whether to making his way across blanca, easing into the southeast of in the air. so some nasty storm still rumbling away here as we go through thursday, punches through for friday, slightly dryer behind ah, the african stories from african perspective mint condition, select wireless, cause you with. ready short documentary from african filmmakers from booking a important to teams as it comes into something that i can be causing that paint. and she has africa direct on algebra, stop plundering africa. resolve says the message from pope francis as he visits 2 of the continents war torn countries. what impact will his visit have on these

states? and what future does catholicism have in africa? this is inside story. ah. welcome to the program. i'm the whole rahman, the pope's visit to the democratic republic of congo, comes as it struggles to contain worsening violence. eastern congo has suffered unrest for years, but fighting is intensified and displaced to half a 1000000 people since the resurgence of the m. 23 armed group, the pontiff will go to sal sedan where civil war and conflict between rival ethnic groups is taking its toll on civilians. it highlights the instability of regional peace and how it's affecting citizens. the pope's visits aim to highlight this, but does he have the answers? malcolm web begins are coverage, is the 1st time since 1983 that have come to visit democratic republic of congo.

the country in africa with the largest number of followers of the roman catholic church, about half of congress, nearly 100000000 people members fronted with you to visit in the middle of last year, but he had some problems with his knee. so the trip was phone, the initial plan included a stop in eastern congo escalating conflicts that resulted in not being dropped from the program. here in the capital can shatter. he's spoken about the forthcoming election which is due to be held at the end of this year. he said, it must be free, fair and credible with, he'll say, pointed a finger at the west for what he said was a poisonous greed for congos, vast mineral wealth. he said with fueling congo, come malcolm web for inside story. now the catholic church has significant influence in the d. r. c. were about half of the population identify as roman

catholic is also critical of the countries politics. in 2016, the church was at the center of protest against the then president of capella. he was forced to renounce a 3rd term in 2018, deployed. observe as to molly to the presidential election, saying he wanted to ensure credible results. critics accused the church of meddling in congress. politics. in 2020 peg. francis net president. felix tissue katie to improve relations. and now the head of the roman catholic church is in kinshasa. ahead of elections. this coming december the well for this i'm joined by august thinkin schanzer is christopher lam. he is usually based in right. he's the correspondent for the weekly catholic newspaper, the tablet and pennsylvania usa is massimo forgive lee, a church historian and professor of theology and religious studies at villanova university. i'm in chicago. is stan illo, a research professor of catholic and african studies at depaul university. a very

well welcome to all of you on inside story and thank you for your time. christopher can just begin with. you can show serene faith is an incredibly important part of life for those that believe in a, in a higher spiritual guide. what does the vatican hope than to achieve from the pope's arrival in the d. r. c. and, and later on in the week in south sudan, while you say faith is very important to people in democratic republic of congo, about half of 90000000 population, all catholics. and the pope is here to, i think festival support them in the, the mission of the church in this country. he's calling for peace because these countries, but the country republic of congo and south down at the need lacerated by civil wars that are ongoing. the pope's in very strong, the exploitation is going on in africa. so i think it's really both

a trip to support the, the church it in these countries and also to call for peace and to try and bring peace. where has clearly been the terrible civil wars in both countries. indeed, it will get into the intricacies of all of those difficulties. those countries, as we continue without track muslim if a galeon, pennsylvania, i'm sure theologians cross will flesh the catholic theologians and analysts, will be closely watching the pope's visits into these countries. and what he has to say will reverberate amongst the catholic church. it will reverberate because those in right now is going through a very delicate process called the process, which is a process of consultation all catholics through. and thanks to their bishops locally on the major issues that are now at the center. all the date of catholics on women in the church, on gender, on every be carefully exist on and to some,

all of these questions happen to be divisive. we think of our season also between the western world and some african church leaders and, and also many african conflicts. and so this is a less visible issue, especially because of the african given by paul frances to the social economic situation of the congo and of africa. but this is something that i believe in the background. let's bring it in a stand a low in chicago. this particular pope has made it his point to highlight the unfairness of the global south, and he's focused on africa a great deal through his papacy in various addresses to the public. the d. r. c and south sudan might well be happy about this, but i suppose africa generally will be happy to see the pope. oh definitely. i mean, you can already see from the enthusiasm of the people in

