just produce yet more rain, i suspect in that part of the world as it pakistan's her quality in the horn, islam. but it's not for the good. it may be, it'll improve of the next day or so because you see rain or snow, that means the airs, at least mixing. ah, i care about help you with engaging with the rough, the world. we're really interested in taking you into a play. you might not visit otherwise and feel as if you were there. the american people have spoken. but what exactly did they say? is the world looking for a whole new border with america in it? is the woke agenda on the decline in america. how much is social media companies know about you? and how easy is it to manipulate the quizzical look us politics? the bottom line, spain's prime minister made a visit to morocco this week. if government has agreed to support for other plans to grant or ptolemy the dispute in western sahara territory,

but will this change in policy from madrid? make a difference? this is inside story. ah . hello there and welcome to the program. i'm nora. kyle: spain and morocco have been at odds for many years. they disagreed a territories, immigration, and support for rebels in the region. but a visit by the spanish prime minister to robots this week is raising hopes of improved ties. the 2 sides have agreed to put aside that differences and expand economic corporation. they signed more than 20 trade and investment agreements on thursday from going to work together and up hold a policy of what they called mutual respect. the summit and the capital marks are 1st high level meeting since 2015, and it comes less than

a year since primacy. petro sanchez backed morocco's plan to grant autonomy to the disputed western sahara territory. the police audio separatist group which wants an independent state and the region has rejected that plan. well, this dispute goes back to 1975. that's when the former spanish colony of weapons, the horror was amex by morocco, its bunk and armed conflict between robot and the post. sorry a front in 1991. the u. n. stepped in, hit broke, a cease fire with a promise of a referendum on independence that has yet to take place. 16 years later, morocco introduced its western sahara autonomy plan to the un. it was rejected by the policy mario maintaining its support for a referendum on independence, rural coke of big diplomatic push in 2020. when then you as president, donald trump recognize that so frenzy over the disputed territory. since then, robots has been trying to gain more international support, particularly across europe. ah,

well, let's go now to our guests. and joining us from london is hugh lovett, a senior policy fellow european council on foreign relations into 850 is malcolm profess guess, mean has valley who teaches political science at the american international university in the q 8 and in brussels. is my job may her of the, the head of the collective us, of so worry, human rights defenders are very welcome to all of you q. why has spain reversed 5 decades of neutrality to back morocco's autonomy plan in the western sahara? well 1st and foremost, this is about spain trying to restore and improve explanations. with rocco, over the past few years, i think it's been a pretty rocky relationship over a number of issues. part of this is clearly westerns, our complex ability to coordinate immigration

control, migration control marker with another pattern. so there's a lot of reasons staying felt that there was a need to restore this relationship with rocco and ultimately the price of restoring. that was the change in position towards i went into it with us division. it's an interesting move, isn't it? because it's not even supported by maced spaniards and i think the way the spanish government is it and my niece at some point he was very problematic in terms of consultation with spanish policies, but also by one indication, a lack of consultation from, from within the ministry the mystery itself, and so this was very much political decision that was taken out of political level for political reasons. maybe that was still in the relationship. now it was

a pretext to this spanish going to try to use, but this would actually also help ease. but i think it will have the chance to talk about this. when you look on the ground, that does not seem to be the case. absolutely. ok, much, let's get your reactions to spain's move a political decision. but one of the ramifications for the people in western sahara . well, this is, this is a position taken by censored by ministers pain, which was rejected by overwhelming majority in the parliament and even even with his own political party. this visits, for instance, has, his vice president refused to join him. what is it to you to do a quarter of a salad to you know, the position taken by citizens towards the question with her and violation or break. and the consistent consensus position of spain didn't do it indicate

specially personally when we know that as this post or listens to harass historically, it is possible for the declaration of not completing the conversation process and listeners to holler and legally responsible as it is. and that means the minister in power and occupied it was a compatibility that cannot be transferred to international law from folks to hope or spectrum's the history of the page itself under the spanish betrayal to the people. little juice itself. and basically this a highly people called in for, for, for, for spain to resume for responsibility. and a lot of people listen so harder to see the express and decide what to political future. and under the you answer the autonomy plan that was proposed

