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in policy from madrid? make a difference. this is inside story. ah . hello there and welcome to the program. i'm nora, kyle, spain and morocco have been at odds for many years. they disagreed at territories, immigration, and support for rebels in the region, but a visit by the spanish prime minister to robots this week is raising hopes of improved ties. the 2 sides have agreed to put aside their differences and expand economic corporation. they signed more than 20 trade and investment agreements on thursday from thing to work together and up hold a policy of what they called mutual respect the summit and the capital mark her 1st high level meeting since 2015. and it comes less than

a year since primacy. petro sanchez backed morocco's plan to grant autonomy to le disputed western sahara territory. the polar, sorry, a separatist group, which once an independent state in the region has rejected that plan. well this, this beat goes back to 1975. that's when the former spanish colony of western sahara was annexed by morocco. its bunk and armed conflict between robot on the plethora of front in 1991. the un steps in hipaa are going to cease fire with a promise of a referendum on independence that has yet to take place. 16 years later, morocco introduced its western sahara autonomy plan to the un. it was rejected by the policy mario maintaining its support for a referendum on independence, moral coke of big diplomatic push in 2020. when then you as president, donald trump recognized that sovereignty over the disputed territory. since then, robots has been trying to gain more international support, particularly across europe. ah,

well, let's go now to our guests and joining us from london is hugh love it, a senior policy fellow european council on foreign relations in kuwait safety is markham, profess guess? mean has now a who teaches political science at the american international university in the q 8 and in brussels is my job may her see the head of the collective us of so worry and human rights defenders are very welcome to all of you. you. why has spain reversed 5 decades of neutrality to back morocco's autonomy plan in the western sahara? well, 1st and foremost, this is about spain trying to restore and improve explanations. over the past few years, i think it's been a pretty rocky relationship over a number of issues. part of this is clearly westerns, our complex sustain,

inability to coordinate immigration control, migration control marker was another key factor. so there's a lot of reasons. spain felt that there was a need to restore this relationship with rocco and ultimately the price of restoring that was the change in position towards to align itself with visioning. it's an interesting move, isn't it? because it's not even supported by most spaniards. and i think the way the spanish government did it, and my niece at the new policy was very problematic in terms of consultation with spanish policy, but also indications, a lack of consultation from, from within the ministries, the mystery itself. and so this was very much political decision that was taken out of political level for political reasons. maybe that was stolen by that

relationship. now it was a pretext for this spanish done to try to use, but this would actually also help ease. but i think it will have the chance to talk about this. when you look on the ground, that does not seem to be the case. absolutely. ok, much, let's get to your reactions to spain's move a political decision. but one of the ramifications for the people in western sahara . well, this is, this is a position taken by censored by ministers pain, which was rejected by overwhelming majority in the parliament and even even with his own political party. this visits, for instance, has his vice president refused to join him for this visit to, to do a counter offer to sell it to you the position taken by citizens towards the question with her and violation or break. and the consistent consensus

position of spain didn't do it indicate specially personally when we know that as this post or listens to harass historically, it is possible for the causation of not completing the quantization process. and listeners to holler and legally responsible as it is and the name is the minister in power and occupied. it was a capability that cannot be transferred to international law from folks spectrum's . the history of the page itself under the spanish betrayal to the people reproduce itself. and basically this a highly people called in for, for, for, for spain to resume for responsibility. and a lot of people listen so harder to see the express and decide what's your political future and under the u. s. surprises the autonomy plan that was

proposed by monroe coach and i'm quite sure no one who claim to support it knows what it is actually in track. no one knows what told me be channels of fiction, not on the plan, nor the constitution on the machine. and local laws or cannot accommodate folks. what's your proposal? ok, please just give me a jump in the because clearly yes, mean morocco is welcomed, the support from spain. but what difference does it actually make on the ground as my job said, what actually is the autonomy plan? this is now got spain's backing. and is it going to allow it to move forward a tool being give us an idea of what we're talking about here? well, 1st of all, i'm going to talk about spain and why spain has decided to make the move 1st goal within a week international law at the security council. many of the members of the security

