seems to be just inter are done. yes, i think she took her absent at every stove. i haven't covered an inch, the shootings and all that sort of thing, but she just lost him. i go towards cmj. i know what this job takes and i know that i no longer have enough in the tank to do it. justice. last thursdays announcement was one that few saw coming an unusual acknowledgment from a world leader that she was burnt out vicious abuse oh. on the streets and online res, concerns over her safety. she's received death threats and so her child, the next election will be in less than 9 months. which means hipkins may not be in the job long, especially as opinion polls show labor now trading the conservative opposition. our journey is leading office at a time of her choosing. although she'll remain in m p for 3 more months. and at 42, she still has plenty of time to ponder, a new career,

and the one she's left in he from the bottom of my hand to the greatest privilege of whom. adrian brown al jazeera, wellington, ah, your charges they are. these are the top stories. ukraine has said to receive advance combat vehicles from the u. s. and germany sources of told al jazeera, the washington's ready to approve the delivery of m one abrams tanks, by lens expected to authorize exports of leopard to tanks. natasha butler has more from kish will, and germany has been hesitating for week say whether or not to send it flat the tank saw allow other countries that have them to send them all. so look, germany has been worried about sending the wrong signal to moscow of escalating the war. all of this tied up with germany's military past,

basically in world war 2. now berlin has also said for many weeks now that if it wants to syntax, it would want to do so as part of a wider coalition. particularly with the united states, bangladesh as main opposition party is called for nationwide rallies the demand action to curb high fuel and food prices. it wants prime minister shake cassini to resign, and the caretaker government to take over and elections are held. rescue as a searching for 10 people missing. after their ships sank southwest of japan, the vessel was carrying a crew of $22.00. when the captain sent out a distress call during a storm on tuesday night. who and his military has fired the congolese. jesse says violate of the country's aerospace video, posted on line, is to show the plane being hit before it landed in goma and eastern democratic republic of congo. recent advances may by m. 23 rebels in the region have increased tension between the neighboring states. a powerful storm system has swept through

the southern us state of texas. a tornado, also damage electricity lines, and the city of houston even more than a $120000.00 people without power. okay, you're up to date. those are the headlines. the news continues on our desert after the stream stay with us alone. the u. s. a whole was of interest to people. all right, well this has been going on for a number though, with kathy use of the whole story from an international perspective to try to explain to a global audience how's it could impact the airline. this is an important part of the world and how to do this very good at bringing the news to the world from here, [000:00:00;00] with hello and welcome to the stream. i'm at my tablet dean on today's show. why are women still so poorly represented in news media? take

a look at this statistic. in 2020 women were featured as the subject and sources of news stories only 25 percent of the time. and that figure was found in the latest analysis of more than $30000.00 stories around the world in tv, radio, print, and online sources. so what happens when women's perspectives are left out of the news and how does it fit into the bigger picture of gender equality? well, you can join in on this conversation with your comments and questions via our live you to chat. aah! here with us to talk about how women are seen and heard in the media in perth, australia, katherine shine a senior lecture in journalism at current university in nairobi, sarah materia, global coordinator at global media monitoring project, and in new castle. in the u. k. we have karen ross,

professor of gender and media studies at new castle university. ok ladies, i'm so glad that you're with us and you know, just to address sort of the elephant in the room. it just so happens that this show topic happens when our usual host, who has phemie, okay, of course. who is it woman unlike me, should usually be in this chair instead of me. so, you know, we're mindful of that. i can promise you there won't be any man's planing because you are the experts. so we're here to hear from you. let's get straight to it. i want to ask you, sarah, you know, we heard that that statistic, 25 percent of the time. i mean, how would you underline or highlight the real problem when it comes to representation for women in media? well, the problem of linda representation of women in mainstream news content will most likely be with us for the next 3rd, 3 to 4 generations. so we're not going to see a parity in our lifetime. and in fact, her,

