areas of india, the west coast on the east coast, lots of sunshine and settled conditions spreading north. ah, ah, under silence storm. they once prosperous fishing village sinks beneath the mud, parliamentary elections ignite, few survival, re that will determine the future of this defeated and politically divided community. a microcosm reflecting the plight of a nation witness venezuela. a sinking resolution on a jessina rushes foreign minister visits african countries to shore up support. that's as the wagner group expands, it's operations on the continent. so as moscow's increasing security presence in africa, a threat to us and french influence, this is inside story. ah,

hello, welcome to the program, i'm adrian finnegan. so gay lumber off is visiting molly this week in the 1st official trip by a russian foreign minister to the west african nation. molly's giantess turned to moscow to help it fight armed groups and fighters from the wagner group of replaced troops from the former colonial power france. wagner is a private military organization run by an ally of president vladimir putin and now operates in several african countries. is moscow extending its reach africa at the expense of western powers? who go to our panel just a moment, but 1st, a report from laura con. russia's foreign minister is on his 2nd trip to the african continent. in 2 months, sir,

gala ralph is shoring up the port his relations deteriorate with the west over the worn ukraine on sunday. and just one day before the scheduled touchdown of russian foreign minister law prost flight and bomber co, bonnie expelled the head of the un human rights mission. but this is who do government to decline the government's decision to declare the head of ministers, human rights, action persona non grata. as a consequence, he must leave the country within 48 hours. molly's military rulers have been turning to moscow since they came to power in the 2020 coo and following a diplomatic rupture with the former colonial power france loss. here, paris withdrew its troops from a region ending operation barcode, and it's been battling on groups there since 2013. this less a gap which allowed russian fighters from the volcanic group to help combat armed groups. in 2018 al jazeera met russian fighters from wagner training

photos from the central african republic. it's also been operating in libya, molly mozambique, and saddam. during a speech in eritrea lover of showed the russia would be a book of economic support in africa, hulu. no hybrid was of the waste, including in ukraine, will be able to stop the development of new centers of economic power, financial and political influence. this map results the u. s. though to march shows how divided african nations were in condemning russia's invasion of ukraine. 28 voted in favor. 8 didn't vote. and 17 abstained. that included south africa, which has historically strong relations with russia and the for the soviet union. in january, lover of announce upon from military trails, with russia and china, the will form the anniversary of the war in ukraine. russia struggle against western powers is playing out in africa as it drums up strategic support. turning

it into a diplomatic playground. laura han insight story al jazeera ah, let's brain our guess for today's discussion from moscow were joined by a survey markov who is director of the institute of political studies from ankara of a great, a griego, who's a policy analyst with consultancy development reimagined that focuses on africa and in paris were joined by justine. vba is a fellow at the german marshall fund of the united states. one. welcome to you all so okay, let's start with you. what does russia want in africa? does it want access to mineral resources? does it want business for russian companies, military partnerships, to humiliate former colonial powers in africa? all of those? or is it just that it needs all the friends it can get of the moment? i think all those, those goals,

which you mentioned about very little of all are famous most effective in the book private miniature company, bargainer making you said business they make and military consultant to money government, to central africa, the republican government tool book. and i saw government from us, it says their business getting mine from also because of strategic consideration. that was money got my partner. and then those are actually business group kind of have different contexts and to get some money. also because branded relation between russia and the government can develop come on the ration with money. and so we've got

some additional price, great to send to so great, and some of us and them that france is twice a friend and by rational behavior, it's not to be pragmatic, but also pleasing. think from our point press friends now is enemy is around congress. what, what have we been killed and crashed and sold just and support several or against the pro ration, but it says in your grades and more programs to press this, i was gonna say, hey, did you say that the france is killing russian soldiers in the ukraine? yes sir, because a francis given us a work when they asked officers,

