particular sudden, tanzania may be parts in malawi and the eastern side of madagascar where rain looks particularly heavy. ah. from the al jazeera london rural car center to people in thoughtful conversation, people use the lowest get agreement. they describe the outsider with no haste and no limitation. the difference between a migrant and refugee is truly a choice. when you are reppidy, you are forced to flee part one of asthma khan and hasn't had what has happened a lot in the west is that culture and food is separated. hudy ab unscripted on out his era. russia's foreign minister visits african countries to shore up support. that's as the wagner group expands its operations on the continent. so as moscow's increasing security presence in africa, a threat to us and french influence,

this is inside story. ah hello, welcome to the program, i'm adrian finnegan. so gay lumber off is visiting molly this week in the 1st official trip by a russian foreign minister to the west african nation. molly's giantess turned to moscow to help it fight armed groups and fighters from the wagner group have replaced troops from the former colonial power france. wagner is a private military organization run by an ally of president vladimir putin. of now operates in several african countries. is moscow extending its reach in africa at the expense of western powers? we go to our panel just a moment, but 1st, a report from laura con. russia's foreign minister is on his 2nd trip to the african continent in 2 months. circ

a laugh rock is shoring up. the port is relations deteriorate with the west over the worn ukraine on sunday. and just one day before the scheduled touchdown of russian foreign minister laboratory flight and bomber co, bonnie expelled the head of the un human rights mission. a disorder government decline the government's decision to declare the head of municipal human rights section, persona non grata. as a consequence, he must leave the country within 48 hours. molly's military rulers have been turning to moscow since they came to power in the 2020 coo and following a diplomatic rupture with the former colonial power france loss. here, paris withdrew its troops from a region ending operation barcode, and it's been battling on groups there since 2013. this left a gap which allowed russian fighters from the volcanic group to help combat armed groups in 2018 al jazeera and met russian fighters from wagner. training

photos from the central african republic. it's also been operating in libya, molly, mozambique and saddam. during a speech in eritrea lover of showed the russia would be a bullock of economic support in africa, hulu. no hybrid was of the waste, including in ukraine, will be able to stop the development of new centers of economic power, financial and political influence. this nap results the un though to march shows how divided african nations were in condemning rushes invasion of ukraine. 28 voted in favor. 8 didn't vote. and 17 abstained. that included south africa, which has historically strong relations with russia and the for the soviet union. in january law for of announce upon from military trails, with russia and china, the will form the anniversary of the war in ukraine. russia struggle against western powers is playing out in africa as it drums up strategic support. turning

it into a diplomatic playground. laura han inside story al jazeera. ah, let's brand our guess for today's discussion from moscow were joined by a saga markov who is director of the institute of political studies from ankara of a great, a gray go. who's a policy analyst with consultancy development reimagined that focuses on africa and in paris were joined by jesse and vba is a fellow at the german marshall fund of the united states. warm welcome at to you all so okay, let's start with you. what does russia want in africa? does it want access to mineral resources? does it want business for russian companies, military partnerships, to humiliate former colonial powers in africa? all of those? or is it just that it needs all the friends it can get at the moment? i think all those, those goals,

which you mentioned about very little of all are famous most effective in the book private miniature company, bargainer making you said business they make and military consultant to monitor government to central africa. the republicans government tool book. and i saw government from us, it says their business getting mine from also because of strategic needed to consideration that was money, got my partner. and then those are actual bids and group kind of have different concepts and to get some money. also because branded relation between russia and the government can develop come on the ration with money. and so we've got some additional price,

great to send to so great, and some of us and them that france is twice a friend and by rational behavior, it's not to be pragmatic, but also pleasing. think from our point, brands, friends now is enemy is brand is part of what you have . so we've been killed and crashed and sold just and support several or against the pro ration. but it says in your grades and more programs to press this, like i was opposed to say, hey, did you say that the france is killing russian soldiers in the ukraine? yes, sir. because frances giving us

