for the next few days, but for the south of this a lot, quite a lot quieter for places like italy as well as greece for spain and portugal. a lot cooler, as i said, but we are going to see things warm up over the next few days. especially in madrid, ah, from the al jazeera london broadcast center to people in thoughtful conversation, i got much worse racism when i was at the university of oxford, which really scared me because i was like these people are going to be in positions of power with no host and no limitations. empire is the reason that we live in a multicultural society. part 2 of pfizer, shaheen and adam rutherford studio v. unscripted. on out, his era outrage in the us after video is ad of the killing of tyrene nichols by 5 police officers in memphis. they're facing murder charges just 3 years after the

killing of another black man, george floyd made headlines. what more can be done to reduce police violence in the us? this is inside story. ah . hello and welcome to the program i'm fully by t bought. a road side saw by police in memphis leads to a young black american man losing his life after a brutal beating by offices, tyree nichols name is added to a long list of victims killed by those entrusted with enforcing the law. and protecting the public condemnation has been led by us president joe biden. it repeats widespread outrage over other incident such as the killing of george floyd by police nearly 3 years ago. why do such cases continue to reoccur?

what can be done to stop them? and what role does racial diversity play in u. s. law enforcement? we'll be asking our guest, these and other questions in just a few minutes. but 1st found as here as gable elizondo reports from memphis, tennessee, on the killing of tyree nichols a warning. his report includes images, some viewers may find disturbing. oh, the images of tyree nichols, a young black man being beaten to death by police. a day after that video released, people in memphis still trying to grasp what they witnessed. one man told me he was shocked by the police violence. one police officer was holding terry. why the other one was swinging through like a look like like i say the like a safe and remove the way he was putting through his face. and he turned around and he did it the other way. they just, he be hailed and he's about to fall and they live in the back of the take more lives in one part of the video,

nichols is in pain. none of the police officers or paramedics appeared to provide help that left ron sins. angry. it was the constant beating, and air. then you had the fire me in. that was as out there. you were supposed to hell. he was lying to me. i was landed, said for die for no one day at their job. you beat him to death. you beat that, that man, the innocent, young boy here in memphis. there are still some people that have yet to watch the video. but even for many of them, the beating death of tyrene nichols has left them deeply affected and turned on watching it at some point i think, but i did this past day or 2. i've been sort of bracing myself or it's unacceptable . i really, really hope that justice is served and that people understand this sort of

thing is not a free incident. it doesn't happen. rarely. this is america. at this point. we gotta do better. tyree nichols is now dead and the residence of this city where it happened. now seeing his death up close and asking why. gabriel's hondo algae is eda memphis on tyree nicole's, is the latest black american to die at the hands of police. some officers have been jailed, others haven't faced charges. george floyd died in 2020 after being choked by a police officer kneeling on his neck. his death sponsor nationwide protests and calls for reforms the same year. brianna taylor was shot dead by police who stormed her apartment using a so called no knock warrant. in 2014 eric garner was choked to death by officers. his killing was caught on camera and in 1991 rodney king was severely beaten by 4

los angeles police officers. film of the incident led to 5 days of undress. but these are just a few, among many incidents of police brutality and excessive use of force. in 2022, nearly 1200 people were killed by officers in the us. the highest annual number on record. black americans are disproportionately at risk studies show. they're nearly 3 times more likely to be killed by police then white americans. ah, well let's bring in our guest now for today's show in baltimore is debbie hines, former assistant attorney general for maryland in new jersey is eli emani, a black lives matter activists and co founder of black liberation, collective. and in new york, alexis hoped for jericho director for the center for criminal justice at brooklyn law school. thank you all for being on inside story. we appreciate your time, our,

before we delve into the issues at hand here i want to ask you each one of you, your reaction 1st after seeing and watching the video of tyree nichols death and, and beating by police as ali. let me start with you. what was it that shocked you most about this video? i'm probably one of the many oh black people in america who have not watched the video. ah, emma, as i've been watching the videos and seen images of black people realized or killed by police officers and vision nancy's and all that trauma has been living in my body. and over the past few years, i just can't take, you know, seeing those images anymore. because not only am i seeing black people being killed by police officers, i'm also seeing black people not getting justice for brutal murders. so those images and those on videos don't do anything to motivate me. i don't need any more

motivation to know that people deserve justice. and black people deserve to live, right. and i shouldn't have deals for stormy to action is any one of the complexities of this case is the fact that it was 5 black officers who are seen beating tyrene nichols and who've been charged with murder. how much does that add to the anguish? it doesn't add to the anguish for myself. what it does is add to the argument that the police is a racist institution. and that it doesn't matter if you have more diverse police officers. a black fist hurt no less than a white face right there. a black foot doesn't hurt any more or less than a white foot that police officers are violent institution and they go move on with their black or white. and these are things that we have to address in america, debbie in baltimore, let me come to you. what was it that talk to you most about this video? what was your initial reaction to it?