who are you? are all in stockton or ukrainian, replaced a souls. okay. i don't really want to get bogged down in ukraine this, this discussion about about africa at the moment. i just wanted you to verify that that remark. yeah, a vaguely let's, let's, let's put this to you then what, what is russia doing in africa right now when it's engagement bring about the piece, the development that many of the countries that it has security partnerships with want here. i think if we go back to the 2019 because it is such a huge you see, you see defiance of, of what process we are trying to achieve. but equally continent on it. but under buttoned up from 2019 because that new predict the, the war in ukraine and about for african if it were present. and you could see from the tone of communication that process is indeed very keen on forming in strong

collision with african countries and political relations, an edge security, and so forth. but at the moment, one on one of the clear one of the clint needs there are so we really want to maintain, at least, or even to shop, is influence on the content. because post the mission of ukraine and little need for us to have friends to avoid it as a leash on africa. countries by how the country, the continent or the split in the country speaking how rather we'd have to be neutral or, or against your solution that we saw in the u. n. g, in much in the last last down on. so i think i was very important for russia. ready because the war goes on, there is like to be more and more of just incidents where there is need for friends and allies of woods in accordance with,

with his position also. but not on the sunday dinner. and i'm a kid. it's almost by russia, both african countries themselves because new york times, i'm coming putting going in africa. the debit card that you have to play out of both of those africa countries have legitimate interest to russia as well, but got a security t. but we will see from the pattern of the cooperation on the security, i think it needs to be seen how, where that from mit, more into must not be cared to. because so far it's more regime security. even though these advisors, as the became to be of course, no advice in the government in terms of the probations of security of terrorism on know that not, not, not crimes. in paris, russia's foreign minister has wined and dined his way through african capitals in recent months, welcomed by most as a, as an old friend, his, the west,

being out maneuvered by russia in africa where france has already made it quite clear last year that the operations of the group in malli, i'm not compatible with the engagement off with the department of french artists, and that is also why france withdrew its hosses from molly that i think that we are overall seeing is shifting pattern in the region. also by, for example, by the fact that the human rights director of the united nation mission for the nation in this ma, has some expelled wrong mommy. and also that more and more western countries, such as, for example, sweden or the u. k. pepin, withdrawing their forces from living with ours. and so indeed, western countries are pulling out here. and we see that this is also due either

because they are expelled or visual, sadly cleared as not why come because effective a teeth of civilizations and just not compatible with doing that for me also see in the region overall is that security corporation or leg counterterrorism civilization look much and look more and more like a couple of competition for geo political influence. so you mentioned the wagner group. what is it doing on the ground in africa that the wagner group stands accused of committing human rights abuses the kremlin? as denies that it has anything to do with its presence there, that it, that it's not officially sanctioned by, by russia. it has no legal status internationally. why does russia tolerate its presence there? or can russia not achieve its aims in africa without it?

i think monday government programs with security because store ex and optical branch or from the cards or and the money government repair to you will french, military, french troops to secure, to present security. france was not able to do it and that was digital. no. was no problem. so micro to read use military presented in monday in the condition. when of the security threat, the money appeared to be not small at the bigger can can do. so. can you say that france was not able to, can, can, can the wagner group do it? i mean, as i said to you, the question that they're accused of human rights atrocities on the ground. ah, we believe that international organizations reach control and

human rights are issues as they are politically kind of ends. ally, if somebody is going to have more direct cues, for example, you're playing and the government was that far, daughter else? well, asian human. right. it's nice. it's not on us and for no reason to such as race . and that is the best it was go months and you know, some time needed to questions optic to be it's quite cruel. and i think so, but next i've come to that more and more african governments want to invite wagner. 2000 of the great. what do you make of that? what are the dangers for african states in closing up to russia, particularly the ones who are being propped up by, by russian arms and mercenaries. what i think one of the,