council have endorsed the autonomy plan, so i don't think that they don't know what's inside the autonomy plan. we don't want to thank you if, because we don't know what's inside on the plan. so do do talent. so it's nice to report to dbhdd the judicial administrative management to the how we've had our population and the american sovereignty and the, the, it was a, it was clear to crystal clear and the there were like many resolutions that in tor endorsed the autonomy plan at the, the powers like the united states, spain, germany, and the members of the security council, the endorse the autonomy plan. now i think that spain understood well where it's interest lie and made sure that morocco is a threat, strategic partner and decided to actually leave these cold war ideology behind by working with moral court and deciding because they know everyone knows that

these dispute is not between the police higher, you know, it's between algeria and, and morocco. and the proof is that jerry was cited in more than 30 lucian 5 times at the un resolution. and more than 89 percent of the un member states endorsed the autonomy the autonomy plan. now i think that what is happening now in the world is that morocco is gaining momentum not only at the security council, but at the level of the african union, and at the level of the european union. we have seen that at the european union, the 3 center reports that the 2022 report actually have a morocco in actually in use in actually the resources for benefits of the population. ok. so i'm not at all done at all that's going into them. so that's what a glance when does springs backing, does it signify a momentum that morocco is building for support for this or tanami plan for giving

the is so worried the right to rule. but under morocco's sovereignty, that seems to be the key issue of this autonomy plan. is that something that the european union is supporting that you're saying other countries getting behind clearly there is support and mark was on on denial. what they did was actually come out even more strongly in support of it's up until then most members of the us institute council has said that yes, it was a good basis to negotiate and that was the only basis. but i think this is quite important because while there is kwansa and your colleagues, members of the us security council, european union also. and you have to be in agreement that acceptable to both has to be in the go sheet agreement. i think this is the problem. you're open at the, the policy mario and people will not accept the autonomy. and so

yes, you can come out and support it if you're us. that's when you get that far in negotiations with get what i said is basically need you down because not acceptable. might want to do this. how can you actually, you know, try to bridge the gap between rocco's proposal and also the proposal which it put all in 2007 at the same time? well, so much of that sets off you that question. how is the gap bridged between the autonomy plan and the policy, sorry, is demands? well, actually that is only one gap and acceptance to, to freely allow the hiring people to choose. and as the police are said to include that as an option. but then the final call should be the so how people's call and decisions should be taken freely by the harvest. but to, to come back to,

to the time and plan which, which means and clear of course to everyone. and we have seen how donald trump before leaving the office declare, declared its support to it. and now the same happening with sanchez as we are now in an election year in spain. and this position was, was, was widely rejected by, by spanish political parties. and by the spanish people to, to, to come to, to, to, to a conclusion. any position that goes in contradiction with international role as it applies to her. since her will contribute only to intensifying or, or increase in the stuff or in the territory. this double lies in that region and the entire entire people off. it lets us be clear here that, that was sent to her. and the position of the space for houston is outside the

common policy that you, as we have seen, boils for declaration of about 30 minutes supported to process. in the same time, we swear we should not ignore the, you know, and decisions made by the highest court of justice. and that came with the main conclusions. western america are separate and distinct territories. morocco has no so that it was sent to her, and the 2 deals between the you and moral cannot be legal without obtaining the consent or the sour people. and if that applies on the plunder of natural resources, western sahara, i think that pretty supplies to when it comes to decision, replace the confusion of the people that i understand that that is the, the staunch of the policy, sorry. but given the reality on the ground with seeing morocco making these diplomatic advances. so once the posts are as response to that, how does it, how will it counter it? offer an alternative? what exactly?

