the word spread in the last 2 weeks. it's become a front runner. now it's nominated for best picture. so i think it really comes down to what films are actually seen by the academy members, an anomaly than what else is seen by most academy members. and when we really, i think it's very rare that a big money maker are, is you know, winds best picture that that's, those are more rare. it's very often a film that you heard great things about from critics that didn't make a lot of money. that gets nominated and then it'll start to make some money, but i don't think, i don't know. i think they do influence each other in that if the public is seeing something, i think sometimes it'll make people see it. but then i think also sometimes that makes members not what to give in to lucia. say the populace versus the other way around. ah,

so this is out there are, these are the top stories and ukraine's president says he's taking powerful steps to root out corruption. 5 regional governors have been dismissed. the deputy defense minister has also resign falling an allegation that his department overpaid supplies for soldiers food. poland has formerly asked germany for permission to send his arsenal of german made leopard tanks to ukraine. berlin has been under increasing pressure for being reluctant to approve delivery of the tanks to 3rd countries. have all slightly see. i have already perished. partner countries that have lepper tanks for food, that operational to begin the training of ukrainian forces on these tanks. there is no question at all where this is possible and desired dogwood. we're not standing in the way it is. of course we can only do this ourselves once we have made a decision on how to deal with the leper tanks. that child, my mom, no g as i thought, i hope that this answer from the germans will come quickly this time for us because the germans are delaying being evasive and acting in

a way that it's difficult to understand or to me as we can see. very clearly that they don't want to help you green, which is defending itself to a greater extent from margaret brown. a report by the committee to protect journalists shows 2022 was a deadliest year for media workers since 2018. $67.00 journalists were killed, including out 0, serene abu eichler, who was shot dead by israeli forces. lebanon's, former prime minister huston de up, has become the most senior official to be charged with the deadly beirut port glass . in 2020, an investigation was reopened on monday, after a gap of more than a year. the country's top prosecutor is also being charged since the prob should remain suspended. at least 7 people have been killed in shootings in the us state of california. it happened in 2 locations in the city of half moon bay, south of san francisco. authority say, a suspect has been detained, becomes just 2 days after another mass shooting in los angeles. left 11 dead police

. 3 people have been killed after residential building, kaleisha north, the indian city of look now dozens more of it trapped in the rubble. of course, in the class is not yet known. all right, world state with all the headlines, we have more news coming up here on out sir, right after we visit inside story. we understand the differences and similarities of cultures across the world. so no matter where you call out to sara, we'll bring you the news and current affairs that mattie al jazeera can universal jurisdiction stop. impunity, human rights group has filed a lawsuit in germany against men miles, military leadership, accused of genocide, war crimes and crimes against humanity. but can this lawsuit change the situation on the ground? this is inside story. ah

. hello there and welcome to the program. i'm nora. kyle human rights group has filed a criminal complaint in germany, accusing men, maza, military of genocide. a group of survivors from ethnic groups across man mar, have built the case. and what active is say is a show of unity. that once seemed unthinkable. the trial brought my fortify rights is also accuses the military of crimes against humanity and war crimes over at crackdown on wrangell muslims in 20162017 security force is allegedly carried out mass rapes and murders doing what authority is called a clearance operation. matthew smith is the head of fortify rights. he explains who the complainants are and why this case is so important. it's about half of the

complainants in the case, survived the rank of genocide in 2016, 2017. in about half of the complainants had survived or witnessed mass, atrocity crimes that occur that occurred since the crew on february 1st 2021. so it is a diverse group of people putting their faith and hope in german authorities that there may achieve some measure of justice. the investigation at the international criminal court is very important, but that focuses narrowly on force. deportation is a crime against humanity against hangup. so it doesn't cover the mass atrocity crimes that are unfolding on a daily basis. we're seeing massacres. village is getting burned down. people getting arrested, tortured, killed every day. and me and more. and so with regard to the case at the international court of justice in the hague, that is a case that essentially deals with disputes between states. so that is focusing

exclusively on state responsibility for the rank of genocide. so in other words, there is no individual criminal liability that will stem from those proceedings at the i c j. the very important case, the gambia has done a great thing and bringing that case, but it is, it is very different from what we're, what we're pushing for in germany. now, it's important that we recognize that not a single perpetrator from me and more, despite a lot of attention internationally over the years, not a single perpetrator has been held accountable for these heinous crimes. oh man mas ruling john to has played a long and brutal role in the country, and 2016 and 17 campaign of a trustees by the army on the muslim or hanging that hundreds of thousands thing across the border into bangladesh. well expressed outrage on the general's face charges of genocide at the international court of justice mixed with also under investigation at the international criminal court. and 2016 uncle who she was