a work when they asked officers who are you? are all in stockton, or ukrainian very, pretty 0 again. that's us. ok. i don't really want to get bogged down in ukraine this, this discussion about about africa at the moment. i just wanted you to verify that that remark. yeah, a vaguely let's, let's, let's put this to you then what, what is russia doing in africa right now when it's engagement bring about the piece, the development that many of the countries that it has security partnerships with want here. i think if we go back to the 2019 because it is such a huge you see, you see the science of what process we're trying to achieve. what content is put under buttoned up from 2019 because that new, predict the, the warning and ukraine and about for african if it were present. and you could see from the totally communication that russia is indeed very keen on forming in strong

collision with african countries and political relations, an edge security, and so forth. but at the moment, one on one of the clear one of the clint needs there are so we really want to maintain, at least, or even to shop is influence on the content. because post the mission of ukraine does little need for us to have friends to avoid it as a leash on africa, countries. but how the country, the continent or the split in the country speaking, how further would have, wouldn't be neutral or oil against your solution that we saw in the u. n. g in march in the last last down on, on what? so i think i was very important for russia because the war goes on there is like to be more and more of the incidents where there is need for friends and allies of

what's in accordance with his position also. but not on the sunday dinner. and i'm a kid, it's almost by russia, both african countries themselves because new york times, i'm coming putting going in africa. the debit card that you have to play out of both of those africa countries have legitimate interest to russia as well, but got a job security team. but we will see from the part of the cooperation on the security, i think it needs to be seen how, where that from mid morning to must not be cared to. because so far more regime security, even though these are the virus or the, the claim to be, of course, you know, advice in the government in terms of the issues of security of terrorism on that talk much about crimes just in, in paris. russia's foreign minister has wined and dined his way through african capitals in recent months, welcomed by most as an old friend, is the west,

being out maneuvered by russia in africa. well, and france has already made it quite clear last year that the operations of the group in malli, i'm not compatible with the engagement off on with the department of french orsis. and that is also why france withdrew its process from molly that i think that we are overall seeing is shifting pattern in the region. also by, for example, by the fact that the human rights director of the united nation mission for the nation in this ma, has some expelled from mommy. and also that more and more western countries, such as, for example, sweden or the u. k. pepin, withdrawing their forces from living with hours and so indeed, western countries are pulling out here and we see that this is also due either

because they are expelled or because they had the cloud as not why come? because the effective a teeth of civilizations and just not compatible with doing that for me also see in the region overall is that security corporation or leg counterterrorism? civilization look much and look more and more like a couple of competition for geo political influence. so you mentioned the wagner group, what is it doing on the ground in africa that the wagner group stands accused of committing human rights abuses the kremlin? as denies that it has anything to do with its, its presence there. that it, that it's not officially sanctioned by, by russia. it has no legal status internationally. why does russia tolerate its presence there? or can russia not achieve its aims in africa without it?

i think monday dominic has problems with security because thought x and the optical branch, all from the cards are and money government repair to you will see french military french troops up to secure to present security. france was not able to do it and that was digital no, was no plans micro and to use military presenting in monday in the condition. when of the security threat, the money appeared to be not small at the bigger can you can, you can can, can you say that france was able to, can, can, can the wagner group do it? i mean, as i said to you in the question that they're accused of human rights atrocities on the ground. ah, we believe that international organizations reach control and

human rights are issues as they are ridiculous. and they're like, if somebody is going to have more direct cues, for example, you're putting in a government was that sort of lation human. right? it means that it's not on us and for no reason to such as race. and that is the next. it was go months and you know, sometime this new to questions optic to be it's quite cruel and getting us all back and i've come to accept more and more african governments want to divide market not 2000 of the great. what do you make of that? what are the dangers for african states in closing up to russia, particularly the ones who are being propped up by, by russian arms and mercenaries. what i think one of the,

