next couple of days, and by the time we come to sunday, it should be a good deal track or southern parts of india. but notice showers, they're still drifting in from the bad been go for like a will still see more heavy showers for sunday. ah. debating the issues of the day, the 5 largest polluters that the world are in india, jump into the street. they made their money on call. they made their money on field convincing those folks know we need to go. green is very, very difficult, giving all a voice we chose to because we wanted to escape war and violence. when you humanize this narrative, you allow people to really understand the reality and break down misconceptions. the street on al jazeera, stop plundering africa, results says the message from pope francis as he visits 2 of the continents war torn countries. what impact will his visit have on these states?

and what future does catholicism have in africa? this is inside story. ah welcome to the programs, the whole rahman, the pope's visit to the democratic republic of congo, comes as it struggles to contain worsening violence. eastern congo has suffered unrest for years, but fighting has intensified and displaced a half a 1000000 people since the resurgence of the m 23 armed group, the pontiff will go to south sudan where civil war and conflict between rival ethnic groups is taking its toll on civilians, it highlights the instability of regional peace and how it's affecting citizens. the pope's visits aim to highlight this, but does he have the answers? malcolm web begins are coverage. is the 1st time since 1983 that have

come to visit democratic republic of congo. the country in africa with the largest number of followers of the roman catholic church, about half of congress, nearly 100000000 people members. hope frontage was due to visit in the middle of last year, but he had some problems with his knee. so the trip was postpone the initial plan, included a stop in eastern congo, the escalating conflicts that resulted in not being dropped from the program here in the capital can shatter. he's spoken about the forthcoming election which is due to be held at the end of this year. he said, it must be free, fair and credible with, he'll say, pointed a finger at the west for what he said was a poisonous greed for congos, vast mineral wealth. he said with fueling congo, come malcolm web for inside story. now the catholic church has significant influence in the d. c. were about half of the population identify as roman catholic

is also critical of the countries politics in 2016, the church was that the central protest against the then president of capella, he was forced to renounce a 3rd term in 2018 deployed. observe as to molly to the presidential election saying he wanted to ensure credible results. critics accuse the church of meddling and congress politics. in 2020 pic, francis net president, felix tissue katie to improve relations. and now the head of the roman catholic church is in kinshasa. ahead of elections. this coming december. the well for this i'm joined by august thinkin schanzer is christopher lam. he is usually based in ryan. he's the correspondent for the weekly catholic newspaper, the tablet and pennsylvania usa is massimo forgive lee, a church historian and professor of theology and religious studies that villanova university of chicago is stanley. ello, a research professor of catholic and african studies at depaul university. very

well, welcome to all of you on inside story and thank you for your time. christopher can just begin with, you can show serene faith is an incredibly important part of life for those that believe in a, in a higher spiritual guide. what does the vatican hope than to achieve from the pope's arrival in the d. r. c. and, and later on in the week in south to dawn? well, you say faith is very important to people in the democratic republic of congo, about half of 90000000 population, all catholics. and the pope is here to, i think festival support them in the the mission of the church in this country. he's calling for peace because these countries, both the country republic of congo and south donna dean, were lacerated by civil wars that are ongoing. the pope's in very strong,

the exploitation is going on in africa. so i think it's really both the trips to support the churches in these countries and also to call for peace and to try and bring peace where has clearly been the terrible civil war and both countries. and we'll get into the intricacies of all of those difficulties. those countries, as we continue without track muslim if a galeon, pennsylvania, i'm sure theologians cross will flesh the catholic theologians and analysts, will be closely watching the pope's visits into these countries. and what he has to say will reverberate amongst the catholic church. it will reverberate because those in right now is going through a very delicate process called the process, which is a process of consultation all both catholics through and thanks to their bishops locally on the major issues that are now at the center of the date of catholics on women in the church, on gender, on every be carefully exist on and so some of these questions happen to be divisive

. we think of our season also between the western world and some african church leaders and, and also many african conflicts. and so this is a less visible issue, especially because of the emphasis given by paul frances to the social economic situation of the congo of africa. but this is something that i believe in the background. let's bring it in a stand a low in chicago. this particular pope has made it his point to highlight the unfairness of the global south and he's focused on africa a great deal through his papacy in various addresses to the public. the d. r. c and south saddam might well be happy about this, but i suppose africa generally will be happy to see the pope. oh definitely. i mean you can already see from the enthusiasm of the people in there.