so there is not one word that i can use to describe a video. i did watch all 4 tapes that were released of the video. i did not want to watch it, but i was called to watch it and to comment on it. so to say it was horrifying is not enough to say it was disgusting, is not enough to say it was agreed, yours is not enough. there is no words to describe it. so i like to always describe things more in a picture format and what it really look like. if you were watching a movie, but this was a real life, this was the life of a young man. it looked like that there were 5, whoa, said were attacking an animal. that is how vicious this brutal beating was. but in reality, these were individuals who were attacking a, another individual, another human being. and so what the video showed is man's inhumanity to man. it police brutality against a young black man having no regard,

not even seeing him as a human being, because to see him as a human thing, you would not have had 4 police 5 police officers kicking him right, beating him, hitting him with the times in the head and then afterwards and one officer had kicked him so much on the video that that officer was walking around limping after he had finished kicking him, the other officers that were just stopping him the head at the end of it, they just propped him up on a car, as if he was a rag doll, a piece of trash. there is no way to describe how i felt. i am still outrage if that's the word you want to use. i am outraged by what i saw. ok. alexis in new york. what did you make of what you saw? of course, the video shocking beyond words has left so many unanswered questions, including why the cops use such force on tyree's. nichols who didn't appear to be

fighting back. why they felt compelled to confront him twice. why they didn't help him even when he was lying down. what was it that outrage you the most when you saw this video like sally, i did not want to watch the video and we have all been inundated with these videos . and what they communicate to us is a real devaluation of black life. and again, it does not matter at whose hands it from. so here we had 5 black officers. my 1st thought in watching the video was the pain and anguish unimaginable that mister nichols family is going through his loved ones. he was a son, he was a brother, he was a father. and it's not just that this video exists. it's a human being and it's their son. it's their brother and it's their father who was on that film. so my heart does go out to them. i teach criminal procedure

adjudication to about a 100 students at brooklyn law school. and we have had several conversations at my institution about the need to provide information and support for our students. and many of my students intend to go into the criminal adjudication system that they want to, to provide and reform the system. i teach another course in abolition. these are students that, that want to know the tools and the skills on how to decrease the footprint of the carswell system, the decrease the footprint of the law enforcement system. and so i watched the video to be a resource and a support for my students who are going to be the actors to shrink to shrink this adjudication system to shrink this law enforcement system valley. you talked about trauma earlier, talk to us about the trauma, the black community in america, when it comes to police in a specific instance. so of tyree nichols,

he was allegedly stopped for a traffic violation. what could have gone differently here? a lot of people, especially overseas asking why he ran from the police. what goes to a person's mind in a situation like this when they are stopped by police? a black man in america. this almost trauma on there goes in cities on police interactions, even myself as a black person live in america. and i'm sure many black people have the same experience that when we are driving our cars and we see on police with their flashlights behind us, even if the cops aren't, you know, but to pull us over a horse or racing, right. even if we have our id, even though we have our registered vision in our assurance, we're still scared. even if we know we're doing a speed them in or the end, you know, go through any stop wires that we had that moment of pause because we don't know that the police officer is going to pull us over. we don't know what's going to

happen if the police officer does pull us over. are they going to think that we are dangerous, suspicious, already gone to say that we were wishing for a gun. so a very early age, even before we even learn how to drive our parents or petitioners wouldn't do when we get pulled over by a police officers. and these things are the histories and experiences of black people in america that our experiences were police are not always the same as white peoples i'm experienced with pull these, that we are seeing is images of police brutality. so again, and imagine that my, my students who are 10 years old, they been alive, or there was born before on treyvon. martin was killed. so throughout the whole life while they had been seeing is treva mar in mike brown and eric garden and all these things happen in the black people and black people, not getting justice. that does something to an individual to live, goes on and on. indeed, debbie, the 5 memphis officers involved in this incident were charged with 2nd degree

murder. and they were charge, it would say much faster than police. have been in pos police killings. why is that? why is that? is because that's had the way it should have happened and all the other police cases were black individuals were killed. it's not like this, this is the operation. why did with it? why do you think it didn't high? in the other cases? it didn't happen in the other cases because it's partly erases system. i mean i'm going to be quite honest about that. i'm a former prosecutor, so i work day in and day out for 5 years with police officers. and so there's no reason that police officers should be held to a higher standard than any other person when this pal, any other person in america. but indeed they are. and there's always been more than just enough to bring charges because to bring charges is a very basic standard. it is just to bring charges that there are the word is

