see across the mediterranean warnings out for that wet and windy weather, affecting the belly, eric islands, some of that snow trickling down to the south. ah, from the al jazeera london, rural car center to people in thoughtful conversation, people use the lowest get agreement. they describe the outsider with no host and no limitation. the difference between a migrant and refugee is truly a choice. when you are refugee, you are forced to flee part one of asthma khan and hasn't had what has happened. a lot in the west is that culture and food is separated. hutto b unscripted on out his era. russia's foreign minister visits african countries to shore up support versus the wagner group expands its operations on the continent. so as moscow's increasing security presence in africa, a threat to us and french influence,

this is inside story. ah hello, welcome to the program. i'm adrian finnegan. sunday lumber off is visiting molly this week in the 1st official trip my a russian foreign minister to the west african nation. molly's jonty, as turned to moscow to help it fight armed groups and fighters from the wagner group, have replaced troops from the former colonial power france. wagner is a private military organization run by an ally of president vladimir putin. of now operates in several african countries. is moscow extending its reach in africa at the expense of western powers? who go to our panel just a moment, but 1st, a report from lower con, russia's foreign minister is on his 2nd trip to the african continent in 2 months.

so de la prov is shoring up the port his relations deteriorate with the west over the worn ukraine on sunday. and just one day before the scheduled touchdown of russian foreign minister, lateral flight, and bomber co, bonnie expelled the head of the un human rights mission. a disorder government to declare the government's decision to declare the head of municipal human rights section, persona non grata as a consequence, he must leave the country within 48 hours. molly's military rulers have been turning to moscow since they came to power in the 2020 coo and following a diplomatic rupture with the former colonial power france loss. here, paris withdrew its troops from the region ending operation barcode, and it's been battling armed groups there since 2013. this last a gap which allows russian fighters from the volcanic group to help combat armed groups. in 2018 al jazeera met russian fighters from wagner. trainee

photos from the central african republic. it's also been operating in libya, molly mozambique and saddam. during a speech in eritrea lover of showed the russia would be a bullock of economic support in africa, hulu. no hybrid was of the waste, including in ukraine, will be able to stop the development of new centers of economic power, financial and political influence. this map results the un though to march shows how to find it african nations were in condemning rushes invasion of ukraine. 28 voted in favor. eights, didn't vote, and 17 abstained. that included south africa, which has historically strong relations with russia and the for the soviet union. in january law for of announce upon from military trails, with russia and china. the will form the anniversary of the war in ukraine. russia struggle against western powers is playing out in africa as it drums up strategic

support. turning it into a diplomatic playground. laura han inside story al jazeera. ah, let's brand our guess for today's discussion from moscow were joined by a survey markov who is director of the institute of political studies from ankara of a great, a gray go. who's a policy analyst with the consulting seat development reimagined that focuses on africa and in paris were joined by jesse and vba is a fellow at the german marshall fund of the united states. warm welcome at to you all so okay, let's start with you. what does russia want in africa? does it want access to middle resources? does it want business for russian companies, military partnerships, to humiliate former colonial powers in africa? all of those? or is it just that it needs all the friends it can get at the moment? i think all those, those goals,

which you mentioned about very little of all are famous most effective in the book private miniature company, bargainer making you said business they make and military consultant to money government, to central africa, the republican government tool book. and i saw a government that some of us it says their business getting mine. and also because of such a corporation that was money, got my partner. and then i was actually business group kind of have a different context to get some money, also because branded relation between russia and the government. russia can develop economic ration with money. and so we've

got some additional price. great. just so great. and some of us and them that france is quite offended by rational behavior. it's not to be pragmatic, but also, but using think from our point to raise friends now is enemy is around what you have. so we've been killed in connections. so just in general or against the pro ration, but it says in your grades and more programs to press this, i was gonna say, hey, did you say that the france is killing russian soldiers in the ukraine? yes, sir, because france is getting

a whoop. and that is an officers who are you? oh boy. oh boy. in stockton or ukrainian. very, pretty 0 again, souls. okay. i don't really want to get bogged down in ukraine. this, this discussion about about africa at the moment. i just wanted you to verify that that remark. yeah, a vaguely let's, let's, let's put this to you then what, what is russia doing in africa right now when it's engagement bring about the piece, the development that many of the countries that it has security partnerships with want here. i think if we go back to the 2019 africa, so meetings and so to you, you see you see the science of what process we are trying to achieve, really quick continent on it. but under buttoned up from 2019, because that new predict the, the warning and ukraine and about foot african if it were present. and you could

see from the totally communication that russia is indeed very keen on forming in strongly with african countries as a political additions and edges security and so forth. but at the moment, one on one of the clear one of the clint needs there are so we really want to maintain, at least, or even to shop, is influence on the content. because post the invasion of ukraine and little need for us to have friends at to avoid it as a leash on africa. countries about how the country, the continent or the split in speaking how further would have, wouldn't be neutral or, or against your solution that we saw in the u. n. g in march in the last last down on on what so i think i was very important for russia. ready because the war goes on, there is like to be more and more of this incident where there is need for friends

and allies of what's in accordance with with his position also. but not on the sunday dinner. and i'm a kid, it's almost by russia, both african countries themselves because new york sounds coming, putting going and never got a debit card that you have to play out of both those africa countries have legitimate interest that the forcing me to rush as well. but got a job security team, but we will see from the pac on of the cooperation on the security. i think it needs to be seen how, where the trunk lid more into must not be carried to because so far more for region security. even though these advice on the claim to be, of course, you know, advice in the government in terms of the issues of security of terrorism on that talk much about crimes just in, in paris. russia foreign minister has wined, and dined his way through african capitals in recent months,