what we have seen over time is that the piece of progress towards gender equality has remained vaguely, shall the needle towards gender perry. t has moved on be 8 points in 25 years, so really i the problem has persisted and has remained stubborn over time. and i just like to see this thing better. but in fact, the probability of i irp isn't keisha and of visibility in the news is even slim, awful women who are, who come from minority medical as groups such as racialized in men, migrant women and older women. i met perhaps i can give an example. yeah, please, henry, is that a please give us, give an exam? yes. in the u. k. for it, for instance, the likelihood of under presentation more than doubles for ethnic minority women in comparison to white british women. no, i appreciate you giving us that example because you know, this is not just about, you know, one aspect, but things can tend to be compounded when it comes to women, minorities, as you've mentioned,

i see that as you were speaking. i. catherine was nodding, so i just want to give her a chance sarah, to jump in here. catherine, what did you make of how sarah sorta framed this issue. this problem i saw you were nodding and i want to know, you know, when we talk about inclusion and then representation, those are 2 separate issues. a why are they important to discuss we, we need to those statistics that the g m m, he has highlighted so consistently over time showed that women are under represented. and that is, that is a huge part of the problem. but the way that women are included in the news is also very important say, including minority groups, including marginalized perspectives, is really important, but also trying to avoid the stereotypes that often come with, including women in the news say, including women and always referencing them as mothers for example, mainly including women to a personal opinion instead of as authority figures. i'm karen you,

you know when you this and then on what, what's been said so far. i'm curious, you've been working on this for many years and i know that you frame it as marginalization as well as stereotyping when we kind of outline the main issues. why those 2? i think that i done that. let me give a, a couple of examples. and what i'm the welcome to in, at the moment is looking at women, owed to women within the media workforce who have been maneuvered out of, of that jobs because of well for, for a variety of reasons. none of which ought to do with that competence of the professionalism. so i would totally agree with, with the point that kind of sarah's been making. and in terms of the, you know, we have to take a much more into sectional approach is not just about women, it's about b, a women with particular characteristics. and indeed, you know that there's also issues about older people more generally being seen, both in, in, in front and behind that the camera and in terms of nissans and,

and representation. but the point about juxtaposing marginalisation with stereotyping is that it's, if you dig research around kind of gender media, it's actually quite difficult to try and an ad allies an absence in the absence of women. you can only really look at where women are present to where women are present. they tend to be exactly as katherine's mentioned. you know, they are often seen as people who will give expert who give a public, a personal opinion be, you know, part of, you know, the, the, the public. we don't see women as experts. and again, just thinking about cove it, you know, we know that kind of health has been seen very much, is a domain of women. however, if i think about the u. k. news media and i, i guess it's the same everywhere else where you would expect more women's voices to come in as expert within a kind of health context light cove. it, we just didn't see that. you know, when we, when we looked at the gm and p in the last, the,

the last iteration which was in 2020 right. in the middle of the pandemic. we, we looked specifically at cove it 19 stories as opposed to yet more general new stories. and again, we just saw it, we see the same patterns repeated. and the question we have to all surely is why is that is it didn't have nothing to say, right? because women are not expert. and the also to both those questions is no, no, of course it's not. and then you know, that's why we're discussing this issue. and because you brought up the corona virus, i want to get to some of the comments that are coming in on youtube in a moment. but before we do, sarah, when we talk about the corona virus and use coverage specifically of the pandemic, we know that it skewed heavily to mail experts. i think it was what one 3rd. yeah. one 3rd of sources quoted about the cove in 1000 pandemic were women. i mean only one 3rd. and i'm wondering, you know, what it, what is that actually mean? i mean, you know, it why, what is contributing to the problem?

is it, are you, are we able to identify sort of the 2 biggest factors in your mind, sarah? well actually it's interesting because, and we found that, oh, well i for the longest time that we have been analyzing the science and health stories they've, i, they've always been at the back of the news agenda, occupying about 70 percent of all the topics in the news but to the corporate maintain health crisis. ah, the proportion of stories doubled, 17 percent of the news agenda. and as her, as her news becomes more important gain salience. oh, we've faith that to women, i been relegated to the margins as, as the people who are subjects or the news or sources of news, which is pretty interesting. i've been there to know withheld. yes, i'm sorry. i'm only interjecting to say, it's maybe not surprising,