how much this visit mean to our people come in as it is in the post called the moment you remember you're in the. ready it that many people predict that there will be taken dead bodies of the 3 of africa. many people they didn't want this to go is too dangerous to go. the bay does like. the continuing, as my vision of africa though they spoke, is break in the cycle of my vision by believe it in the continent of africa. and i think that our people are so happy that the pope is turn in the gaze of the world last model. this continent that has so much potential, that often is it and marginalize big. my di met walter

and in global politics. let's go back to maxima here in pennsylvania because this visit was, well, plan does. most people visits. ah, but the recent conflict that we've been hearing about and seeing the east of the country has certainly changed the tone of what he's been saying. how does this impact on you might say the public at large and also the catholic diaspora who's watching paps to see whether the co, the pope can make a difference. i believe the catholic church and the papacy and it's implemented are as made a difference already in the, in the most recent years in history of congress. because that's, remember the previous paper visits happened under the dictatorship. and so now that it has been a complicated democratic transition, but that is a difference. so device again is always very well informed on what happens on the

ground as one of the best diplomacy is in the world. and so i think that the strip, every modified by what's happening in some area. but i do not think that this has been a surprise for, for those where plan this trip which are usually very well informed and a big diplomats. and so i, i think this will modify the core message. opal stress is which is what we have heard yesterday, ill already doing the 1st math fun time. just bring you in here because obviously civilians. certainly the public in the d. c. and south today will look the guidance from the spiritual leader as he arrives. but again, spiritual leaders like the paper ways don't really want to or try not to interact and interfere in the politics of a region or a country. but this pope is very vocal about things that you know, touch a nerve,

don't they, with politicians. and he's, he's not being backward and coming forward when it comes to the issues of the d r. c rights. and of course, the pope presents the country both as a head of state and as the leader of the catholic church. and so in his role as head of state 100 gauges with the leaders of the country. and he address from yesterday with a, a powerful message calling to the end of the exploitation of africa. and then as the leader of the church today, when about emphasizing the, what the church can do for pete about saying that that can be no justification violence. anyone who, who is a calling himself a christian, he said, an engaging and violence must lay down there. um, so he has that jewel rolled. he can utilize on the paper visits. of course, he doesn't have specific policy proposals that he want to see implemented. he comes

as a person of faith and he comes to try and change the hearts minds of people. that's the main resources he has his disposal. but we can see today there's a 1000000 people turning out for mass. sun is obviously huge. soft power influence spiritual influence to the, to seek see and want to deploy. and of course, the catholic church and the public of congress has been very involved in trying to ensure the free and fair elections of transition to democracy. and when he goes to south to down, we're going to see similar soft power influence. when he goes with the archbishop of canterbury to try and moderate the church has gotten to try and get the warring leaders to agree to peace. so i think that's how you approach these things. okay, let me just bring in stand in chicago because is this where there is a slight problem, certainly with the catholic church and that the, the pontiff,

as we've just heard, you know, has this jewel role. he's the head of catholic church, he's also a head of state. and yet we have his senior bishops and clergy in a country like the d. r, the to being very open in, in being involved in politics. you know, we put that in inverted commas, overseeing elections, making sure that they all witnesses, you know, pressurizing a former president to relinquish a breaking with tradition of the constitution. that's all history. does this create a problem within the catholic church where the pope feels uncomfortable with the way his clergy are behaving in as a say, politics and inverted comments in the d r c? i don't think so. you must understand that. but fries, this is for decentralized vision, is one of the grid as reforming book that i will stay in time. that is that local

b sharp and not simply the beat up is we're talking about this, the ology of the people. though he's not a clerical clerk, collies, someone who just want to remain on the level of what be, show that d n. what pre wayne though in for tele to t, one of his key documents about social trans for me. and he emphasizes this aspect of korea different tiny g now, and we've been to get the broken bonds by the muscle in society. drive a by was violent light, vision of a t and on me to get that operate in a country like d. r a. see that as we know, is a country that is potentially read california, the largest economy in the world. so they both is going not to impose better right