probable cause. and what that means is if you're looking at it and you're just looking at it solely from the position of the prosecutor, is there enough to bring criminal charges in the case? and we know there's 2 sides to a case, but that's the criteria for actually bringing charges. and in all the cases that we've seen that we've mentioned in the countless other ones, there has been in most cases probable cause, where you have a black person who is doing absolutely nothing. who is in their bed a sleep at night, and they end up being killed. you know, you've never had any of these charges. a lot of these cases have not been charged, but i would think that most of them should have been charged because most people have not had a weapon. they've not had a gun. they've not been doing anything threatening where the police officer, though the officers always claim that they weren't here for their lives. that's the buzzword that they use. but in this case, what i'm trying to say is, justice was done initially. we don't have full justice or accountability,

but this is the aberration but as been cramped. the lawyer for the family said, this is the blueprint going forward of how it should happen going forward. and i say, how it should have happened in the past. alexis, you, 1st about this, is this going to be the blueprint as debbie says going forward because they were talks, of course, of forms after the death of george floyd reforming the police system. you know, making sure that they were there was more diversity when within the police force, but none of that has happened. why, what, why we seeing these cases and incidents of police brutality against back americans happening on and on and on and again, without any changes. sure, and i think a major difference that we have in mister nichols death and the response from local officials is that since george floyd's murder in 2020, there has been,

as we have all witness, massive public protest, massive public demonstrations. obviously that was happening right in minnesota. that is happening all over this country all over the world. and i think part of this new blueprint that been cramp is mentioning, is directly impacted by the fact that you have massive public engagement. i started my practice as a federal defender in tennessee. most of my work was focused in memphis in shelby county. and what this community has experienced within the last year is a drastic fee change in elected officials. and principally, it's steve moore. roy, who is the new district attorney general of that community and he ran on platform of criminal justice reform, his predecessor amy wire. i highly doubt that she would have quickly responded to these this event with criminal charges, against law enforcement officials. and she was elected out of office. and so you have an engage public in memphis. this is a community that is majority black. this is

a community that demanded to have accountability and transparency. this is a police department that has been under federal court monitoring since the 19 seventy's, late 970. you have a brand new police chief, the 1st black female police chief c j. david. these are individuals that are being held to account by the public and without massive public demonstration, which is what's been happening in memphis for years. local organizers demanding that there be accountability. and so that's, that's the see change that you're experiencing in this community is not necessarily that something has changed among the prosecutor's office or the policies that they institute if you have the public. but then you find that you mentioned the case of, of tennessee there. do you find that diversity makes a difference in policing? not necessarily. and we see why with with nickels mr. nickle, brutal murder, the hands of 5 black police officers. baltimore is the city. i know debbie knows is

intimately that they've got a lot of black leadership, critical math of blackmore enforcement officials and i want to return to some things. eli said, is that this idea of the institution of policing is about severe nation violence control, regardless of the race of the individual officers are constitution allows law enforcement officials to use lethal force. and again, it does not matter what race the police officers are this unit in memphis police department, a scorpion unit? yeah, we've been around with them. yeah, exactly. their entire purpose was to patrol and unmarked cars. these police officers were not in uniform. there were a black hoodies, they had scorpion seals on their unmarked cars, and they pulled over drivers for a minor traffic violation. and then escalated those stops,

some demonstration of probable cause, right to then figure. there are other crimes occurring and asked that that was their whole purpose and we see the way that laid out. and mister nichols who is engaged in no unlawful offence. all right. and is any, let me come, come to you and i will come back to you in a 2nd, debbie to, to find out more about this issue of diversity and whether or not it helps. but zoe, as alexis talked about there, this seems to be like a systemic issue that can't be sold with a quick fix. what do you see as the solutions ah, whether short or long term to end police brutality in america? yeah, i think that the only way that police balance will no longer exists in america is if police doesn't exist anymore in america, that we have to continue to push this idea of the funding, the police in the abolition of the police, and the realization that the safest communities in america don't have more police officers. they have access to better resources. if asked the better jobs, actually better on housing assets,

the better education access to better recreation for the kids. and these are things that may safer and strong communities. so when you say into our communities, you want to make a safer, why didn't you give it more police officers and say more resources? if you want to be our communities safer, you should give them more, more resources, better school. so there are kids can be reading out a great appropriate level more better housing. so our families don't live and crumbling, roach, infested on housing. these are things that's going to make a safer, and these are things is actually going decrease our proximity to police and will decrease our pricing to police. we decrease the chances of experience police violence. debbie, you are a former brought him, baltimore city prosecutor, is and he says it d funding the police is a solution. if police are not the solution to crime, then what is a, do you agree with with him that the funding should be a priority? i think what should be a priority is dealing with the problem with the police,