by monroe coach and i'm quite shoes and no one who claim to support it knows what it is. actually in track, no one knows what told me be channels of fiction, not on the plan, nor the constitution on the machine and local laws or cannot accommodate folks. what's your proposal? ok, please just give me a chance to jump in the because clearly yes, mean morocco is welcomed, the support from spain. but what difference does that actually make on the ground as my job said, what actually is the autonomy plan? this is now got spain's backing, and is it going to allow it to move forward a tool being give us an idea of what we're talking about here? well, 1st of all, i'm going to talk about spain and why spain has decided to make the move 1st goal within international law. at the security council, many of the members of the security council have endorsed the autonomy plan,

so i don't think that they don't know what's inside the autonomy plan. okay. we don't have time to call us because we don't know what's inside on the car. so do do talent, so it's nice to report to dbhdd the judicial administrative management to the we've had our population and the american sovereignty and the, the, it was a, it was clear to crystal clear and the there were like many resolutions that in tor endorsed the autonomy plan at the, the powers like the united states, spain, germany, and the members of the security council, the endorse the autonomy plan. now i think that spain understood well where it's interest lie and made sure that morocco is a strategic partner and decided to actually leave these cold war ideology behind by working with moral court and deciding because they know everyone knows

that the these dispute is not between the police higher, you know, it's between algeria and, and morocco. and the proof is that jerry was cited in more than $35.00 times at the un resolution. and more than 89 percent of the un member states endorse the autonomy, the autonomy plan. now i think that what is happening now in the world is that morocco is gaining momentum not only at the security council, but at the level of the african union, and at the level of the european union. we have seen that at the european union, the 3 center reports that the 2022 report actually have a morocco in actually in use in actually the resources for benefits of the population. ok. so i'm not at all done at all that's going into them. so it's one glance, when does the space backing? does it signify a momentum that morocco is building for support for this or tanami plan for giving

the so worries the right to rule. but under morocco's sovereignty, that seems to be the key issue of this autonomy plan. is that something that the european union is supporting that you're saying other countries getting behind clearly there is support the mark was on, on denial. what they did was actually come out even more strongly in support this up until then most members of the un security council has said that yes, it was a good basis to negotiations and that was the only basis. i think this is quite important because while there is kwansa and your colleagues, members of the us security council, european union also and you have to be successful to both has to be in the go sheet agreement. and i think this is the problem. the ultimately, the, sorry, oh and people will not accept the autonomy. and so yes,

you can come out and support it if you're us, that doesn't. when you get that far in negotiations with what i said is basically need you down because not acceptable. the my point of view is how can you actually, you know, try to bridge the gap between rocco's proposal and also the proposal which it puts in 2007 at the same time. well, so much of it's, let's ask you that question. how is the gap bridged between the autonomy plan and the policy, sorry, is demands? well, actually that is only one guy. and that is of acceptance to, to freely allow the hiring people to choose. and as, as the police are said to include that as an option, but then the final call should be the so how people's call and decisions should be

taken freely by the harvest. but to, to come back to, to the time and plan which, which means and clear of course to everyone. and we have seen how donald trump before the real office declare, declared its support to it. and now the same happening with such shows as we are now in an election year in spain. and this position was, was, was widely rejected by, by spanish political parties, and by the spanish people, to, to, to come to, to, to, to a conclusion. any position that goes in contradiction with international bo, as it applies to her, since her will contribute only to intensifying or, or increase in the stuff or in the territory. this double lies in the region and the entire entire people off. it lets us be clear here that that was sent to her and the position of the spanish williamson is outside. the common policy of you,

as we have seen boils a declination of about 30 minutes supported to process. in the same time, we swear we should not ignore the, you know, and this isn't meant by the highest court of justice in the test came with the main conclusions. western america are separate and distinct territories. morocco has no . so going to western sahara and the 2 deals between the you and moral cannot be legal without obtaining the consent or the sour people. and if that applies on the plunder of natural resources, western sahara, i think that pretty supplies to when it comes to a decision, we're political fission of the people who are so says that i understand, i understand that that is the, the stance of the policy area but given the reality on the ground, we're seeing morocco making these diplomatic advances. so what's the positive response to that? how does it, how will it counter it or offer an alternative?