at the list. then the cries of the people and the vital, arise the agency off the people, especially the ordinary for people my exist. i really know america. people who are staying outside and to paraphrase they're not always seen as so it is about meeting the shop. then the judge lead, as he's also meet the young people concentrate, the interested i'll talk about the mineral wealth and the people who meet. i want to get back to mathematically here because obviously, you know, as stan isla has just said, you know, he wants to try being peace to a region that so traumatized and listen to the people of the woes. but this is a holistic approach, not just the d r c, but also its neighbors. and i wonder, is not involved in this paypal visit around about 40 percent of rwandans are catholics, massimo has has the vatican mr. trick by not involving rwanda as part of their itinerary, because then that is where the main crux of the, of the,

the problem lies at the moment in the region is that this relationship between the d. c and rwanda, and the proxies that are fighting in east of the country. that is certainly true. and this is something that some members of the, of the clergy and some missionaries in congo have spoken about openly when a pope travels. and when a pope does a huge job as, as pastor of the diversely catholic church in that trip abroad, a, he has to balance 2 elements which is on the one side, the prophetic message apiece. and just these reconciliation and thinking truth to power and on the other side, the other element, imbalance, ease, ease, diplomacy. so here what chris lamb was saying is very important that the paul of

travels as a religious leader, the leader of the catholic church, but also aids as a head of state. and so all these elements army and carefully considered when these beaches are drafted, when they are deliver earth, the people, the po francis meets, or what he says and what he gonna say. one final thing is so easy, easy cause important to pay attention to what a brit pope doesn't say. and these are our silence as that are usually are picked up by both the listeners. and so we shouldn't expect a correlational line from a pope will travel in one country against a neighboring country, especially when there are inter catholic issues the air. but this is certainly something that has not been missed by those were organized this trip. and also by those who are falling po frances, there actually, it is a prophecy, a and,

and it's a diplomacy at the same time in a very delicate. it is a delicate balance, isn't it, christopher? because obviously, you know, he knows what the problems are. you know, a congo has some of what the wells, which is deposits of diamonds, gold, copper, cobalt and tonsil and lithium. your international players want those resources add to the mix and insurgency across board. you know, skirmish and fight that's ongoing and has been ongoing for decades. why does the pope start in trying to reconcile or try to help reconcile these various disparate groups? oh, yes. very complicated, political situation here. what i've been struck by so far the trip is the pope has not held back in i didn't define the problem was the injustices that you see in the, in the country, which she says are, you know, he doesn't name names. but he does say clearly that they're all outside interests

who all fueling conflict through greed, through the desire to control and use the phrase and economic colonialism which he says is facing people. so he is able to speak out very clearly and prophetically said, and he is able to lay out the problems. but as he does have to keep to diplomatic channels, i'm not going to condemn individuals. but it was interesting yes, that you mentioned under the president of democratic over the congo. in his speech, the pope named rwanda as fueling the conflict in the eastern part of and the pope then responded by saying that she had forgotten genocide had been getting on in the congo. so there are ways in which to,

to make points without necessarily laying out on the specific condemnations of individual son. he le, let's just talk about the fact that you know that the paper and the congress president felix, katie, may have a different take on how to deal with the conflict at the moment in the east. but the pope is in town. the president present tessa. katie knows that were his words. at any podium as he welcomes the pope, will get a lot of air time globally. how much pressure does that put on? do you think on groups like the n 23 and the government in kigali because they're obviously watching very carefully what is happening and what is being said? i think is the enormous pressure and just to go back to what master more was sane they. busy had also invited betia from rwanda and burundi, and indeed the grid legs area, though he's meeting with these bishop because as you know, because of

a church in africa indeed is a well connected if you like. well, i of machinery. so there is an important movement to resolve this problem because interestingly, both country have and majority cost way. now i think there is a now much pressure already being brought by the catholic bishop of congo. thank or the association of the conference call. go on the current president as though he is already feeling the pressure and well, like every or that every or that politician. he's brian to you that maggio. but i think that will frank, this is poco prophetically on what he thinks about the problem. and that is consistent with his message or anamosa for sure that the political

leader must take responsibility the leader in africa, that a big responsibility bar. the record that we see around because congo is offering not simply because of the past, but also because of the present and the to president of polo and wonder must come to the dialogue table. that's what it is, is asking them to practice the africa spiritual tradition of lava. and i mean, they have to do this by these take all of our people that are dying every day because of the self blessed conflict between to never really and there while the states and the people who are deep historical i, i just wanna bring in math because you've been noting an agreement, i just like to hear your take on what santa said in chicago. right. i mean i, i just wanted to mention that there's a number of pressure on what's going on in,

