algeria and also into libya over the next day or so. so i was continue just around the gulf of guinea right away across good parts of southern africa, more storms coming through here. but it does look less wet to say the south africa . ah. tough times the man tough question. what exactly are you asking for you? what the troops on the ground, the rigorous, the way we challenge conventional wisdom racism is so deeply entrenched in the country that it's identified with america. so when you challenge racism, it looks as if you're challenging of mirror and demand the truth. there is no serious discussion about this because it goes to the very root of you. we are up front with me, mark lamond hill. what out here spain's prime minister made a visit to morocco this week. if government has agreed to support robot plans to grant will ptolemy the disputed western sahara territory. but will this change in

policy from madrid make a difference? this is inside story. ah hello there and welcome to the program. i'm nora, kyle, spain and morocco have been at odds for many years. they disagreed a territories, immigration, and support for rebels in the region, but a visit by the spanish prime minister to robots this week is raising hopes of improved ties. the 2 sides have agreed to put aside the differences and expand economic corporation. they signed more than 20 trade and investment agreements on thursday from going to work together and up hold a policy of what they called mutual respect the summit and the capital mark her 1st high level meeting since 2015. and it comes less than a year since primacy. petro sanchez backed morocco's plan to grant autonomy to the

disputed western sahara territory. the polish thought is separatist group, which once an independent state in the region has rejected that plan. well this dispute goes back to 1975. that's when the former spanish colony of western sahara was amex by morocco. its box, an armed conflict between robots and the police. sorry a front in 1991. the u. n. stepped in, he broke a cease fire with a promise of a referendum on independence that has yet to take place. 16 years later, morocco introduced its western sahara autonomy planned to the un. it was rejected by the policy mario maintaining its support for a referendum on independence. where all kirk was a big diplomatic push in 2020. when then us present, donald trump recognized at so frenzy over the disputed territory. since then, robots has been trying to gain more international support, particularly across europe. ah,

well, let's go now to our guests. joining us from london is hugh, love it, a senior policy fellow european council on foreign relations into $850.00. is malcolm profess? guess me has now a who teaches political science at the american international university in q 8 and in brussels is my job may her see the head of the collective us of so worry human rights defenders are very welcome to all of you. you. why has spain reversed 5 decades of neutrality to back morocco's autonomy plan in the western sahara? well, 1st and foremost, this is about spain trying to restore and improve explanations. with rocco, over the past few years, i think it's been a pretty rocky relationship over a number of issues. part of this is clearly westerns, our complex sustain ability to coordinate immigration

control, migration control marker with another pattern. so there's a lot of reasons. spain felt that there was a need to restore this relationship with rocco and ultimately the price of restoring that was the change in position towards went into it with us division. it's an interesting move, isn't it? because it's not even supported by most spaniards. indeed, i think the way the spanish government did it, and my niece at the new policy was very problematic in terms of the lack of consultation with spanish policies. but also indications. a lack of consultation from, from within the ministries are mystery itself. and so this was very much political decision that was taken out of a nickel level for political reason. maybe that was still in the relationship. now,

it was a pretext for this spanish going to try to use this would actually also help ease. but i think it will have the chance to talk about this. when you look on the ground, that does not seem to be the case. absolutely. ok, much. let's get to your reactions to spain's move a political decision. but one of the ramifications for the people in western sahara . well, this is, this is a position taken by censored by ministers pain, which was rejected by overwhelming majority in the parliament and even even with his own political party. this visits, for instance, has his vice president refused to join him. what is it to you to do a counter offer to sell it to you the position taken by citizens towards the question with her and violation or break and the consistent consensus

position of spain didn't do it indicate specially personally when we know that paying as responsive or in western sahara. historically, it is possible for the declaration of not completing the conversation process and listeners to holler and legally responsible as it is. and that means the minister in power and occupied, it was a compatibility that cannot be transferred to international law from folks. so how's the spectrum's the history of the base itself under the spanish betrayal to the, for how many people reproduce itself. and basically this a highly people called in for, for, for, for spain to resume for the responsibility and a lot of people business to see the express and decide what to put to confuse and under the you answer the autonomy plan that was proposed by monroe coach