but it's astonishing that, you know, there's that correlation where, you know, when women's visibility before sort of the attention of, of the pandemic on health. they were higher, more visible. and then once it became popular, all of a sudden they were less miserable visible what's, what's, what's driving now? it's interesting, it seems, lay, cur, you know, as stories become important and on the news agenda. busy women, when you are the other, the, they tend to be really guitar to the margins, and i bet only it's, it's hard to explain that. a, for example, i doing the health cray sees it is women who are the caregivers or women who are present in a, in trying to mitigate the impact of depending on the elderly, on children, on, on the, on general populations. yet when

a news report as us was forcing for x by the opinion. so women why? i think out about half of like 26 percent of, of those were interviewed as experts who are present her sources here in n, as health specialist to our women. and when you look at the real world statistics, almost 50 percent of those work in health care, right? are women? well, so it is really astonishing to find. yeah that, that, that disparity certainly invites a lot more questions. are one of those, i'll put you karen. i mean, in the u. k, i remember anecdotally that the briefings were largely delivered by men, even though, as we just heard from sarah, you know, i'm sure there were excellent qualified women in the field doing a lot of the work. why is that the case in your experience, anecdotally, and why is such a little progress progress been made? well, i mean, not even anecdotally, i mean the, those there's, there's 3rd evidence to, to show that and even, you know, meet your organization's themselves. mean, the guardian did a really interesting piece of work and

a couple of other kinds of news news. jameson, towards, out on this, something similar in terms of looking at where women appeared in those cobit briefings, which were regular over at the very long period. and the over overall, i think that, you know, at least one study looked at something like, you know, briefings over 9 months in a very few women. now arguably, it's not because that want really in x, but women, jenny harry's for, for example, who was a key person who did actually appear occasionally to kind of go to be part of the, the, the, that the panel of 3, which is what we, we tend to get in the u. k. so it's not that that women were entirely absent but where you expected women to be talking and briefing the public that raised really it was very scarcely visible. however, on the other hand, other kind of media organization other countries in particular, if i just think about new zealand,

new zealand in particular were much more proactive in putting women in front of the, the public glassware or other countries on the, on the, on the grounds that, you know, it's, if we think about women's communication style, particularly during cove, it, there is a and not necessarily cut a gentlest up, a different scholar style about she commuting health messages. right. so it, a lot of the research would suggest that where that did happen, that was much more that, that the public, the citizens, you know, who were being addressed by. ready these arguably slightly better communicators actually understood more about kobe and the a how that, how the bars was working right. but, you know, but parted just to get but to your question, like, why, why do we get what we get me? one of the reasons i would suggest, and i can say this because i'm a media academic, i don't look in a newsroom. it seems to me that partly it's because it's much easier to go to the usual suspects for. and if you already, as a journalist, if you already have

a really good relationship with a particular set of experts, with particular such a politicians, you are going to go to those people. and so if we think about it might even be unconscious bias or just habit forming behavior as you're saying, you know, i mean, i think so much of human behavior and i'm not trying to just dismiss it that there's no massage involved or what have you. but yeah, i think it could be just a product of habit, couldn't not. but hockman. i mean, i would just so he just let me just in the, i mean i, i would say, unless they saw enough this face i'm conscious bus. because for me, my experience anecdotal or otherwise is most of these, but is there anything but i can try in some ways we use this term, but we should just be say, is conscious, right? there is miss such a good, almost every sex, it's various races. so it's almost as if, when you say unconscious bias like you're, you're giving people a pass, if you will, said to perpetuate you're, you're totally and you're chunky during that, which isn't to say that there isn't unconscious bias. you know, clearly, you know,

they're all sorts of ways in which we're operating, which are, you know, part of a kind of cultural dna. i'm not, not, not signed up, but i am saying that yeah. it's not like you don't know that you're going to a mad to out yet again. yes, another man here spouting on. yes. yes, another which isn't to say that they don't have interesting things to cite, but wouldn't it be so much more interesting to have a range of perspectives from a brass the right, you know, the spectrum of humanity, right. and i think, you know, often in the media, i forget me sir. i just want to jump in here with a small anecdote. i mean, for a long time, i've said, you know, when discussing the media, the democratization and media, which, which hasn't fully sort of self actualized, if you will, that, you know, there was a time when the only voice is deemed to be sort of authoritative. incredible. we're older white men, and i think those legacies take a long time as we're witnessing to change, let alone completely be equalized. i do want to mention no, if i well sir,