in congo on con, please leave those. but as a side show, this is happening also in italy and in europe because there has been the in the last few days in the coverage of the pope and, and that again in italy, a series of articles by prominent commentators lamenting that the pope is the building too much attention to africa and to the south end this year and yet forgot in europe. this is very interesting because these shows are how disruptive in a good sense po frances is being for the catholic culture of white man in europe. and so he, you, you see that there are pressures that are, are very evident they are all on the ground by there are the pressures are behind the scenes that are among thing against francis or who was seen to attentive to

the periphery is over the world this is a key element. the tensions are on this pontificate if any you should say disruptive because that feeds into my next question for, for christopher lambing kinshasa because, and i'm quoting hair, that the paper saying hands off the democratic republic of congo, hands of africa, stock choke it, choke choking africa. it's not a mind to be stripped or a terrain to be plundered and it turns of the disruptive element of, of the pope. he's basically highlighting his knee the rich west or the developed countries. and that companies who to use or how are using and happy use congo and its resources to build up their own financial wealth respectively in their companies and in their countries. and that focus is, must be very uncomfortable. yes, absolutely. and francis from right from the word go, is pontifical, has had a radical social message. and part of that message is the pope,

once the church to go to what he calls the peripheries. and to take the message of the gospel out of messrs mentioning the criticism that the pope in europe away from the said the traditional heartlands of catholic power and go out to those countries which are suffering to speak prophetically and to speak truth to power. and it is striking, being here in contrast with the pope point, when you compare the perception, the pope has gotten what he's saying, what he's talking about here with some of the things about the couldn't research weeks. is that a series book system? disgruntled former official, lamenting, they lost their job, they couldn't get certain of african apartments. these things seem those things in the class can seem like a planet to what's happening in contrast. and you look at the numbers turning out and you look at the work, the church is doing in health care and education piece building. and actually you think this is, this is where the church is both now today and the church at the future. i mean,

you know, the majority of the population in congo are under 24. huge number of catholic. this is the future of catholicism the we're seeing and we are witnessing and as a shift in, in the, in the power balance posters in the churches, in places such as a democrat public, congo, and south sedans. some, some few coming near the end of the program. so just some quick questions. hey, i mean the catholic church as, as christopher mentioned, is becoming more and more relevant to a younger and younger population. the pope himself thinks that the future of the catholic church is in africa. what's your general impression about the generational divide between young people in the faith and the older generation that have seen maybe 2 or 3 popes? yes, i think there's a huge divide m in africa has also entered the digital world. and the challenge today, i think, is whether africans can take advantage. that is, i forgot colleagues,

advantage of the open book is showing 2 of africa to view africa boy. and then for a people that have been held in this old form of catholicism around being africa. b sharp, who are very comfortable. celebrate in mass in latin. the one to restore the past imaginary past glory of catholicism in africa. and so even in congo, there are new churches emerging. you know that these are new churches that are probably, or even probably a or through the visit of the many young i leaving the traditional euros century tradition not only are back in the middle, the name mainline churches and finding home in the band. it costs the route in

africa and then africa, indian initiative christianity though, i think they're really great divide both fries. this is trying to break the divide by creating the freedom that we didn't have africans in the church on. now at. ready to really speak our own voices and bring africa jonesy. so, reinventing catholicism in africa study, thank you very much, which is very quickly. maxima, the final word. what you heard the legacy of this trip will be it's an important trip because it's a glimpse into the future, which is now called global policies. or will be which will look significantly different from what he has been a euro centric. why to male dominated church

until a few years ago. but we shall see what does happen, what the legacy of this trip will be in the coming days at all of my guess. thank you, chris, for landing kinshasa must have been forgive early in pennsylvania and stan isla in chicago. thanks for joining us on this edition of inside story and thank you for watching as well. you can see the program again anytime by visiting our website at algebra, dot com and full further discussion gateway facebook page at facebook dot com forward slash ha inside story. you can also join the conversation on twitter handle that is at ha, inside story for me. the whole rahman hope of the team here. thank you for your time and your company. the ah

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