how much does it mean to our people come in as it is in the post called the mom and you remember you're in the. ready that many people predict that there will be taken dead bodies of the 3 of africa. many people they didn't want to go is too dangerous to go. the bay, just like the continuing as my vision of africa though they spoke. ready is break in the cycle of my vision by believe it in the continent of africa. and i think that our people are so happy that the poke is done in the gaze of the world last model. this continent that has so much potential that often is it and marginalize big, my di walter,

and in global ality. let's go back to maxima here in pennsylvania because this visit was, well, plan does. most people visits. ah, but the recent conflict that we've been hearing about and seeing the east of the country has certainly changed the tone of what he's been saying. how does this impact on you might say the public at large and also the catholic diaspora who's watching paps to see whether the co, the pope can make a difference. i believe the catholic church and the papacy and it's implemented car as made a difference already in the, in the most recent years. you know, story of congo because that's remember the previous paper visits happened under the dictatorship and so now that it has been a complicated democratic transition, but that is a difference. so device again is always very well informed on what happens in the

ground as one of the best diplomacy is in the world. and so i think that is this trip every modified by what's happening in some area. but i do not think that this has been a surprise for, for those web plan, this trip which are usually very well informed. and the big diplomats. and so i, i don't think this will modify the core message open francis, which is what we have heard yesterday already doing the 1st mass, full time, just bring you in here because obviously civilians. certainly the public in the d r . c. and south today will look the guidance from the spiritual leader as he arrives . but again, spiritual leaders like the paper ways don't really want to or try not to interact and interfere in the politics of a region or a country. but this pope is very vocal about things that you know, touch a nerve,

don't they, with politicians. and he's, he's not been backward and coming forward when it comes to the issues of the d. c. rights and of course, presents the country both as head of state and as the leader of the catholic church. and so in his role as head of state 100 gauges with the leaders of the country. and he address from yesterday with a powerful message cooling to the end of the exploitation of africa. and then as the leader of the church today, when about emphasizing the, what the church can do for pete about saying that that can be no justification violence. anyone who, who is a calling himself a christian, he said, an engaging and violence must lay down there. um, so he has that jewel role that he can utilize on the paypal business. of course, he doesn't have specific policy proposals that he wants to see implemented. he

comes as a person of faith and he comes to try and change the hearts and minds of people. that's the main resources he has his disposal. but you can see today there's a 1000000 people turning out for a mass. sun is obviously huge. soft power influence spiritual influence, so the to see, see, and want to deploy. and of course the catholic church and the public of congress has been very involved in trying to ensure the free and fair elections transition to democracy. and when you go to south sit down, we're going to see similar soft power influence when he goes with the artificial canterbury to try and moderate the church has gotten to try and get the warring leaders to agree to peace. so i think that's how we approach these things. okay, well let me just bring in stand in chicago because is this where there is a slight problem, certainly with the catholic church and that the, the pontiff,

as we've just heard, you know, has this jewel role. he's the head of catholic church, he's also head of state. and yet we have his senior bishops and clergy in a country like the diaz, the to being very open in, in being involved in politics. we put that in inverted commas, overseeing elections, making sure that they all witnesses pressurizing, a former president to relinquish a breaking with tradition of the constitution. that's all history. does this create a problem within the catholic church where the pope feels uncomfortable with the way his clergy are behaving in as i say, politics and inverted comments in the d r c? i don't think so. you must understand that. but fries, this is for decentralized vision, is one of the greatest reforming that i will stay in time. that is that local

b sharp and not simply the beat up is we're talking about this. the ology of the people, though he's not a clerical clerk, collies, someone will just want to remain on the level of what be shall be in what pre lane though in for a tele to t. one of his key documents about social transformation. and he emphasizes this aspect of korea different, tiny g. now we've been to get the broken bonds. so society muscle in society is driving by was violence, light, asian r t. and on me to get that operate in a country like d, r a. see that as we know is a country that is potentially read california largest economy in the world. so the full is going not to impose. busy better, right,