elected leader in the military brief experiments with the kasey that ended in 2021 . on the 1st of february, sushi was one of thousands arrested when the military seized back power from the civilian government, which enters violent crack down against all opposition. has since united many of the countries diverse ethnic groups against the military rulers. ah, well, here are our guests and in london, christopher gunners, director of the men mar accountability project. also in london, toby cabman, lawyer and co founder of the guernica group. and joining us from a location where not disclosing for his safety is dr. sasser spokesman for the national unity government of men mar, and just a note that our team has reached out to him in mars genta but we did not receive a response. so let's get the discussion going. and chris, in this case, in germany is just one of a number that have been filed in

a number of different countries. do you support it? because your own organization has filed a separate case in turkey, has it not? we absolutely support it to be very clear. i'm used to pull the word older. it's like 4 to 5, right? like toby's organization, get me and others who are basically closing in as best they can using all instruments, both of the legal incidents on the jump. so yes, you're right, there is a case in argentina. that's now this case in germany. we have a case in turkey. and just in the next day, i will be testifying to the indonesian constitutional court about the possibility of bringing a case in indonesia. and we are also in conversation with legal experts in the philippines where we think the prospect for a case of trial a very good. so we're hoping to do more work in 2023 in acton. but to be clear, we absolutely support this case with for by right, we hope that the german prosecutors will open not just a structural investigation,

but we'll move to an actual investigation. it's not clear that they will, but we absolutely join the call by 4 people rock by rights, and i'm sure by danica and others, the more pressure we can bring on the jump to from legal work, the better you organization approach that you fuckers office in turkey, back in march. what's happened since then? well, i'm pleased to say that the chief prosecutor example has accepted a file. he has sent it off to the ministry of justice in ankara. they are very actively investigating. and the good thing about these investigations is the jump to knows that being scrutinized. yes, the wheels of international law turn very slowly, but they do turn going back to the i can trial the nazi in israel own through the work in the full use flavio, which still carriage management lots of it's actually in the hague and onto the

lambda genocide. so i can understand that some slight cynicism behind the title of your program, the idea that you know will be accountability. we sit. absolutely. that is why we're all working. there will be accountability, it will take time. and in the mean time, the juncture which is clearly committing genocide, it's committing crimes against humanity, torture matter the most appalling airable bob and of civilian targets, without any due respect for international law that relates to the protections of it is all about the note. but this works of them, notice that they are being scrutinized that being investigated. and we hope we pray that some day they will be in court and ultimately out of has happened to you just love the places and others. they will be bands up in prison, which is where they belong to be 2 questions are initially, do these cases brig about accountability 1st and secondly, why launch them in multiple different countries?

thank you. well, let me just support and endorse everything that chris is set and i think it is important to to, to adopt a multi jurisdictional approach in cases like this. and i for one think that supports the initiative in germany. i think it is an important advance on ensure accountability and quite often we look at different jurisdictions that may be victims in, in those jurisdictions that may be suspects within the sort of the, the refugee pool. and so quite often you will look at the opportunities to present themselves just today. we've had the, the switched federal prosecutor seeking to bring charges against the national in a matter that we were involved with over the years. and so it is, it is significant and it does have an impact when you have

a vacuum of accountability in the jurisdiction in the country where the crimes were committed, you have to the elsewhere. when there are limitations on international jurisdiction, you have to look to universal jurisdiction in order to to ensure the victims have a voice. and that is the process which is aimed holding these individuals accountable for, for the most precious crimes. and the situation in mind, mom with the the plight of the right range which have have been subjected to as chris is quite right. they said, i policy all of genocide. then of course, you have to look at whatever opportunities you can. and germany has certainly shown itself in the last couple of years as to be appropriate for him in relation to the holdings syrian regime, tickets accountable holding isis members accountable. so germany has increasingly

advanced as one of the countries where there is a process where accountability can be pursued, but that is happening across europe. and we shouldn't limited just one jurisdiction . but toby, do these cases not risk, undermining the work of the international court. the intentional criminal court and the international court of justice, which also have cases new investigations in to me and my underway would be the whole, the whole practice something commercial criminal court is, is based on a process of complementarity. and so it, it is, it is complementary to the national jurisdiction. and quite often as again chris as, as quite rightly stated that the wheels of international justice and as, as, as, as you had said, been general justice move very slowly. sometimes you have to, you can't just rely on international accountability. and if we look at the court in particular, it has very limited resources to, to,

