crew sass day brought skies coming back in behind, some mild weather, wet and windy weather, up towards the northwest. so may windy weather turn to northwestern parts of africa, a brisk ovary setting in here with a chance to some rain for algeria. ah, ah diet, define who we are. but who are we? if we don't know what we're eating in a disturbing investigation into globalized food fraud, people and power reveals long hidden scandalous practices. the def, infiltrated international wholesale markets and supermarket chains, and asks, what's really on our plates. food in glorious food pond to launches era stop plundering africa's result says the message from pope frances as he visits 2 of the continents war torn countries, what impact will his visit have on these states?

and what future does catholicism have in africa? this is inside story. ah, welcome to the program on the whole robin, the pope's visit to the democratic republic of congo comes as it struggles to contain worsening violence. eastern congo has suffered unrest for years, but fighting has intensified and displayed to half a 1000000 people since the resurgence of the m 23 armed group, the pontiff will go to sal saddam, where civil war and conflict between rival ethnic groups is taking its toll on civilians, it highlights the instability of regional peace and how it's affecting citizens. the pope's visits aim to highlight this, but does he have the answers? malcolm web begins are coverage. is the 1st time since 1983 that have

come to visit democratic republic of congo. the country in africa with the largest number of followers of the roman catholic church, about half of congress, nearly 100000000 people members. hope frontage was due to visit in the middle of last year, but he had some problems with his knee. so the trip was bone, the initial plan included is stop in eastern congo escalating conflicts that resulted in not being dropped from the program. here in the capital can shasta, he's spoken about the forthcoming election, which is due to be held at the end of this year. he said, it must be free, fair and credible when he also pointed a finger at the west for what he said was a poisonous greed for congos, vast mineral wealth. he said with fueling congo, come malcolm web for inside story. now the catholic church has significant influence in the d. c. were about half of the population identify as roman catholic

. it's also critical of the countries politics. in 2016, the church was at the center of protest against the venue president of capella. he was forced to renounce a 3rd term in 2018, deployed. observe as to molly to the presidential election, saying he wanted to ensure credible results. critics accused the church of meddling in congress. politics. in 2020 peg. francis net president. felix tissue katie to improve relations. and now the head of the roman catholic church is in kinshasa. ahead of elections. this coming december the well for this i'm joined by august thinkin schanzer is christopher lam. he is usually based in ryan, he's the correspondent for the weekly catholic newspaper, the tablet and pennsylvania usa is massimo forgive lee, a church historian and professor of theology and religious studies at villanova university. and in chicago. is stanley ello, a research professor of catholic and african studies at depaul university,

a very well welcome to all of you on inside story and thank you for your time. christopher can just begin with. you can show serene faith is an incredibly important part of life for those that believe in a, in a higher spiritual guide. what does the vatican hope than to achieve from the pope's arrival in the d. r. c. and, and later on in the week in south to dawn, well, you say faith is very important to people in the country republic of congo, about half of 90000000 population all catholics. and the pope is here to, i think festival support them in the, the mission of the church in this country. he's calling for peace because these countries, but the country republic of congo and south donna dean, were need lacerated by civil wars that are ongoing. the pipes and very strong the

exploitation is going on in africa. so i think it's really both a trip to support the, the churches in these countries and also to call for peace and to try and bring peace where there's clearly been terrible civil wars and both countries. indeed, it will get into the intricacies of all of those difficulties. those countries, as we continue without chat, must have again in pennsylvania. i'm sure theologians cross will, especially catholic theologians and analysts will be closely watching the pope's visits into these countries, and what he has to say will reverberate amongst the catholic church. it will reverberate because those in right now is going through a very delicate process called the process with a process of consultation, all both catholics through and thanks to their bishops locally on the major issues that are now at the center of the date of catholics on women in the church, on gender, on the catholics,

and so on. and so some of these questions happen to be divisive. we think of our season also between the western world and some african church leaders and, and also many african conflicts. and so this is a less visible issue, especially because of the emphasis given by preferences to the social economic situation of the congo and of africa. but this is something that i believe in the background. let's bring it in a stand a low in chicago. this particular pope has made it his point to highlight the unfairness of the global south and he's focused on africa a great deal through his papacy in various addresses to the public. the d. r. c and south saddam might well be happy about this, but i suppose africa generally will be happy to see the pope. oh definitely. i mean