one of the things to start the conversation with is why they are then in the, in the 5th. if, if you, if you go back to no modeling particular line to point that thing, i'm going to append to thing when the issue, the issue of stability was it was, it was really high. we saw, of course, when my been been deployed from 20 to 20 present the very, very much active push on by con. so there is, there is the, there is of course, the logic that if these 2 operations haven't walk out a lot of the, i mean, is my about 15000 back on, on the was done on when we do it about 5000. then the question of con, if you 1000 or some missionaries really do, what about 17000 new troops new couldn't do because if anyone says the current, i think that is being naive or does this dishonest. however,

the african government and so the have this the right on the sovereignty to decide who just security partners should be. and if at this point in time that did, of course being my and is our military lead in government. so they know what war is like, you know, what it is about countries believe that it is a wagner that can provide the clarity what i think will happen without the, in the result book concerning this kill of problems that, that was what we're seeing with africa and in fact, i think it is, it is not, it is not possible that wagner be able to, to provide a kind of comprehensive security with africa. now if that is, if that is the likely outcome, then what are the costs on the cost already? they clear, for instance, you will see the pressure already coming from in the western countries. no, my love to keep out of our go out and that is it got my laptop. i go and then,

well, who seem to the u. s. when you're passing an arc last, last the last it hits our route 71. when i think if the company, my line, russia activity in africa, which us rejected. the southern african women commissioner community are rejected because the concern is that that act is going to create a list of the framework for funding countries. so the, the monthly cost already beauty, nobody for no academic installation is already already happening on evil. what is the countries in the region? i knew both of molly looking are possible. even very big concern in the last us africa. so meet in the us going to president express is concerned. when you mentioned the fact that booking are fossil, i've actually contacted wagner vienna mine barker book and they said that to look at your state which are no longer harvested,

that they wouldn't, they wouldn't contract. it's a result of wagner. so what we're seeing is everyone except the government in wiley and looking at fossil is the concept. but i think the emphasis of the my land government under booking at the government has to be within the region. what do you necessarily think? what do you think is relevant? but i think we're like countries need to be to the 5th priority outside of the country because these problems are not under your region, not solutions just in with africa, increasingly becoming something of a political chessboard. what is europe's game plan? it's long term strategy. does it even have one? and what about the u. s. which is also a guilty of popping up authoritarian regimes and ignoring human rights abuses that i suppose the one advantage that the u. s. has of russia right?

now is, is money which it could, it can throw at africa. so, and fact it's a bit difficult to speak about europe, game name here. because i recall that the competence of the european union, when it comes to current and security policy, your security policy is they're running through the members. so all the decisions i taken been in images, which means that there's very much depends on what national governments prioritize strategies these every, every cap in thank one game game plan. if you want to put a bed on the bed as a one approach. that is why it is shad european. so when you get all letting k is that basically all europeans say that we need a so called connected approach to security, which relies on improving the living condition. and to eliminate for example,

of root causes off instability, which then potentially could also fewer terrorism. and overall, yeah, and more instead of reaching. so the idea is to eliminate that. however, we see that the current situation makes that increasing the difficult for west and countries. even though for a something you have just extend that the madness of its compete capability bending mission in money. but i guess we might see some reconsideration there in the next month, potentially as one at am. the thing is, we also see the trend of france has halted and develop official development 8 and mate 2022. so overall europeans are really reconsidering the approach to the reach, right? well, if i may want to interrupt maybe on the us overall,

and particularly before russia war against ukraine, the us saw african war. and particularly the crisis management of africa support like capability building and saw that particularly as a european with all the military hats in the context of ukraine and also the increased ration activity in the region. i think that the u. s. will approach the question also from la geo political anger and also last think about questions of influence. so again, exclusive resource extraction deals have been central to several security commitments between russia and several african governments. is the kremlin, using africa to financially sustain its special military operation and ukraine? it all, i've got a queer also can say about as each e for,

and the fracture will make some economic to deal with my li, some rational private companies. they will pay taxes to rush and budget and national budget will be used for military ration, but it will take so much time that we i in fact it doesn't talk because it will be the chance we'll finish its military creation. and we're stablish these security ukraine quite quickly during the year and so their money. busy as my business will come on, this war will be over, but you should take an account is that the african country is also very much remember that russia, during all history is or what l war. that's why africans like russians,