that's the major question. but the pl decided has to do with, and we have seen, we have tunnel the luck, new to the congress of the police have you couple of weeks ago where the 1st time when you saw you had to candidates for, for the presidency of public and police on the front it went of course and i'm reading you atmosphere, but at the end it's a good experience that we have experienced and took and at the southern point he started on the other side. what push, how you can offer is, is basically what, what do you and has proposed is engage. and in a serious political talks that put a, puts a clear map with a determined deadlines for the implementation of the political process and understand them and listen. so we have seen the local choice to win time,

the only contribution to beacon the says file annex and explore territory. and now we have the ongoing again and, and wisdom, so also being signing for those 2 years on the peace process. this comes, of course, as a result of the failure of the international community, mainly the security council and implementing its own that is lucian's, a poem listed for 2 years. this could not be implemented. i think this a house is not to be blamed or full for which in that long know for, for, has been have been having get into the of the, of the, of the way. do you and deals with the processing was? yes, me. yes. mean, i want to just bring you back in here because it does seem very clear that the policy is, is not going to accept this or tanami plan. and therefore, is not the only way for to give the people of western sahara the right to choose their own future. well actually when talking about the representative

to here, i think that all the time the we are mention in the are mentioned in the some are mentioning that the representative of this issue are the people who live in kinder camps. how about the people who live in the moroccan western sahara, the population there is more than 80 percent of the her always who live in the western having american western, how are they actually they enjoy the day they participate in the economics or political level. so actually they gave their word, they wanted to be part of, of morocco. so the rubric it was, it was clear cut. and that's why we have seen that the united nations decided to bury the referendum as it doesn't go along with the aspiration of the. so i don't think i should say a number of points that i could see here is disagreeing with what there were

present. only you respond to that and then can come back to you in a moment. when you look at the history of the un dot p process and you could, you cancelled integrations and you, engine resolutions, people who have to decide other people whether they live in west or into the side and doing like ninety's and a 2000. there was quite a determinant series process to register. what are we able to participate in a future referendum on the human offices? i think we need to be, it's not about those who reside what it's about people, which is a very turn on the international with all these people that will have to decide and, and this what the subject of the rocket so recognized. absolutely.

ok. so people in the west and our region and the refugees living in camps in algeria isn't not the case. yes, mean that morocco quite simply has failed to win the hearts and minds of all of these people. and that's why we're in the predicament that it's in today. well i don't think that a morocco, it's important or i don't think that morocco i'm sure that we have not failed to win the hearts of the hallways at more than 80 percent of the local population that we live. and there are the moroccan sovereignty. they propose they vote, they are members of the political parties. they participate. so i think whereas in fuel kilometers from the western sahara, the refugee camps intended we are, we are see, you are hearing that there is a real dire, you know, humanitarian conditions. but for, for many big people, your people are eager to re fit in the team to present this no,

actually into the counsel in doors or are or in the plan are imprisoned. so we didn't the hearts of the ways we can see it in the western sahara in the moroccan, western sahara where the people who are actually enrolled in the, in the, in the spanish fences. so i don't go in line with those who say that people have not, that's morocco has not won the hearts of this week because one has to go to a to, to morocco, wisdom to see what their own eyes on how we believe you could give us an idea as well, from your perspective, what life is like in western sahara for the people who live there. and indeed for people in the comes in to do one day the people listen to how i have been forced to live. because there is a separation wall with millions of land, my territory to west and east of the separation wall. people

live in and deliberate the territories on that if you can. so of course i had always live in and look by to the trees and the future, the population, and the people desire to different terms. of course, when it comes to demographic engineering, and we're going to transfer personally know when marco has been sent in thousands of thousands of circular until the 24 decades of it took a patient that has made the salaries minority and occupied territories in new capacities. back in the relation to the autonomy jennifer russia now and here it comes with what i think that to you and, and us all the, with the claims to defend international law are very difficult spot to when they claim defend international law. what they accept and turn on the plan proposed by russia for don boss, or don, it's called crimea, that occupies right now. it would not be the case and defended national no should be everywhere on all the time. and when it comes to wisdom. so how the case is not