to dedicate to cases of this kind. it is only going to hold accountable the most senior military leaders, military political leaders who are responsible for the genocide. and so that has to be a compliment tree process in order to hold those potentially slightly lower down the chain of command accountable. and so just focusing and waiting for the international criminal court to conclude their investigations and, and when charges is not a sensible strategy when you're looking at a conflict or a situation such as this, dr. sasa, let's take a step and read a chris, of course, lord, if we bring a dose of who i think will be into more, i'm about to say i'm to add and build on what toby has said. the british government and over and dozens of other member states referred putin and his aggression against ukraine to the international criminal court. and if the british government,

the pen holder at the security council in new york wanted to refer the mamma juncture, not for the security council, but file actually to the i c. c. they could do it. and groups like ours, mac and others are pushing very hard for the british government and others to do that. they've not done it and they have not given us a decent explanation of why they haven't done it. the nation you to government ought to saucer and his exit ministers have made a declaration that they accept the jurisdiction of the court. why hasn't written? why have other member states of the room statute that governs the international clinical? why haven't they made a reference to the court justice they had for putin and i'm showed up to suss? it will have things to say about that. let, it won't accept. let's bring you in at this point. why do you feel that the u. k. another you and member state haven't referred the gym to terean's national criminal court. i think it is a very pardon of fastly dead. we have to stop our desert

genocide ongoing on a ground in my country boma and as it clearly you j. u. s. u, an ard or international committee has these power to stop these crime against humanity is crucial that the country like you gay, an e u, and other international free world support and support the case of genocide, a gains. the military generals in miramar support can be a case in a seizure and referee these military to nurse in miramar into i c c. and we absolutely support and corporate, fully wit. i sir. tradition and i see says tradition, and also univers or traditions. and i think is a very orderly that will, the,

will note that rece absolutely support. this is the case be filed against genocide or military muma in germany or to reduce and process. i think germany is the country that can understand the pain and a sufferer to people of miramar, given the nature of hibler and atrocity, have committed. the same thing is happening with genocide or military generosity. muma. if we take a step inside miramar with you for just a moment, because there are a number of human rights groups and lawyers inside the country who are cooperating with the german authorities. in this case, give us a fence, give us an idea of what sort of danger they face there. are these a very poor am that the lawyer on human rights and any sensible or lawyer understand? we are talking about schumann being we are talking about parsons individuals. these

v themes of the military's are a mother, a father, sisters, and brothers and dia, shipping. and these military generals, dom miramar, have been caught me. think these crimes against humanity, with com clipped impunity. they must be hold accountable, and i think is a very potent dad. we bring the maximum pressure to the military and then sucks and down with coordinated and targeted. and then these a military, we have to know the door, understand what's the understand action is a time for you to not know community to take action and bring justice to the survivor. and these give himself to no site. chris, what evidence is there? if any, that the general's care about these cases that are being big brought about the mute

you said earlier that the case is closing in on them. but do you think they feel that because they're certainly still acting as if they come with impunity? there is some evidence all be anecdotal, minute line. did you know the pol pot hammer an house issued to his army to his staff? a directive of about 6 months ago. more address to which simply said do not cooperate with the mechanisms of international justice. so that's one, i think very clear sign that they are aware that the work that groups like cars are doing. the other thing i have an anecdotally and it said that mental lying is frightened of 2 things. first of all, the buddhist notion of commer that he might not have a good next life. and the other is criminal accountability being banged up in the hague, like other dictators of our aid. so i'm, you know, there is some evidence of that, but i think the important other thing to say about this is that the confluence of

international, this legal work and public advocacy is very interesting. because either at the united nations general assembly, for example, which has been considering the credentials and has rejected the re credentials of the johnson unanimously on 2 occasions it matters their that groups like anika light map light sorted by rights of doing this work because it plays in that it to the political dynamics and ultimately what you need for success with prosecutions. yes, you need the legal process to be right. but what helps that enormously is a public environment in which accountability and justice actually matter. so the energy that you create around these cases actually has that effects of it's not just a question of the john to ignoring it. actually set an international mood, if you like, that these people are isolated, they're being pursued by justice. and that has knock on effects in all sorts of