they respect russians very want to rely on the russians. and the country is a huge creation with western concert. but sometimes they got some countries as a colon or new colonial country. it's exact. they are actually made message united, say brit than brands and you can come to, they want to establish new colonialism system. ok, great. let's, let's pick up on that. russians i respected in africa, may be, i suppose, given that it's sending weapons to prop up authoritarian regimes and ministry governments. what about the people low? do people in africa see russia as an ally? will russia ultimately become as despised, perhaps, as the former colonial powers. ah,

the younger generation in africa is pretty clear that it sees the future as african democracy. that's how they want to be governed in the future. will they tolerate any russian or, or, or western presence on the continent in the long term. so if you look up, because i've been happening in every scenario, you always find african africans. we've been around flag, i speak into how the supports the income in miniature government. they won't finance with russia just like it progress because there is a lot of positive sentiments towards roger russia on it. it, i would say when the russians up pointing, we moved we because for some reason i've run into into africa. i said by one thing that is very, very low in many, many,

many countries is that our trade is very much negligible. so how, what is so spinning? you know, this friendship, i think a little because we deal with the anti colonial struggle, but also a lot of it has do with the resentment of the way. and that is particularly true when it does it with i think you have a single left front in this in this case. and that's perfectly true for quantity like my lease and i've got 40 on on booking up. so does 5. but also these african generation, of course, when partnerships work, so it's risky in santa rosa is not stepping into the, you know, the security space mall on it is also the risk of failure. and if it feels it is going to manage all of the goodwill that it has in many parts of the country on the read trips or the the really risk of life. and the fact of if. busy this

content like molly and booking of fossil do not have a proper, you know, approach to that looking with countries within the region are giving us, i think because many of the problems that are going to face with i would security with i would political pressure from the with will really be determined by how much buying that in our country the enables. how, because this new re not going to come want to play the political pressure that the west is going to be exhausting on them by the same time district and our country can be the solution to the security challenges that this the brought them into pie and the 5th, okay, she's in, you touched upon it just a few minutes ago. how do you see the that the broader trajectory for european engagement in africa with things such as a development aid, if that stops the cycle of violence that we're seeing in, in many of these countries, the poverty, the poor, living conditions, investment in infrastructure and all that will stop, but it yes, barret,

who's the risk that we can see this trajectory, arbitrary reno. and this is a girl of course, of great concern for europeans because in security and stability of countries in africa also is closely associated with the european security. so the idea of quite some her as a terrorist, strong hollis been eating emerging in malia, but the extremely programmatic fine europe. also, overall instability might call us and new migration on the one hand on the continent which could then further of course, deteriorate living conditions. so there, but also leach, so the need for broad i was calling and this at a time where you are, she is also asked struggling to redesign the migration. so overall,

the situation is i think of great concern for europe and will be botched close me. although things are really dynamic and changing quite quickly, it will be difficult to respond to that really non trans passenger. ok to insure your account for not to be engaged in africa right now. that is difficult to say. and i think it really depends on the conditions on the ground. so i think the french president has made it clear that involvement of wagner group is not compatible with, with french troops. and for example, the german defense minister has recently underlined that that the engagement of the german armed forces in the minute mass. so in the un mission, thus, i could not make sense under the current conditions. so i think there are really

considerations going on that i'm afraid we're going to have to end it. we're out of time many thanks indeed for being with us, all of you. so get mark off in moscow. a vague way of wiggle in ankara and she is in favor in paris. as always, thank you for watching. don't forget you can see the program again at any time by going to the website at our 0 dot com for further discussion. join us at our facebook page, you'll find that at facebook dot com forward slash ha inside story out of course the conversation continues on twitter handle at a jade side story from meet adrian finnegan and the team. here though, how thanks will be with us. we'll see you again. my phone. ah ah.

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