what exactly, that's the major question, but the policy has to deal with and we have seen we have tunnel the last new to the congress of the police have you couple of weeks ago when the 1st time when you saw you had to candidates for, for the presidency of public kind of police on the front. it went of course and upgrading you atmosphere. but at the end it's a good experience that we have experienced and took and at the southern point it started on the other side. what push, how you can offer is, is basically what, what do you and has proposed is engage and in a serious political talks that put, puts a clear map with a determined deadlines for the implementation of the political process and understand them and listen. so we have seen that local choice to wind times the

only contribution to beacon the says file annex and explore territory. and now we have ongoing again and, and wisdom, so also being signing for those 2 years on the peace process. this comes, of course, and the result of the failure of the international community, mainly the security council and implementing its own that is lucian's, a poem listed for 2 years. this could not be implemented. i think this a house or not to be blamed or full for which in that long know for, for, has been have been having get into the of the, of the, of the way. do you and deals with the processing was to me, asked me to just bring you back in here because it does seem very clear that the plethora is, is not going to accept this will autonomy plan and therefore is not the only way for to give the people of western sahara the right to choose their own future.

well actually when talking about the representative to here, i think that all the time the we are mention in the are mentioned in the some are mentioning that the representative of this issue are the people who live in kinder camps. how about the people who live in the moroccan western sahara, the population there is more than 80 percent of her always who live in the western having american western how are they actually they enjoy the day they participate in the economics or political level. so actually they gave their word, they wanted to be part of, of morocco. so the rubric it was, it was clear cut. and that's why we have seen that the united nations decided to bury the referendum as it doesn't go along with the expiration of this week. i don't think if i should say a number of points that i could see here is disagreeing with what they were

presented to me. just leave you respond to that and then can come back to you in a moment. when you look at the history of the un dot p process and you execute the council deliberations and you engine with the resolutions people who have to decide other people whether they live in west or into the side and doing like ninety's and a 2000 there was quite a determinant series process to register. what are we able to participate in a future referendum on the human offices? i think we need to be. it's not about those who reside what it's about that people are, which is a very turn on the international with all these people that will have to decide and, and that's what the subject of the rocket so recognized. absolutely.

okay, so people in the west and our region and the refugees living in camps in algeria, is it not the case? yes, mean that morocco quite simply has failed to win the hearts and minds of all of these people. and that's why we're in the predicament that it's in today. well, i don't think that a morocco, it's important or i don't think that morocco i'm sure that we have not failed to win the hearts of this a. how is more than 80 percent of the local population that we live? and there are the moroccan sovereignty, they propose they vote, they are members of the political parties, they participate. so i think whereas in fuel kilometers from the western sahara, the refugees, gaps in kingdom. we are, we are see, you are hearing that there is a real dire, you know, humanitarian conditions. but for, for many big people, your people are eager to re fit in the tend to present resist, no,

actually into the can. so in boars or are or in the me plant are imprisoned. so we didn't the hearts of the ways we can see it in the western sahara in the moroccan, western sahara where the people who are actually enrolled in the, in the, in the spanish fences. so i don't go in line with those who say that people have not. morocco has not won the hearts of this week because one has to go to a to, to morocco, to western sahara with their own. i forget how we believe you could give us an idea as well, from your perspective what life is like in western sahara for the people who live and indeed for people in the camps and tentative one day the people listen to how has been forced to live statistics because there is a separation wall with millions of land mines. this is the territory to west and east of the separation wall. people live in and deliberate,

the territories or the fridge occur. so of course is always live in the book by to the trees and the future, the population, and the people desire to different terms. of course, when it comes to demographic engineering and then we're going to transfer specially knowing marco has been sent in thousands and thousands of circular into the city for decades. of it took a patient that has made to say hello is minority and occupied territories and new capacities. back in relation to the autonomy jennifer russia now and here it comes with what i think that to you and, and us all the, with those claims to defend international law are very difficult spot to when they claim defend international law. what they accept and turn on the plan proposed by russia for don't boss or don't. it's called crimea that occupies right now. it would not be the case and defending the national know should be everywhere on all