one of the things to actually start the conversation with is why they are in the 5th. if, if you, if you go back to no model in particular line, what point a thing i'm going to append to thing. when is your issue of submit? it was, it was, it was really high. we saw of course, i mean this might been been deployed or from 20 to 20 present very much active on back on. so there is, there is the, there is of course, the logic that if these 2 operations haven't walk out a lot or the mean is more about 15000 by con, auntie was donna when we do it about 5000. then the question of con, if you 1000 or some missionaries really do, what about 17000 new troops new couldn't do because if anyone says the current in that is being naive or does this dishonest, however,

africa them. so the, have this, the right on the so venti to decide who just security partners should be on if at this point in time that did, of course being my and is our military officer lead in government. so they know what war is like, you know, what is the needs of the countries believe that it is a wagner that can provide the clarity what i think will happen without the, in the result. but considering this kill of problems that, that what, what we're seeing with africa and in fact, i think it is, it is not, it is not possible that why now be able to, to provide a kind of comprehensive security with africa neglected by her house. now if that is, if that is the likely outcome, then what are the costs on the cost already? they clear, for instance, you will see the pressure already coming from in the western countries. no, my love to keep out of our go out and that is it. got my laptop. i go and then well,

who seem to the u. s. when you're putting an arc last last the last it hits are oh $731.00. when i think if the company, my line, russia activity in africa, which you as rejected guns, women commissioner, community are rejected because the concern is that, that act is going to create a list of the framework for sanctioning countries. so the department of course, already beauty, nobody pull it, no academic solution is already already happening on evil. what is the countries in the region? i knew both of my work in our fossil, even very big concern in the last us africa. so me in the us you got to president express is concerned. when you mentioned the fact that booking fossil, i've actually contacted wagner vienna mine book and they said that to us and look at your stick to

a new laundry. harvey said that they wouldn't, they wouldn't contract. it's a result of wagner. so what we're seeing is every one except the government in wiley and looking at fossil is really concept. but i think the emphasis of the my land government under booking at the government has to be within the region. what do you necessarily thing? what do you think is relevant? but i think we're like countries need to be to the 5th priority outside of the down country because these problems are not under your region, not solutions just in with africa, increasingly becoming something of a political chessboard. what is europe's game plan? it's long term strategy. does it even have one and what about the u. s. which is also a guilty of propping up authoritarian regimes and ignoring human rights abuses that i suppose the one advantage that the u. s. has of russia right now is,

is money which it could, it can throw at africa. so in fact, it's a bit difficult to speak about europe game claim. yes. because i recall that the competence of the european union, when it comes to current and security policy, your security policy, is there running through the members. so all the decisions i taken been in images, which means that it's very much depends on what national governments prioritize as strategies these every, every camp in thank one game game plan. if you want to put a bed on the bed as a one approach that is widely shared european, so when you get all letting k is that basically all europeans say that we need a so called connected approach to security which relies on improving the living condition and to eliminate, for example, of root causes off instability,

which then potentially could also fewer terrorism and overall yeah. and more instead of reaching. so the idea to eliminate that, however, we see that the current situation makes that increasing the difficult for west and countries even though for a something you have just extend that the madness of its compete capability bending mission in money. but i guess we might see some reconsideration there in the next month, potentially as one at and the thing is we also see the trend of france has halted its develop official development 8 and mate 2022. so overall, europeans are really reconsidering the approach to the region, right? well, if i may want to interrupt maybe on the us overall,

and particularly before russia war against ukraine, the us saw african war and particularly the crisis management of africa support like capability. moving on saw that particularly as a european with all the military hats in the context of ukraine and also the increased russian activity in the region. i think that the us will approach the questions also from la geo political anger. and also last, think about questions of influence. so again, exclusive resource extraction deals have been central to several security commitments between russia and several african governments. is the kremlin, using africa to financially sustain its special military operation in ukraine. you know, i'm good or clear, of course, so i can say about as each and the rational will make some

economic deal with my lease. some rational private companies will pay taxes to ration budget and national budget will be used for military ration, but it will take so much time that we i, in fact it doesn't work because it will be the chance. we'll finish it military creation and we're stablish these security ukraine quite quickly during the year and so their money. busy my, the business will come on the year after this war will be over, but you should take an account that the african countries is also very much remember that trash are you doing all serious or what l war?