you can already see from the enthusiasm of the people in there. how much does that mean to our people come in as it is in the post called the moment you remember you're in the. ready that many people predicted that there will be picking dead bodies of the africa. many people they didn't want to go is too dangerous to go. the bay, just like the continuing, as my vision of africa though they spoke, is break in the cycle of my vision by believing in the continent of africa. and i think that our people are so happy that the pope is done in the gaze of the world last march of this continent that has so much potential that often is it marginalized big. my di met

walter and in global ality. look about maxima here in pennsylvania because this visit was, well, plan does, most people visits. ah, but the recent conflict that we've been hearing about and seeing the east of the country has certainly changed the tone of what he's been saying. how does this impact on you might say the public at large and also the catholic diaspora who's watching paps to see whether the co, the pope can make a difference. i believe the catholic church and the papacy and its implemented car has made a difference already in the, in the most recent years in history of congo. because that's, remember the previous paper visits happened under the dictatorship. and so now that it has been a complicated democratic transition, but that is a difference. so device again is always very well informed on what happens on the

ground as one of the best diplomacy in the world. and so i think that this trip and be modified by what's happening in some area. but i do not think that this has been a surprise for, for those web plan, this trip which are usually very well informed and a big diplomats. and so i, i don't think this will modify the core message open francis, which is what we have heard yesterday, ill already doing the 1st math full time to bring you in here because obviously civilians, certainly the public in the d. c and south today will look the guidance from that spiritual leader as he arrives. but again, spiritual leaders like the paper ways don't really want to or try not to interact and interfere in the politics of a region or a country. but this pope is very vocal about things that, you know, touch a nerve,

don't they, with politicians, and he's, he's not being backward and coming forward when it comes to the issues of the d. c . that's right and of course presents the country both as a head of state and as the leader of the catholic church. and so in his role as head of state 100 gauges with the leaders of the country. and he address them yesterday with a powerful message calling to the end of the exploitation of africa. and then as the leader of the church today, when about emphasizing what the church can do for pete about saying that that can be no justification violence. anyone who, who is a calling himself a christian, he said, an engaging and violence must lay down there. um, so he has that jewel road he can utilize on the paper visits. of course, he doesn't have specific policy proposals that he wants to see implemented. he

comes as a person of faith and he comes to try and change the hearts and minds of people. that's the main resources he has his disposal. but we can see today there's a 1000000 people turning out for a mass. saudis, obviously huge self power influence, spiritual influence to the, to seek, see and wants to deploy. and of course, the catholic church and the public of congress has been very involved in trying to shift free and fair elections transition to democracy. and when he goes to south sit down, we're going to see similar soft power influence when he goes with the canterbury to try and moderate the church and got them to try and get the warring leaders to agree to peace. so i think that's how we approach these things. okay, well let me just bring in stand in chicago because is this where there is a slight problem, certainly with the catholic church and that the, the pontiff,

as we've just heard, you know, has this jewel role. he's the head of catholic church, he's also a head of state. and yet we have his senior bishops and clergy in a country like the d. r. c to being very open in being involved in politics. you know, we put that in inverted commas, overseeing elections, making sure that they all witnesses pressurising, a former president to relinquish a breaking with tradition of the constitution. that's all history. it does if create a problem within the catholic church where the pope feels uncomfortable with the way his clergy are behaving in as a say politics and inverted comments in the d r c. i don't think so. you must understand that. but fries, this is for decentralized vision, is one of the grid as reforming book that i will stay in time. that is that local b sharp and not simply that

b is we're talking about this, the ology of the people. though he's not a clerical clerk. someone will just want to remain on the level of what be show that d n. what pre lane though in for a tele to t, one of his key documents about social transformation and he emphasizes this aspect of korea different tiny di. now we've been to get the brougham bonds, so society muscle in society is driving by was violent light vision of a t and on me to get that operate in a country like d. r. a. see that as we know, is a country that is potentially read california, the largest economy in the world. so they both is going not to impose

