turkey has a request for f, 16 fighters as the leverage. and so they say this is, these 2 issues are totally different. but i think cowardly, this is being used by the american congress and american minister reporting affairs

as a leverage port to, to, to, to accept the membership see them. and i think when the time passed, we will see that the negotiations will take on this grant. and i think united states will agree to sell those port, the f 16 fighter certificate and to cable accept sweetness membership. tonight i think ok. ok. so that's an issue between the u. s. and turkey to bring it back to sweden, tucking them onto the extradition of a number of people. who are they? ah yeah, yeah, here normally it during the summer time, typical request, it took to 3 people done but now it later increase the number to 4216 a week from p k, k or organization. they are embedded through p k. k terrorist organization to elk beach put on glen organisation. 7, put on other left being terrorist organizations on 7 are included in these smuggling and type activities. so totally 42 people are asked to be

handed over to turkey or as being the members of a different headers organizations, or has been involved with different crimes as rock, trafficking, or smuggling, et cetera. and most of these pico k, there is organizations managers who were involved in planning or attack activities at which a turkish people suffered a lot for more than 40 years or are among them. so he'll know sweden didn't take any step about this one. let, let's, let's find out why is that this festival fan of the sweden, except the turkish accusations against these 42 people. and secondly, how likely is it if a tool that it will extradite them? there's a bit of a difference there, laura, between what the government thinks and what the courts think. okay, so the way the courts make their decision is very different or the way the government might, might make their decision that their decision. and you have to look at the cases

all the cases and the extradition cases to come before the court. what people are accused of and not least if they can expect to form a fair trial when they do a get to turkey. if they are extradited there on how will they be treated? will they be subjected to torture? again, will they have the right to a fair trial to a fair defense and so on. and that's been the sticking point in many of these extradition cases. as far as i know, some have already been extradited and there are many more cases going through the courts. with the sticking point has been that idea of the fair trial and whether or not they will be subjected to torture. when they get steel. the thing is that sweden has long had a reputation as a sort of a guardian of human rights. it's a place of money, a dissidence, of course, you know, from pin a chaise chilly to iraqi dissidents to iranian distance, throughout the last 405060 years and the, maybe the whole post war period. so it has been the sort of a, a have and if you like for people have different political persuasions. and again, i'm sure the kurdish people would describe the people being described as terrorist by turkey as their freedom fighters. so this is the big debate that's going on, and again, they have a very,

very high ceiling for this kind of thing. it comes back to freedom of speech and what people are allowed to do politically, i suppose, in the post 911 world in the last 20 years, the war terrorists and the war terrorism has been thrown around an awful lot as country seek to position themselves diplomatically so again, the swedish government cannot be seen to try to influence or intervene with the court system. those 2 things are entirely separate and indeed it goes hand in hand with the way they treat freedom of speech as well. that these things should be independent of one another. samuel, how sensitive is tac heat to sweep in support of the cards we'll all imagined? is it what the nato membership and hinges on? well, i see that it certainly is a factor obviously. so turkeys also tend to take retribution against countries that it pulls and arms embargo were critical of turkey's ass conduct against the encourage say, in syria, so peculiarly the 2019 operation piece bring events up. and that's probably kind of

a delayed retribution for that. but i think that if obviously, and there have been a fractious history of the relations in sweden and turkeys is wanting can. but if the need a membership issue was on the table, it probably wouldn't have been as significant as the bargaining chips. i think that the need a membership is really what's driving it, but there is and she attention and disagreements over turkish palsy and sorry, and sweden and a general up and down that relationship and bilateral nature since 2010. yeah, i just want to come across it. hello. my apologies. i think it's very important as well to, to, to see the corridors perspective in this because these are people distance who came here from various parts of kurdistan, who feel that they were offered to sort of a haven here in sweden. i know all of a sudden that they're being sacrificed at the altar of sweden's application to nato because turkey wants to react in this particular way and does more than a 100000, maybe people of kurdish extraction here in this country. and they feel quite betrayed. i'm that in turn is sort of adding to both local political thing, but also the geopolitical situation with turkey is how is this question going to be handled? and yet again, this is

a so often happens in this part of the world. the chords are in the center of this storm. i've been talking has many weaker says since that it shelters within tacky, it wouldn't extradite them to china. is that not the same situation? a big look in that perspective. i think it is normal for companies to have different perspectives, but they should try to have an empathy in this case. for example, if anything was organization in sooner than makes bomb being attacks and then to, to get it starts to be a safe, helen for them. to leave, what might sweet regular swedish schisms a thinking about this one? so the situation is more or less the similar, but i think handing over the people or the pining them as the freedom fighters should be left to the of course course. and the evidence should be evaluated in the industry, not the political realty site who will be handed over or the portrait. and of course,

we didn't this manner. so we have to respect for the decisions of the course. we'll put both countries and also the sweden side should ask for the evidences. and if it's proved that these are directly involved in such terrorist him in silence, then i think the precaution should be taken legally in this way. but this is, this is, shouldn't be a kind of threat for the putting them up all other courts leaving. and so we don't show the misunderstandings should be prevented as well. on the, i think in this perspective with the 1st day that it suits took care to be stalling on sweden and finland membership to nato. as it tries to navigate a relationship between ukraine. but more critically with bruton we will see a very difficult question actually. maybe for him long now it'll be to kids getting more and more positive because in finland i think we have less members because it

took care of asking only for 6 people. but for some reason it is getting difficult every day because we see the protest and the put on vacation is increasing. actually, i think some organizations are trying to do disruption or harm to this progress, the membership of sweden progress to the natal as well. so we will see because the russian war youth rate has turned out to be a real threat for some of the european countries. and that's why they do not feel comfortable for themselves. and toward a coupon many years protected and has become the prompt line at the southeastern part of the natal. that's why i think did today to, to get also wants other countries to understand tiers, shakuti threats and evaluations as well in their perspectives about what we should look at in district. i just want to get the last point to you. do you think sweden

and indeed, and then we'll get granted membership and they told by turkey without them having to sacrifice the moral superiors, their moral superpower. why does have a question? i think that there may be some sacrifices that are made on the edges like selective traditions or selective. i like that which are done by the courts. i think in general they will probably be achieved. first of all, there's a tremendous amount of political will and i both leaders in land to get this done. they've abandoned neutrality. sweden is concerned about a russian threat to the baltic states and even to got land. the land is equally concerned about the russian product. give rocketed naval drills the gulf and land and moreover issue those can bash old rats. sweden and finland are actively cooperating with nato on army ukraine. participating in cybersecurity exercises and also creating and integrated the baltic sea front and even if turkey's war that's it. but that it or it's been land right now. freedom if it might have got to join together. but i think they alternately will join a lot of pressure from other nato states to make turkey gave us a tricky, it's

a marginal concessions and hungry as expected. next month, the oats for fast weakness and went to join the alliance. i think that they're probably going to join us in bass will be resolved, hopefully in 2023. okay, it's been a great discussion. thanks very much all august for joining us today. philip, her kona ultimate has a and some you romani and thank you to for watching. you can see the program again any time by missing all websites onto 0 dot com. and for further discussion to go to while facebook page at facebook dot com full slash ha inside story. you can also join the conversation on twitter, a handlers arts ha inside story from me laura kyle and the whole team half by for now. ah

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