that's why africans like russians, they respect russians very want to rely on the russians. and african countries was a huge competition with wisant content. but sometimes they got some countries as a colon or you colonial context. it's exec, they are actually made and message united, say britain, france, and you can come to this, they want to establish your colonialism system. ok, of the great, let's, let's pick up on that. russians that i respected in africa may be, i suppose, given that it's sending weapons to prop up authoritarian regimes and military governments. what about the people low? do people in africa see russia as an ally? will russia ultimately become as despised? perhaps, as the former colonial powers, ah,

the younger generation in africa is pretty clear that it sees the future as african democracy. that's how they want to be governed in the future. will they tolerate any russian or, or, or western presence on the continent in the long term? so if you look, because i've been happening in every scenario, you always find african africans. we've been around flag speaking to how does support the income in militia government. they won't finance with russia just like it progress because there is a lot of positive sentiments towards roger russia on it. it, i would say when the russians up pointing, we moved we because for some reason i've run into, into africa. i say by one thing that is very, very low in many, many,

many countries is that our trade is very much negligible. so how, what is so spinning? you know, this friendship, i think a little because we deal with the anti colonial struggle, but also a lot of it has do with the resent men of the way. and that is particularly true. none of this is where i think you have a single left front in this in this case, and that's perfectly true for quantity like my lease and i've got a 40 on on booking of so does 5. but also these african generation, of course, when machines are work, so it's risky, anything that russia is not stepping into the you know, the security space mall on it is also the risk of failure. and if it feels it is going to manage all of the goodwill that it has in many parts of the country on the read trips or the the really risk of life. and the fact of if. busy these

content like molly and booking of fossil do not have a proper, you know, approach to that looking with countries within the region are giving us, i think because many of the problems that are going to face with i would security with i would political pressure from the with will really be determined by how much buying that in our country the enables. how because this new re not going to come want to play the political pressure that the west is going to be exhausting on them by the same time. just reason our countries can be the solution to the security challenges that this the brought them into apply and the 5th, okay. she's in, you touched upon it just a few minutes ago. how do you see the that the broader trajectory for european engagement in africa with things such as a development aid, if that stops the cycle of violence that we're seeing in, in many of these countries, the poverty, the poor, living conditions, investment in infrastructure and all that will stop, but it yes,

there were who the risk that we can see this trajectory, arbitrary renewal. and this is of course, a great concern for your opinions because it's security and stability of countries in africa also is closely associated with european securities. so the idea of some of the terrorist strong hollis be needing in emerging in molly's but big streaming programmatic european. also, overall instability might call us new migration on the one hand, on the continent which could then further of course deteriorate living conditions. so there, but also leach to the need for bro, no response. and this as a time where you are, she's also struggling to redesign the migration. so overall,

the situation is, i think of great concern for europe and will be broached close me. although things are really dynamic and changing quite quickly, it will be difficult to respond to that, but really non transparency. ok to insure europe can afford not to be engaged in africa right now. that is difficult to say. and i think it really depends on the conditions on the ground. so i think the french, but in the end has made it clear that involvement of wagner group is not compatible with, with french troops. and for example, the german defense minister has recently underlined that that the engagement of the german armed forces in the minute mass. so in the end mission, thus, i could not make sense under the current conditions. so i think there are really

considerations going on that i'm afraid we're going to have to end it. we're out of time many thanks to being with us, all of you. so get mark off in moscow. a big way of wiggle in ankara and she's in favor in paris. as always, thank you for watching. don't forget you can see the program again at any time by going to the website at our 0 dot com for further discussion. join us of our facebook page, you'll find that at facebook dot com forward slash ha inside story out of course the conversation continues on twitter handle at a jade side story from b adrian finnegan and the team here and there how thanks will be with us. we'll see you again, my phone ah

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