better, right. i live in the cries of the people and to follow arise, the agency off the people, especially the ordinary for people my exist. i really, america, people who are staying outside into paraphrase, they're not always seen as so it is about meeting the shop. then the church lead, as he goes to meet the young people concentrate the interested i'll talk about the mineral wealth and the people who meet. i want to get back to, am i supposed to go to here because obviously, you know, as stan isla has just said, you know, he wants to try to bring peace to a region that so traumatized and listen to the people of their woes. but this is a holistic approach, not just the d r c, but also its neighbors and wonder is not involved. in this paypal visit around about 40 percent of rwandans or catholics. massimo has has the vatican mr. trick by not involving rwanda as part of their itinerary. because then that is where the

main crux of the, of the, the problem lies at the moment in the region, is that this relationship between the d, r c and rwanda, and the proxies that are fighting and east of the country. that is certainly true. and this is something that some members of the, of the clergy and some missionaries in congo have spoken about openly when a pope travels. and when a pope does a huge job. as as pastor all of the diverse, like catholic church, even a trip abroad a he has to balance 2 elements which is on the one side, the prophetic message apiece. and just these reconciliation and thinking truth to power. and on the other side, the other element, imbalance, ease, ease, diplomacy. so here what chris lamb was saying is very important that the paul of

travels as a religious leader, the leader of the catholic church, but also a is as a head of state. and so all these elements army and carefully considered when these beaches are drafted, when they are deliver birth, the people, the po francis meets, or what he says. and what he doesn't say. one final thing is so easy, easy cause important to pay attention to what a pope doesn't say and these are our silences that are usually are picked up by both the listeners. and so we should expect a correlational line from a pope will travel in one country against a neighboring country, especially when there are inter catholic issues the air. but this is certainly something bad and has not been mis by those who have organized this trip. and also by those who are falling po frances, there actually, it is prophecy. a and,

and it's a diplomacy at the same time, in a very delicate balance. it is a delicate balance, isn't it, christopher? because obviously, you know, he knows what the problems are. you know, a congo has some of what the wells, which is deposits of diamonds, gold, copper, cobalt and tonsil and lithium. your international players want those resources add to the mix, and insurgency across borders. you know, skirmish and fight that's ongoing and has been ongoing for decades. why does the pope start in trying to reconcile or try to help reconcile these various disparate groups? oh, yes. very complicated political situation. you know what i've been struck by so far and the trip is the pope has not held back in identifying the problem was the injustices that you see in the, in the country, which he says are, you know, he doesn't name names,

but he does say clearly that they're all outside interests who all fueling conflict through greed, through desire to control and use the phrase and economic colonialism which he says is facing people. so he is able to speak out very clearly and prophetically said, and he is able to lay out the problems, but as he does have to keep to diplomatic channels, not going to condemn individuals. but it was interesting yes, that you mentioned under the president of democratic over the congo in his speech to the pope named rwanda as fueling the conflict in the eastern part of and the pope then responded by saying that that she had forgotten genocide had been getting on in the congo. so there are ways in which to,

to make points without necessarily laying out the specific nations of individual son. he le, let's just talk about the fact that you know, that the paper and the congress president felix, that the katie may have a different take on how to deal with the conflict at the moment in the east. but the pope is in town. the president present tessa. katie knows that were his words. at any podium as he welcomes the pope, will get a lot of air time globally. how much pressure does that put on? do you think on groups like the n 23 and the government in kigali because they're obviously watching very carefully what is happening and what is being said? i think is the anonymous pressure. and just to go back to what massimo was saying, the, the. busy pope has also invited betia from rwanda and burundi, and indeed the grid legs area, though he's meeting with these bishop because as you know,

because of the church in africa indeed, is it well connected if you like it? well, i of machinery. so there is an important movement to resolve this problem because interestingly, both country have and majority cost way. now i think there is no much pressure already being brought by the catholic bishop of congo bank or the association of the conference call. go on the current president, and so he's already feeling the pressure and well, like every or that every or that politician, he's trying to use that maggio. but i think that will frank, this is focus prophetically on what he thinks about the problem. and that is consistent with his message or and mr. for sure,

that the political leader must take responsibility, the leader in africa that a big responsibility bar. the record that we see around because congo is offering not simply because of the pat, but also because of the president and the to president of google. and wonder must come to the dialogue table. that's what it's asking them to practice the africa spiritual tradition of going through. and i mean they have to do this by these take all of our people that are dying every day because of the self blessed coffee, we've been to know barley and there. while the states and the people who started i, i just wanna bring in math because you've been noting an agreement, i just like to hear your take on what santa said in chicago. right. i mean, i, i just wanted to mention that there's a number of pressure on what's going on in,