i list been to the cries of the people and to rise the agency off the people, especially the ordinary for people my exist. i really, america, people who are staying outside and to paraphrase, they're not always seen as so it is about meeting the shop. then the church lead, as he's also young people concentrate the interest to that. i'll talk about the mineral wealth and the people who meet. i want to get back to, am i supposed to go to here because obviously, you know, as stan isla has just said, you know, he wants to try being piece to a region that so traumatized and listen to the people of the woes. but this is a holistic approach, not just the d r c, but also its neighbors. and i wonder, is not involved in this paypal visit around about 40 percent of rwandans or catholics. massimo has has the vatican mr. trick by not involving rwanda as part of their itinerary, because then that is where the main crux of the, of the,

the problem lies at the moment in the region is that this relationship between the d. c and rwanda, and the proxies that are fighting in east of the country. that is certainly true. and this is something that some members of the, of the clergy and some missionaries in congo have spoken about openly when a pope travels. and when a pope does a huge job as, as pastor of the divorce and catholic church in that trip abroad, a, he has to balance 2 elements which is on the one side, the prophetic message apiece. and just these reconciliation and thinking truth to power and on the other side, the other element, imbalance, ease, ease, diplomacy. so here what chris lamb was saying is very important that the paul of

travels as a religious leader, the leader of the catholic church, but also is as a head of state. and so all these elements army and carefully considered when these beaches are drafted, when they are deliver earth, the people, the po francis meets, or what he says. and what he doesn't say. one final thing is so easy, easy cause important to pay attention to what a pope doesn't say and these are our silences that are usually are picked up by both the listeners. and so we should expect a correlational line from a pope will travel in one country against a neighboring country, especially when there are inter catholic issues. the air by this is certainly something that has not been missed by those where organized the strip and also by those who are falling po frances, there actually it is a prophecy. air. and,

and it's a diplomacy at the same time, in the very delicate that it is a delicate balance, isn't it, christopher? because obviously, you know, he knows what the problems are. you know, a congo has some of what the wells, which is deposits of diamonds, gold, copper, cobalt and tonsil and lithium. your international players want those resources add to the mix and insurgency across board. you know, skirmish and fight that's ongoing and has been ongoing for decades. why does the pope start in trying to reconcile or try to help reconcile these various disparate groups? well, yes, very complicated political situation. you know what i mean struck by so far? the trip is the pope has not held back in i didn't to find the problem was the injustices that you see in the, in the country, which she says are, you know, he doesn't name names, but he does say katy,

that they're all outside interests who all fueling conflict through greed through desire to control. and he used the phrase and economic colonialism which he said, this is crazy people. so he is able to speak out very clearly and prophetically said, and he is able to lay out the problems. but as he does have to keep to diplomatic channels, not going to condemn individuals. but it was interesting yes, that you mentioned under the president of democratic over the congo in his speech to the pope named rwanda as fueling the conflict in the eastern part of and the pope then responded by saying that she had forgotten genocide had been getting on in the congo, so there are ways in which to,

to make points without necessarily laying out specific common nations of individual son. he le, let's just talk about the fact that you know that the paper and the congress president felix, katie, may have a different take on how to deal with the conflict at the moment in the east. but the pope is in town. the president present tessa. katie knows that were his words. at any podium as he welcomes the pope, will get a lot of air time globally. how much pressure does that put on? do you think on groups like the n 23 and the government in kigali because they're obviously watching very carefully what is happening and what is being said? i think is the anonymous pressure. and just to go back to what massimo was saying they, the pope had also invited betia from rwanda and burundi. and indeed the great lakes area, though he's meeting with these bishop because as you know,

because of the church in africa indeed is it well connected? if you like it, well i of machinery. so there is an important movement to resolve this problem. because interestingly, both country have and majority causeway. now i think there is a normal pressure already being brought by the catholic bishop of congo. danco, the association of family, a conference call go on the current president as though he is already feeling the pressure and well, like every or that, every other politician he's trying to you that maggio. but i think that will frank, this is focus prophetically on what he thinks about the problem and that is consistent with his message or and mr. for sure that the political

leader must take responsibility, the leader in africa, that is a big responsibility bar. the record that we see around because congo is offering not simply because of the past, but also because of the present and the to president of polo and wonder, must come to the dialogue table. that's what it's asking them to practice the africa tradition of going to and i mean they have to do this for the sake of the, of our people that are dying every day because of the self blessed conflict. we've been to never really and there while the states and the people who are deep historical i, i just wanna bring in because you've been noting an agreement, i just like to hear your take on what simon said in chicago. right. i mean i, i just wanted to mention that there's a number of pressure on what's going on in congo on con,