other areas. and i'm a butler, i'm not going to turn to seed to the council of despair on what universal jurisdiction can do. i and others are solute, the determined that we will find justice to victims of it might take a long time. but the lesson of you just the lesson of rwanda is the people who commit these crimes will ultimately and can alternately be held accountable. christie, let me directly onto my next question, which i was going to give to toby. i mean, this notion of justice has come up time and time again by doc sasa, by chris, can universal justice, bring victims a sense of justice in this fit in the sphere of universal jurisdiction. it's a very easy question to answer. yes, of course. and it has done in a number of respects. i mean, if we look at the, the syrian cases in germany, we look at what's now being done on the gambling case in switzerland. we look at

what our group had done as far as the salvador, in case in spain. so there is, of course, there is, there is a history of justice being delivered to the victims. and of course, you know what one person considers to be adjust resolution is not the same for all victims. i mean, the fact that cases are being pursued and accountability is being pursued is significant. and that does have an impact whether that results in an individual ultimately be convicted and sentenced by court of law. of course, that's what we will strive for, but it is the fact that we're not forgetting what has happened and what continues to happen in my mom. when we look at all of the conflicts around the world, now attention changes. the attention of the community is very limited

and isn't that we don't forget what's happened. we continue to strive. so i think it's, it is important for 4 or the groups involved to continue to push for capital t when the only route is presently universal jurisdiction. i mean, the thing that we have to consider as has been stated, so the, what's happening at the court justice is not individual criminal responsibility. is state responsibility for breaching be convention against genocide. what's happening . i've been to the whole criminal court. obviously, we wanted to move quicker, but that is only going to look at and it can only look at and false people taishan because of the fact that the, the un security council who is deadlocked in referring any situation to the internal criminal court, the only jurisdiction that they were able to, to establish was through forceful deportation from, from my mom, into neighbor, bangladesh, which is a state party to the right statute. so the limits of jurisdiction of the entire

screen record means that we have to turn to universal jurisdiction. and what is particularly encouraging is when you see groups working together, when you see fit and working together to pursue justice wherever they can find that it has significant. don't go to that. you've fled to me and ma, feel life when the military are launched at scale on the 1st of february and 2021. you left behind family, you left behind friends who are persecuted. what does justice look like to you? well, it's totally important because just imagine the only crime i have been accused of call meeting was freedom of expression. i stand up for democracy in a freedom and human rights in my country because of that, i'm a proud that the military charges me with high treason that carry that sentences

for my colleagues who are not, who have been very unlucky, arrested, and executed and made killed at dia got me thing the donation of crime, if one of international community in my country, mamma, at these crime against humanity we're talking about is thought the li, unacceptable. and i mean this has been there for our people, my people, 75 years. follow him go brothers and sisters. 50. yes. how many movie? cade's these military generosity in burma will be along to enjoy with complete paternity. because of dad, just because of i said are for democracy. the are back a, the not only me but my family, my mother was sick with cancer states for and she was chase by the military.

and he said if you live in this village would be kill and it was totally unspeakable cain and soft free. they have cause to my family. and now again, not only to my family now, we are talking about murdered 3 paulson, innocent been killed in the last 24 months. more than 20 paulson in nor send people are been arrested. more to pad the 5 posen churches, schools, hosp yours, villagers, house are been bar because they talk about freedom added talk about human rights. so just this is absolutely mother's to us. and this is the international community there can bring it just is of my people, the mars cut off all the fine us, all the weapon that is applied to the military. now there were end, at least stop these 1st crime against humanity. chris and the one minute that we

have left. why have the world not taken more action? let me hear stories such that out to that as a combination of both politics and racism. we've seen with ukrainians that europeans, the white, the christian, they're not brown and not lisbon, that comes a long way away. so i think 1st of all, we have to deal with them hang up. and the whole question of mamma. and secondly, the politics, if it were further up the agenda, if countries like britain depend, hold up in the school council could actually motivate, mobilize some political support in the international community. there is support that it just needs to be mobilized. so yes, racism and politics if we can deal with those 2 things, the people mamma would have had justice a long time ago. well, let's hope they will still fit with the processes that are in place today. thank you very much to all our guests for joining us, christopher on this, toby, catherine and dr. south them and thank you to for watching. you can see the program

again anytime by visiting our website. that's al jazeera dot com and discussion to gauge well facebook page. that's facebook dot com forward slash ha inside story. you know that join the conversation on twitter, a hand list as a j inside story from me laura kyle on the whole team here. bye for now. the ah, with a decade of change, the 970 in the middle east and north africa in the 1st 2 bathrooms,

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