in congo on complex leaders. but ever side show this is happening also in italy and in europe because there has been the in the last few days in the coverage of the pope and, and that again in italy, a series of articles by prominent commentators lamenting that the pope is the voting too much attention to africa and to the 1000 a year and yet forgot in europe. this is very interesting because these shows are how disrupt the in a good sense po frances is being for the catholic culture of white man in europe. and so he, you, you see that there are pressures that are, are very evident they are all on the ground by there are other pressures are behind the scenes that are among thing against francis or who was seen to attentive to

the periphery is over the world this is a key element. the tensions are on this pontificate if any you should say disruptive because that feeds into my next question for christopher lemming kinshasa because, and i'm quoting hair, that the paper saying hands off the democratic republic of congo, hans of africa stopped choke it, choked, choking africa. it's not a mind to be stripped or a terrain to be plundered and it turns of the disruptive element of, of the pope he's basically highlighting, is neat the rich west or the developed countries. and that companies who to use or how are using and happy use congo and its resources to build up their own financial wealth respectively in their companies and in their countries. and that focus is, must be very uncomfortable. yes, absolutely. and francis from right from the word go, is pontifical, has had a radical social message. and part of that message is that the pope,

once the church, to go to what is called the peripheries. i'm and to take the message of the gospel out all for a mess was mentioning, what can have the criticism of the pope in europe, away from the say, the traditional heartlands of catholic power and go out to those countries which are suffering to speak prophetically. and to speak truth to power, and it is striking, being here in can chat with the pope. when you compare the reception, the pope has gotten what he's saying, what he's talking about here. with the things about the recent weeks is that a series of disgruntled former officials lamenting the thought they lost their job . they couldn't get certain of african apartments. these things seem those things in the african seem like a planet to what's happening in contrast and you look at the numbers turning out and you look at the the, what the church is doing in health care and education piece building. and actually you think this is, this is where the church is both now to day and the church at the future. i mean,

you know, the majority of the population in congo are under 24. huge number of catholic. this is the future of catholicism that we're seeing and we are witnessing and as a shifted in the, in the power button in the churches, in places such as a democratic public congo, unsubsidized something about something coming near the end of the program. so just some quick questions, hey, i mean the catholic church as, as christopher mentioned, is becoming more and more relevant to a younger and younger population. the pope himself thinks that the future of the catholic church is in africa. what's your general impression about the generational divide? between young people in the faith and the older generation that have seen maybe 2 or 3 popes. yes, i think there's a huge divide. i mean, africa has also entered the digital world. and the challenge today, i think, is whether africans can take advantage. that is africa colleagues,

advantage of this openness or is showing was africa view africa avoid. and then for a people that have been held in this old form of catholicism around being, i forgot to be sharp, who are very comfortable. celebrate in mass in latin. the one to restore the past imaginary past glory of catholicism in africa. and so even in congo, there are new churches emerging. you know, it leaves that these are new churches that are probably or even probably a 4th of the visit of the many young i leaving the traditional eurocentric not only are back in the middle the mainline churches and finding home

in the band. it costs on the bus route in africa and then africa. india initiative increased the i think there is a great divide, both fries, this is trying to break the divide by creating the freedom that we didn't have as africans in the kind of judge on get. now. ready to really speak our own voices and bring out forgotten, james, be to reinvent think i was just me offering stuff. thank you very much. just very quickly. maxima, the final word. what you have the legacy of this trip will be it's an important trip because it's a glimpse into the future, which is now called global policies. or what could be which will look significantly different from what he has been a euro centric. why to male dominated church

until a few years ago, but we shall see what does happen, what the legacy of the district will be in the coming days at all of my guess. thank you, chris, for landing control semester, but forget only in pennsylvania and stan isla in chicago. thanks for joining us on this edition of inside story. and thank you for watching as well. you can see the program again anytime by visiting our website at al serra dot com and full further discussion gateway facebook page at facebook dot com forward slash ha inside story . it also join the conversation on twitter handle that is at a j inside story for me, the whole robin hope of the team here. thank you for your time and your company. the me ah,

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