and i'm quite shoes and no one who claim to support it knows what it is actually in track. no one knows what told me be channels of fiction, not on the plan, nor the constitution on the machine nature and local laws or cannot accommodate folks. what's your proposal? ok, please just give me a jump in the because clearly yes, mean morocco is welcomed, the support from spain. but what difference does that actually make on the ground as my job said, what actually is the autonomy plan? this is now got spain's backing, and is it going to allow it to move forward a tool being give us an idea of what we're talking about here? well, 1st of all, i'm going to talk about spain and why spain has decided to make the move 1st goal within international law. at the security council, many of the members of the security council have endorsed the autonomy plan,

so i don't think that they don't know what's inside the autonomy plan. okay. we don't have time to call us because we don't know what's inside on the car so. so it's nice to report to dbhdd the judicial administrative management to the we've had our population and the american sovereignty and the, the, it was a, it was clear to crystal clear and the there were like many resolutions that in tor endorsed the autonomy plan at the the powers, like the united states, spain, germany, and the members of the security council of endorse the autonomy plan. now i think that spain understood well where it's interest light and made sure that morocco is a strategic partner and decided to actually leave these cold war ideology behind by working with moral court and deciding because they know everyone knows that the these dispute is not between the police higher, you know,

it's between algeria and, and morocco. and the proof is that jerry was cited in more than $35.00 times at the un resolution. and more than 89 percent of the un member states endorsed the autonomy the autonomy plan. now i think that what is happening now in the world is that morocco is gaining momentum not only at the security council, but at the level of the african union, and at the level of the european union. we have seen that at the european union, the 3 center reports that the 2022 report actually have the morocco in actually in use in actually the resources for benefits of the population. ok. so i'm not at all, don't at all that's going into them. so it's one glance, when does the space backing? does it signify a momentum that morocco is building for support for this or tanami plan for giving

the is so worries the right to rule. but under morocco's sovereignty, that seems to be the key issue of this autonomy plan. is that something that the european union is supporting that you're saying other countries getting behind clearly there is support the mark was on, on denial. what they did was actually come out even more strongly in support of it's up until then most members of the us institute council has said that yes, it was a good basis for negotiations and that was the only basis. but i think this is quite important because while there is kwansa and your colleagues, members of the u. s. security council, european union also. and you have to be in agreement that acceptable to both has to be in agreement. and i think this is the problem. the ultimately, the, sorry, oh and people will not accept the autonomy. and so yes,

you can come out and support it if you're us, that doesn't. when you get in negotiations with what i said is basically need you down because not acceptable. the my point of view is how can you actually, you know, try to bridge the gap between rockers proposal and also the proposal which they put in 2007 at the same time. well, so much of that lets off you that question. how is the gap bridged between the autonomy plan and the policy, sorry, is demands? well, actually that is only one gap and acceptance to, to freely allow the hiring people to choose. and as, as the police are said to include that as an option. but then the final call should be the so how people's call and decisions should be taken freely by the harvest.

but to, to come back to, to the time and plan which, which means and clear of course to everyone. and we have seen how donald trump before leaving the office declare, declared its support to it. and now the same happening with such shows as we are now in an election year in spain. and this position was, was, was widely rejected by, by spanish political parties. and by the spanish people to, to, to come to, to, to, to a conclusion. any position that goes in contradiction with international role as it applies to her. since her will contribute only to intensifying or, or increase in the stuff or in the territory. this double lies in that region and the entire entire people off. it lets us be clear here that that was sent to her, and the position of the space was outside. the common policy that you,

as we have seen, boils a declination of about 30 minutes supported to process. in the same time, we swear we should not ignore the, you know, and this isn't meant by the highest court of justice. and that came with the main conclusions. western america are separate and distinct territories. morocco has no so that it was sent to her. and the 2 deals between the you and moral cannot be legal without obtaining the consent or the sour people. and if that applies on the plunder of natural resources, western sahara, i think that pretty supplies to when it comes to a decision, we're political official of the people who are said that i understand. i understand that that is the, the stance of the policy area. but given the reality on the ground, we're seeing morocco making these diplomatic advances. so what's the positive response to that? how does it, how will it counter it or offer an alternative?