really different, it is a military hostile occupation that is ongoing for the kids must be, must be, must be aimed at. pearl could be an i'll be in and look at by empower and with his, his is taught the, the, the 1st mistake and negotiate and on, given on the plan we should go back suppose to define in which capacity you can provide or propose anatomic. now you have no legal standards to make such a proposal out for, for this i had always of course, when it comes to here will i situation in the camps? i'm not, it, it is a rose and i'm a good situation, but will attain being part of the organization active in the capacitors of them so that i know that there are major strategies and both. so how is starting from false

allegiance impose long the people in order to access birth or to access the fish their own active sources. they have to swear allegiance to the moral can occupation . we have the african me make sure she's got some comments on seeing what does that sensible guess mean this, this comparison between western sahara and ukraine it comes up quite a lot by people in support of the policy. sorry, do you, do you think it's a fair comparison? well, no, it's totally different. again, either you know, the western sahara of the, the occupation of the western american western sahara did not start in 1975 or even before the creation of the, of the police are you? it started in 1830 by england, by france, by, sorry, by spain. and then the creation of the, sorry came, will be after that. so we have to actually, it's important to go back to the, to the,

to the history. and then i'll jerry i came in during the 2nd president to where he boom agenda decided to counter morocco in every step because of psychological, historical, geographical reasons. one has to go back to the history. now we are seeing that back into, into a, into the back in the past in 18. 95, u. k said in clear cut that the territory of western sahara belonged to morocco. let's go back and let us not to fall back in 35 minutes left. i'd like to look in the 89 percent of the people that the un, that members of the security council, they called for a political solution that is aligned with the, the, the plan of a ton of the river. and them is a by because it doesn't answer the aspiration, it does not go in line with the aspiration of this the, how the people, again the representative it, we're not talking about the representative. it is of the. so how is it in do we

have also to look at the representative as t v of the had always lived in, in moroccan, western sahara for the how we and i go align with the guest of from, from london that says that this is a how is, will, are enrolled in the spanish sense is so let's make things clear and we'll get to the history again, this is very in here. where is the you in and all of us because it is saying it is a disputed region is not falling on one side or the other. it's dropped this plan for a referendum. what more does it need to be doing? but 1st i think i should clarify the un has not for the reference, but it said it wouldn't even talk about it any more. well, have dropped. i think it's clear that it needs current emissions almost impossible for me to read it again, but also need to recognize that is morocco. your story, if you have actually, and i say marco is so about the points of your people been

recommended to be held to to confirm that. and i also happen to us has never said that morocco's economy time is the only way that this complex should be result. so how do we move forward? clearly, you know where he was. so there has to be escalation and confidence building my own advice to give it would be to actually look back at what happens in the early 2 hours when the un personal invoice actually proposed his own coaching proposal. so fine to work with, consult with with morocco and to try to determine what would be mutually acceptable . i think crucially, whatever, whatever the us would come up with. it would need to be put to referendum because ultimately on the u. s. u. but this is about,

is serving the colonization of how it was just but also showing the right nation of people working. and this right can be a right. it means potentially through cooperation to marco, potentially, to independence or the 3rd way. what i would call free association between muslims are market kind of a way that, that tries to, to shoot us our shooting, killing of sovereignty. you can any of that be, be meant, be met, be, be achieved, if morocco and algeria don't see eye to eye on this issue a complicating factor, but i think we should also clear that this is paul. sorry, rocko not right now. but what i'd also add is a national community, especially european union, and the u. s. i'm calling because they're actually going to the us

for the conditions. ok. that we're going to have to leave our discussion today. i thank you very much everyone for joining us. he love it. yes, mean. hi, mary and much of les ha, i'm thank you too. very much for watching. can see the program again any time visiting our website. that's al jazeera dot com, and it's got to go to facebook page at facebook dot com forward slash ha inside story. you can also during the conversation on twitter handlers as a j inside story. for me, laura: kyle: i'm the whole team here is bye for now with ah,

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