and that is systemic racism that has been going on for generations and generations and generations going all the way back to when black people were enslaved and there were the policing patrols to go after black people and is that legacy in america that has continued until today. first off, they can get rid of all of the white supremacists that are in many of the police departments across the u. s. that is something that can be done just immediately at the drop of a hat. and then in terms of the call tra police, i mean the race is called tra, police is, is what happens to out in the freddy gray case, which was the young man that was killed in baltimore in 2013. they got a lot of notoriety, the police officers involved in that case for both black and white police officers . none of them were found guilty. and so it doesn't matter, in my opinion about racial diversity, because what happens within the culture of police officers is that it's like a club. it's like a boys and girls club. it's back of fraternity or sorority and everybody wants to

fit in. so the black officers, the asian officers, as was in the george ploy case, they just adopt all the white races, attitudes i don't fully believe in the funding the police. but i do believe that there should be a more holistic approach that many of the things that the police departments are engaged in doing sucks that she is pre textual stops, which means traffic stops where the person really hasn't done anything illegal. they may not have a, they may have a missing tail, right? they may not have a sticker, it may be something really very minor, but they're not being stop for drunk driving or reckless driving in the majority. those cases, most black people end up being disproportionately killed and that doesn't happen for white people. and more importantly, black people are less likely in these stops less likely to have any illegal, contraband substances or guns. white people are more likely that just supports the

fact that the police do not need to even be engaging in those particular stops in there's a whole list of activities that the police do not need to engage in too long to get into in this segment, right now, so i don't believe in totally discipline funding them, but i believe that a lot of the activities at the police are engaged in a lot of the calls that they make. they don't need to even be making them. we need a more of a holistic approach and just using baltimore as an example, this, there is $3300000000.00 that's used to jail black citizens in the city of baltimore. if we just use just any portion in the percentage of that, to put that back into the community, that was what will make us safer. it is not make the black community safer by having to police patrolling it day and night. and basically, antagonizing black people shine in terms of the system here. the one thing i do want to make clear is as a former prosecutor, as

a black woman. during the pandemic, i was sitting in my car drinking a cup of coffee, and a police officer pulled up behind me with flashing lights. and you cannot imagine how my heart must have been palpitating back and forth. and i knew i wasn't doing anything. and it ended up at the end of the day, he just went around the i was evidently blocking a part of a parking lot, but i should not have that fear that something was had happened to me for drinking a cup of coffee because a police officer pulled up with flashing lights and that is black america. thank you for sharing that experience with us. alexis, let me come to you. debbie believes that de funding the police is not the solution that racial diversity in the police force doesn't really matter. where do you stand on these issues and how do we solve this problem of race, of, of police brutality, racial brutality in america, long term and short term? yes, so even though debbie um doesn't necessarily wholly supported the funding please,

what i did hear from her that she believes in justice re investment, which is this idea of taking funds away from the cursor old system. what i heard her say is to take money away from the imprisonment of black baltimore ends and to re invest it in other other resources that would be more life affirming that would actually support black life. and i think one of the issues with lee is in this country is our heavy reliance on police to fill all sorts of social service reasons and, and all sorts of occurrences that we don't necessarily need police for. we don't need police to carry out suspected traffic violations. we don't need police to report to wellness checks. we don't need police to show up when there's someone in having a mental health crisis. and so part of fixing the policing problem in this country is decreasing our reliance on policing. and when we decrease our reliance on policing, we don't need to fund them to the same extent. police do not go around preventing

crime. they are often responding to crime, or in the instance of mister nichols case they're engaged in pre textual stotts, which debbie had already explained. this idea that people are not engaging and necessarily unlawful behavior of minor behavior. i, i imagine all of us on the panel who, who drive a car have engaged in a minor traffic violation and it doesn't need to result in a death sentence. and so what you had here was a deputized ban of law enforcement officials who had the sort of green light from the department to go around and essentially harass motorists, to shape them down to see if they had engaged in other acts. as you know, what's ironic about the scorpion unit, which again has been disbanded, is that the mayor of memphis, mir strickland was touting their performance and their success just a few months after they were originated, which was in late october 2021. so here we are still dependent pandemic early 2022

. you had strickland say they have arrested over 560 individual. i don't know how many of those arrests actually resulted in criminal charges being filed and actually resulted in some sort of conviction. and so with that communicates to me that you had these, this group of individuals that were driving around, unmarked, are actually harassing men fans at ross. and he will engage in simply driving in the streets of us. we will leave it there. thank you so much for a very important and an interesting conversation. thank you. any money? alexis, hogue forger and debbie hines. thank you very much for taking part in this discussion and thank you as well for watching. you can always watch this program again any time by visiting our website at al jazeera dot com for further discussion. go to our facebook page at facebook dot com, forward slash ha inside story. and of course you can join the conversation on twitter handle, is that a j inside story from ne, fully back to going whole team here in doha. thanks for watching bye for now.

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