what exactly, that's the major question, but the policy has to deal with. we have seen we have tunnel law, native congress. so the police have you couple of weeks ago when the 1st time when you saw you had to candidates for, for the presidency of public and the police on front. it went of course and get a new atmosphere, but at the end it's a good experience that we have experienced in and, and at the southern point it started on the other side, what police are you can offer is, is basically what, what do you and has proposed is engage and in a serious political talks, put a puts a clear, load them up with a determined deadlines on the implementation of the political process and understand them and listen to the we have seen that local choice to wind time only

contributed to beacon the says file annex and explore territory, and now we have the ongoing again and, and we're also being signing for those 2 years on the peace process. this comes, of course, and the result of the failure of the international community, mainly the security council and implementing its own that is lucian's, a promise to refer him done in 2 years. this could not be implemented. i think this was not to be blamed for. so for which in that long know, for, for, has been having, having all get into the, of the, of the, of the way do you and deals with the processing was to me. i mean, i want to just bring you back in here because it does seem very clear that the plethora is, is not going to accept this or tanami plan. and therefore, is not the only way for to give the people of western sahara the right to choose their own future. well actually when talking about the representative

to here, i think that all the time the we are mention in the are mentioned in the some are mentioning that the representative of this issue are the people who live in kinder camps. how about the people who live in the moroccan western sahara, the population there is more than 80 percent of the her always who live in the western having american western, how are they actually they enjoy the day they participate in the economics or political level. so actually they gave their word, they wanted to be part of, of morocco. so the rubric it was, it was clear cut. and that's why we have seen that the united nations decided to bury the, refer and them as it doesn't go along with the expiration of this week. i don't think if i should say a number of points that i could see here is disagreeing with what they were presented to me. just leave you

respond to that and then can come back to you in a moment. when you look at the history of you in that piece process and you execute you. ringback cancel the declarations and you engine resolutions, people who have to decide all the people whether they live in west or in 2 weeks will have to decide and doing like ninety's and 80000. there was quite a determinant serious process to register the had. are we able to participate in a future referendum on that un offices, but we need to be it's not about those who reside witness. it's about the people with the bar, which is a very clear turn on the international role. these people that will have to decide and, and this was the subject of the oceans of the rock. so recognized. absolutely . okay. so people in the west and our region and the refugees living in camps in

algeria, is it not the case? yes. mean that morocco quite simply has failed to win the hearts and minds of all of these people. and that's why we're in the predicament that it's in today. well, i don't think that morocco, it's important also. i don't think that morocco, i'm sure that morocco has not failed to win the hearts of the hallways at more than 80 percent of the local population that we live. and there are the moroccan sovereignty. they propose they vote, they are members of the political parties. they participate, so i think whereas in fuel kilometers from the western sahara, the refugees, gaps in kingdom. we are, we are see, you are hearing that there is a real dire, you know, humanitarian conditions. but for, for, for many big people, your people are eager to re fit in the kingdom president for this no, the actually into the counsel in doors or are or in the plan are imprisoned.

so we didn't the hearts of the ways we can see it in the western sahara in the moroccan, western sahara where the people who are actually enrolled in the, in the, in the spanish fences. so i don't go in line with those who say that people have not, that's morocco has not won the hearts of this week because one has to go to a to, to morocco, to western sahara with their own. i forget how you could give us an idea as well, from your perspective what life is like in western sahara for the people who live there. and indeed, for people in the camps and tentative one day, the people listen to how has been forced to live because there is a separation wall with millions of land mines. this is the territory to west and east of the separation wall. people live in and deliberate,

the territories on the fridge occur. so of course i had always live in and look by to the trees and the future, the population, and the people desire to different terms. of course, when it comes to demographic engineering, and then we're going to transfer specially, know when marco has been sent in thousands of thousands of circular into the city for decades of it took a patient that has made to say hello is minority and occupied territories. and new capacities backs in relation to the autonomy jennifer russia now and here it comes with what i think that to you and, and us all the, with those claims to defend international law are very difficult spot to when they claim defend international law. what they accept and turn on the plan proposed by russia for don't boston or don't. it's called crimea that occupies right now. it would not be the case and defended, national know should be everywhere on all the time. and when it comes to wisdom. so