i'll put this to you. i was going to go to catherine. but so many people in our youtube channel, i mean talking about bias and talking about and i'll just put it straight to you. i mean said saying the question is when will women be satisfied when they abolish men? completely from the conversation. and then we have maybe a slightly more useful question from our, of a k o, 988 saying how can you say women are under represented in media when there are literal quotas and incentives to hire women? they replaced casts and movies with women, even though the films perform poor. so needless to say, there is a lot of sort of massage and i for lack of a better word and our comment section, i don't know thera, do you wanna address those comments before i come to you, catherine? oh, well well i can t at this sir. and it, is that a, to a large extent or to some extent, you can see that the issue is socialization. carrying, alluded to the issue of culture. and in many cultures is particularly in the globe

without context. mean many cultures. oh, women are socialized, girls and women as lazed are not to be present in the public eye in the public domain. true. and therefore it becomes the, you know, even more difficult for them to, to be present to be visible. but these and on us here on news organizations are newsrooms to make the effort to go out and find this women and get them to, to speak. you know, one thing that we found in our research is that for the 1st time in since 1995, there was a jump in the proportion of vo women who were thought for expert opinion between 20152020. and that could be perhaps because there, oh there, you know, news organizations have taken this critique on board. and there have been some, some have taken this on board. and, and there have been a mushrooming of,

of various initiatives to create directories of women experts. so perhaps it could be, well, you know, one of the reasons that we found that her, that jump. sure, sure. and let's jump to another expert arm catherine. i wanna put this to you. i mean, i don't know if you want to comment on some of those comments in the youtube chat, maybe, maybe it's not bad and productive to do so. but i do want to ask you specifically, i mean, are women then, you know, we talk about socialization. are women then less likely to see themselves as experts less likely to want to be interviewed on t v? how does that sort of play into this on, you know, i know there's already been such an erosion of trust when we talk about the news media in general. so how does that work in it, in an internalized sense? well, i think the most interesting thing that i found for my research is that overall there is a very high degree of willingness to be interviewed with the women that i have interviewed myself or are done through c o. m got their opinions,

re survey research. so i don't, i actually don't think willingness is so much of an issue. i do think that up with lots of women ah, lack the confidence that men sometimes do have the nervousness is a factor. and so generalist, i think need to be aware of that. and women do have some reservations about up appearing in the needs and some of those reservations, i think a justified. and so i think it's really important that journalists are aware of those things and really try to mitigate them and make the, the whole experience as positive as it can. they, i think the, the, the initial approach for an interview is really, really crucial. ready and part of that is sort of d, mystifying, the whole process explaining exactly what the interview entails, what sort of information the, the generalist is looking for. so sort of, i'm sort of taking the perspective source through the in me step by step. could you

really helpful and i'm giving out and i think if you give women a ch women a chance they are, they do want the opportunity to speak. they want the sort of the, the validation and the credibility that comes with that. and i, they deserve it. i mean i'm, i'm really shocked at some of the responses that you're getting on you in a 3 are you change the when you look at the statistics, they say it's like clear that women are under represented. this is, this is obviously a problem that needs to be addressed. and why shouldn't women's voices being well, i mean, what, i don't want to, sorry, i do. and i also share, you know, there are some other comments like santa yes me and saying women's lack of representation. and media basically means the exclusion of half of the population. and it's obvious. and in order to develop a country, it is important to include them. we also have people who are saying, you know, that we need to be focusing on this in the arab world. see less, larson saying al jazeera must turn its critical lens on the arab world. more often

that there's great disparity there on this issue. i think it's just important for giving me catherine, for interjecting but i do want to just frame, you know, women in conflict zones or what have you. i mean, it can be tricky. you know, for some women in certain cultures, there is this association for better or worse. this pressure that you must be modest, you must not speak a gardener, a lot of public attention. i mean, these are pockets of the worlds, not the whole world, but you know, so culture obviously plays a role as well. and i'm wondering sarah, if newsrooms continue with this business as usual, what's the real fear in your mind? just to put it briefly? well, for sure, i think there's going to be an erosion, a continued erosion of trust in john lithium at the moment we know that journalism is in crisis. we've heard about media organizations closing. we've heard about many cutbacks in, in the, in newsrooms. and that a region of trust leads the groups that are marginalized,