please leave those. but every side. sure. this is happening also in italy and in europe because there has been the in the last few days in the coverage of the pope and, and that again in italy, a series of articles by prominent commentators lamenting that the pope is too much attention to africa and to the south, the name is year and yet forgot in europe. this is very interesting because these shows how disruptive, in a good sense preferences is being for the capital culture of white man in europe. and so you, you see that there are pressures that are very evident they are all on the ground. but there are other pressures behind the scenes that are among being against frances were seen to attend to the periphery. so this

is the key element. the tensions are on this front, if any you should say disruptive because that feeds into my next question. the christ for landing can shasta because, and i'm quoting hair, that the paper saying hands off the democratic republic of congo, hands of africa, stopped choking, choking africa. it's not a mind to be stripped or it's rain to be plundered and it tends to the disruptive elements of, of the pope. he's basically highlighting his need the rich west or the developed countries. and that companies who to use how are using and happy is congo, and it's resources to build up their own financial wealth respectively in their companies and in that countries. and that focuses must be very uncomfortable. yes, absolutely. and from this, from right, from the word go to pontifical, has had a radical social message. and part of that message is the, the po,

once the church, to go to what he calls the peripheries. and to take the message of the gospel out of messrs mentioning the criticism that the pope in europe away from the said the traditional heartlands of catholic power and go out to those countries which are suffering to speak prophetically and to speak truth to power. and it is striking, being here in contrast with the pope point, when you compare the perception, the pope has gotten what he's saying, what he's talking about here, with some of the things about the couldn't reach weeks. he's got a series book system. disgruntled former official, lamenting, they lost their job, they couldn't get certain of african apartments. these things seem those things in the class can seem like a planet to what's happening in contrast. and you look at the numbers turning out and you look at the, the, what the church is doing in health care and education piece building. and actually you think this is, this is where the church is both now today and the church at the future. i mean,

you know, the majority of the population in congo are under 24. huge number of catholic. this is the future of catholicism that we're seeing. and we are witnessing and as a shift in, you know, in the, in the power balance in the churches, in places such as a democratic public, congo, and south sedans. some about some you coming near the end of the program. so just some quick questions. hey, i mean the catholic church as, as christopher mentioned, is becoming more and more relevant to a younger and younger population. the pope himself thinks that the future of the catholic church is in africa. what's your general impression about the generational divide between young people in the faith and the older generation that have seen maybe 2 or 3 popes? yes, i think there's a huge divide. i mean, africa has also entered the digital world. and the challenge today, i think, is whether africans can take advantage that is africa colleagues.

advantage of this openness is showing 2 of africa to view africa boy. and then for a people that have been held in this old form of catholicism around being africa. b sharp, who are very comfortable celebrate in mass in latin, the one to restore the past imaginary past glory of catholicism in africa. and so even in congo, there are new churches emerging. you know, that these are new churches that are probably or catholicism even probably a 4th of the visit of the many young i leaving the traditional eurocentric not only are back in the middle name, mainline churches and finding home in the band. it costs the route in africa and

then africa, indian initiative christianity. so i think there is a great divide, both fries, this is trying to break the divide by creating the freedom that we didn't have africans in the church on. now. ready to really speak our own voices and bring africa jonesy. so reinventing catholicism in africa. stan, thank you very much. just very quickly. maxima, the final word. what you heard the legacy of this trip will be it's an important trip because it's a glimpse into the future, which is now called global policies. or what the, which will look significantly different from what he has been. the euro centric. why to male dominated church until a few years ago,

but we shall see what does happen, what the legacy of this trip will be in the coming days at all of my guess. thank you. chris, for landing kinshasa, massachusetts, ideally, in pennsylvania, and stan isla in chicago. thanks for joining us on this edition of inside story. and thank you for watching as well. you can see the program again anytime by visiting our website at algebra, dot com and full further discussion gateway facebook page at facebook dot com forward slash ha inside story. you can also join the conversation on twitter handle that is at ha, inside story for me. the whole rahman hope of the team here, like every time and company, the ah

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