how the case is not really different, it is a military hostile occupation that is ongoing for the kids and must be, must be, must be aimed at. pearl could be an i'll be and i look at by empower and with his, his, it's taught the, the 1st mistake and negotiate and on, given on the plan we should go back suppose to define in which capacity you can provide or propose and autonomy. now you have no legal standards to make such a proposal out for, for this i had always of course, when it comes to here will i situation in the camps? i'm not it, it is a rose and i'm a good situation, but will attain being part of the organization actor in the potters just so that i know that in our major strategies and both. so how is starting from false

allegiance impose long the people in order to access birth or to access the fish their own active sources. they have to swear allegiance to the moral can occupation . we have the african me because i think she's got some comments festival. yes, mean this, this comparison between western sahara and ukraine, it comes up quite a lot by people in support of the policy. sorry. do you, do you think it's a fair comparison? well, no, it's totally different. again, i don't know that the western sahara of the, the occupation of the western american western sahara did not start in 1975 or even before the creation of the, of the police are, you know, it started in 1830 by england by france. but by, sorry, by spain, and then the creation of the, sorry came, will be after that. so we have to actually, it's important to go back to the, to the, to the history. and then i'll jerry i came in during the 2nd president to where he

boom agenda decided to counter morocco in every step because of psychological, historical, geographical reasons. one has to go back to the history. now we are seeing that back into, into a, into the back in the past in 18. 95, u. k said in clear cut that the territory of western sahara belonged to morocco. let's go back. let's go to go to fall back in 35 minutes left. i'd like to look in the 89 percent of the people that the un, that members of the security council, they called for a political solution that is aligned with the, the, the plan of a ton of a different them is a by, because it doesn't answer the aspiration, it does not go in line with the aspiration of this a. how many people, again, the representative it, we're not talking about the representative, it is of the. so how is it in do we have also to look at the representative devotee

of the how with who live in, in moroccan, western sahara for the how we and i go align with the guest of from, from london that says that this is a how is will are enrolled in the spanish census, so let's make things clear, and we'll get to the history again. this is very in here. where is the you in and all of this because it is saying it is a disputed region is not falling on one side or the other. it's dropped this plan for a referendum. what more does it need to be doing? but 1st i think i should clarify the un has not brought down to the references, but it said it wouldn't even talk about it any more. well, have it dropped. i think it's clear that it new missions almost impossible to read it again, but also need to recognize is morocco store if you have actually blocked and i guess get marco's. so the points of your people recommended be held

to confirm that. and i also haven't said the us has never said that the economy kind is the only way that this conflict should be result. so how do we move forward? clearly, you know where he was. so there has to be escalation and confidence. building my own advice to give it would be to actually look back at what happens in the early 2 hours when the un personal invoice actually proposed his own coaching proposal. so fine to work with, consult with, with morocco bills and try to determine what would be mutually except for the final . but i think crucially whatever, whatever the us would come up with, it would need to be put to referendum because ultimately on the u. s. point of view,

but this is about is serving equalization of how it will, but also showing the right to stop and 7 nation people were sorry. and this rights can be a right. it means potentially cooperation to marco, potentially who independent 3rd way. what i would call free association between muslims are market kind of a way that, that tries to shoot us our shooting, killing of sovereignty. you can, any of that be, be meant, be met, be, be achieved, if morocco and algeria don't see eye to eye on this issue a complicating factor, but i think we should also clear the policy in morocco not right now. but what i'd also add is a national community, especially european union, and the u. s. i'm calling to pay that they're actually going to the us

for the conditions. ok. that we're going to have to leave our discussion today. i thank you very much, everyone for joining us. he love it. yes. mean, hi, mary, and much of les ha, i'm thank you to very much for what you can see the program again, anytime by visiting our website, that's al jazeera dot com. and to further discussion do gauge well facebook page at facebook dot com forward slash ha inside story. you can know that during the conversation on twitter handle is as a inside story from me. laura kyle: i'm the whole team here is bye for now with ah

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