to found their own media stations at the margins, which is really not what we want, right? we, you know, we all need to belong to the mainstream. and we need to, we need to have a media that participates a take its role in building a democratic society. right. you know, in being appeal of democracy in ensuring that all voices. and i, and i see that there are, forgive me. sorry, karen that you were nodding and sarah was making that point there. i do want to share with you that we have a youtube comment coming in from jeanine thing media, especially as prejudice against older women in media. we spoke about earlier. if you're a minority and a woman and it's compounded as well as for the elderly before i come to use her for me, karen, to answer the question, i do want to include one more women's voice. may be familiar to those of you who watch the show. it is none other than sammy, she sent us the video comment. take a listen. please change

a parenting portion to us at the stream. i think the question should be, why is it not as important to every media organization? we what town? several years ago that if we are not representing half of the humans in the world, we are not doing a good job, is that every time we sit down, do a show. we ought to see where the women in that conversation, what expertise can they bring to us on the street? sometimes you will see more within the men. we are balancing out the universe. it is a mission that we are so proud to be on and it is never over. you can never sit back and think we did it this year. we'll do it again next year. we have to keep checking. but the importance of this is not just to represent women, but once you start to look at under represented groups in the media, you thought see many other communities who also need that platform and what she stopped. you can't stop and it should be noted that, you know,

there are in 202260.74 percent of gas on the stream were women. that's up from 54.9 percent in 2021. we've exceeded our gender balance school for the 5th year in a row. and just so, you know, if you go back few years in 2018, we've made a public pledge to never finish a year without at least 50 percent women guests. and it's not just family who is usually the host of the show. but many women who work behind the scenes tirelessly to put the show together and, and you know, i wonder karen are watching some of the questions that from you was asking. what comes to your mind? i mean, looking forward, where are the solutions, what should be done to bridge this gap? okay, so, i mean, i, i love what i me saying and you know, well done elders is the stream of, you know, being, being in the vanguard. i mean, following on in some ways, teed bbc's efforts with a 5050 project, which again they that starts in 2017 doing media monitoring around gender. an us by

me says, now they're looking at other kind of us. but so looking at disability, the looking at close in that they're looking at minority other racialized minorities. so media organizations are doing things. but can i just say that one of the, the key area that we really need to kind of focus on the gen listened students. because what if we can actually encourage our students to think about issues around equality and, and sexuality while they are still journal journalism students. while they're still developing that croft before they become, you know, get, get into a new east room and necessarily become a acculturated to the norms of that particular newsroom. if we can get them thinking about what, how they want to be job is what, what their kind of moral or ethical code is and get the right thinking about these things. now while the students and just to say again, if i don't think about my own student, my own students at nico, so university,

very great. we were running out of time. i've been working. when i say is that we have been working with the bbc's, 5050 projects, and the more that we could make that into face between jonas and students and nice rooms, we might have some hope of producing jun generations of john that for who actually this is part of that day care and i'm gonna have to cut you off there, but that is certainly an operation. that is a good way to end this. so this conversation one that's going to continue here at the stream. that's all the time we have for today. i do want to thank all of our guests today sarah, catherine and karen for joining us. any more conversations here at the spin ah ah

ah ah ah, ah, ah. african stories from african perspectives, machine dogs to songs of home music, no ma mancha. now when i did picture with children a she short documentary from african film, maybe from lawanda. and bookkeeper, fossil superintendent to meet with did is what he sounds of home

and the coach in africa direct on al jazeera. we understand the differences and similarities of cultures across the world. so no matter where you call home will, but you can use in current affairs that matter to use our diet. define who we are. but who are we? if we don't know what we're eating in a disturbing investigation into globalized food fraud, people and power reveals long hidden scandalous practices. the def, infiltrated international wholesale markets, and supermarket chains and asks, what's really on our plates. food in glorious food on, ouch, as era. ah, south africa's main opposition holds riley's across the country over power cups