the time and when it comes to us. and so the case is not really different, it is a military hostile occupation that is ongoing for the kids and must be, must be, must be aimed at pearl. could the nines be in and look at by empower and with his his is taught the, the 1st mistake and negotiate and on, given on the, on the plan we should go back suppose to define in which capacity you can provide or propose and autonomy. now you have no legal standards to make such a proposal out for, for this i had always of course, when it comes to here will i situation in the camps? i'm not meant that it is rose and i'm a good situation, but will attain being part of the organization active in the fighters just so that i know that there are major strategies and both. so how is starting from false

allegiance impose long the people in order to access birth or to access the fish their own active sources. they have to swear allegiance to the moral can occupation . we have the african me because i think she's got some comments festival. yes, mean this, this comparison between western sahara and ukraine, it comes up quite a lot by people in support of the policy. sorry. do you, do you think it's a fair comparison? well, no, it's totally different. again, i don't know that the western sahara of the, the occupation of the western american western sahara did not start in 1975 or even before the creation of the, of the police are, you know, it started in 1830 by england by france. but by, sorry, by spain, and then the creation of the, sorry came, will be after that. so we have to actually, it's important to go back to the, to the,

to the history. and then i'll jerry i came in during the 2nd president to where he boom agenda decided to counter morocco in every step because of psychological, historical, geographical reasons. one has to go back to the history. now we are seeing that back into, into a, into the back in the past in 18. 95, u. k. said in clear cut that the territory of western sahara belong to morocco. let's go back and let us not to fall back in 35 minutes left. yet i would like to look to note the 89 percent of the people that the un, that members of the security council, they called for a political solution that is aligned with the, the, the plan of a ton of a different them is a by, because it doesn't answer the aspiration, it does not go in line with the aspiration of this a how we people, again the representative it, we're not talking about the representative. it is of the so how is it in do we have

also to look at the representative devotee of the how with who live in, in moroccan, western sahara for the how we and i go align with the guest of from, from london that says that this is a how is will are enrolled in the spanish census. so let's make things clear and we'll get to the history again, this is very in here. where is the you in and all of us because it is saying it is a disputed region is not falling on one side or the other. it's dropped this plan for a referendum. what more does it need to be doing? but 1st i think i should clarify the un has not valid for the reference, but it said it wouldn't even talking about it any more. well, have it dropped. i think it's clear that it needs current emissions almost impossible for me to read it again, but also need to recognize rocco, your story, if you have actually bought that, and i guess get marco's. so the points of your people

recommended be held to confirm that. and i also haven't pushed back to the us has never said that the economy kind is the only way that this complex should be result . so how do we move forward? clearly, you know where he was. so there has to be escalation and confidence building my own advice to give it would be to actually look back at what happens in the 2 hours when the un personal invoice actually proposed his own coaching proposal. so fine to work with, consult with, with morocco bills and try to determine what would be mutually acceptable. but i think crucially whatever, whatever the un would come up with it would need to be put to referendum because ultimately on the u. s. u. but this is about is serving equalization of

how it will but also showing the right to nation of people working. and this right can be a right. it means potentially cooperation, tomato, potentially to independence or the 3rd way. what i would call free association between muslims are market kind of a way that tries to shoot us our shooting, shooting of sovereignty. you can any of that be, be meant, be met, be, be achieved, if morocco and algeria don't see eye to eye on this issue a complicating factor, but i think we should also clear that this is paul. sorry, rocko not right now. but what i'd also add is a national community, especially european union, and the u. s. nicole rhodes. they're actually going to the u. s.

conditions. ok, that we're going to have to leave our discussion today. i thank you very much, everyone for joining us. he love it. yes, mean house movie and much of les ha, i'm thank you to very much for what you can see the program again, any time by visiting our website that's out there, or dot com. and to further discuss and do go to our facebook page at facebook dot com forward slash ha inside story. you can also during the conversation on twitter handle is as a inside story from me laura kyle: i'm the whole team here is bye for now with ah long with

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