welcomed by most as an old friend, is the west, being out maneuvered by russia in africa where france has already made it quite clear last year that the operations of the group in malli, i'm not compatible with engagement off with the department of french artists, and that is also why france withdrew its hospice from molly. but i think that we are overall seeing a shifting pattern in the region also by, for example, by the fact that the human rights director of the united nations mission for the nation in this ma, has some expelled from mommy. and also that more and more western countries, such as, for example, sweden, other u k. pepin withdrawing their forces from living with ours. and so indeed, western countries are calling out here and we see that this is also due either

because they are expelled or visual santa clara as not. why come? because effective a teeth of civilizations and just not compatible with doing that for me. also see in the region overall, is that security cooperation, or leg counterterrorism? civilization look much and more and more like a couple of competition for geopolitical influence. so you mentioned the wagner group, what is it doing on the ground in africa? the larger group stands accused of committing human rights abuses the kremlin, as denies that it has anything to do with its presence there that it, but it's not officially sanctioned by, by russia. it has no legal status internationally. why does russia tolerate its presence there? or can russia not achieve its aims in africa without it?

i think monday government programs with security because thought ex and optical branch, the old farm, not cars are and the money government repair to you will. french military branch troops up to secure 2 percent of the security was not able to do it. and that was digital knows appraisals, no brands micro and to use military presenting in monday in the condition. when of the security threat, the money appeared to be not small at the bigger can. can you so can you say that france was able to, can, can, can the, the group do it? i mean, as i said to you in the question that they're accused of human rights atrocities on the ground. ah, we believe that international organizations which are controlled in

human rights or issues as they are politically kind of ends ally, if somebody is going to have more direct rec use for example, you're playing in the government was a sub out. well ation human rights. it's means if it's not on us and for no reason to such are the race and that is that next it was a go months and you know, some time submitted to the questions to be it's quite cruel and i think so, but knox, i've come to accept more and more african governments want to i got 2000 of the great, what do you make of that? what are the dangers for african states in encoding up to russia? particularly the ones who are being propped up by, by russian arms and mercenaries. what i think one of the,

one of the things to actually start the conversation with is why they are in the, in the 5th. if, if you, if you go back to no model in particular line 20 thing i'm going to have in that thing when the issue, the issue of stability was it was, it was really high. we saw, of course, when this might been been deployed from printed test in to present very much active push on by con. so there is, there is the, there is of course logic that if these 2 operations haven't walked out, a lot of the, i mean, is my about 15000 back on auntie was donna, when we do with about 5000. then the question of con, if you 1000 or us on missionaries really do, what about 17000 new troops new couldn't do because if anyone says the current in that is being naive or does this dishonored, however,

the african government them. busy so the have this, the right on the sovereignty to decide who the security partner should be. and if at this point in time that these are, of course being minded military officer leading the government. so they know what war is like, you know, what is the needs of the countries believe that it is wagner, that can provide the character what i think will happen without c in the result. but considering this kill of problems that, that what, what we're seeing with africa inside, i think it is, it is not, it is not possible that wagner be able to, to provide a kind of comprehensive, you know, security, that was up. you're going to go through this. i don't know if that is, if that is the likely outcome, then what are the costs on the cost already? they clear, for instance, you will see the pressure already coming from in the western countries. no. my love to keep out of our go out and that is it. got my laptop, i go and then well,

so seen to the u. s. you're also passing an arc last last year it last year, which are oh, $731.00. when i think if the company, my line, russia activity in africa, which us rejected the government commissioner community are rejected because the concern is that that act is going to criticize the framework for some funding countries. so the, the monthly costs already beauty, nobody know academic solution is already already happening on even what is the countries in the region. i knew both of my work in our fossil, even very, very concerned in, in the last us africa saw me in the us going to president express is concerned. when you mentioned the fact that booking fossil, i've actually contacted wagner vienna mine, barker book and they said that to do, you could still do

a new laundry harvey that they wouldn't, they wouldn't contract. it's a result of wagner. so what we're seeing is every one except the government in wiley, in looking at fossil, is really concept. but i think the, the emphasis of the, my land governments are the book and the government has to be within the region. what do you notice to the thing? what do you think is relevant? but i think we're like countries need to be to the 5th priority outside of the country. because these problems are regional undergrad, regional solutions, just in, with africa increasingly becoming something of a political chessboard. what is europe's game plan? it's long term strategy. does it even have one? and what about the u. s, which is also a guilty of propping up authoritarian regimes and ignoring human rights abuses that i suppose the one advantage that the u. s. has of russia right now is,

is money which it can, it can throw at africa. so, and fact it's a bit difficult to speak about europe game claim here, because i recall that the competence of the european union when it comes to current security policy, your so security policy is they're running through the members. so all the decisions i've taken benjamin images, which means that there's very much depends on what national governments prioritize as strategies these every, every come in. thank one game game plan. if you want to put that on the bid as a one approach that is widely shan't european. so you, without letting k is that basically all europeans say that we need a so called connected approach to security, which relies on improving the living condition and to eliminate for example,

of root causes off instability, which then potentially could also fewer terrorism and overall. yeah, and more instead of reaching so the idea is to eliminate that. however, we see that the current situation makes that increasing the difficult for west and countries even though for something you have just extend that the mandate of its compete capability bending mission in models. but i guess we might see some reconsideration there in the next month, potentially as one at. and the thing is we also see that trend of france has halted . it's develop official development 8 and mate 2022. so overall, europeans are really reconsidering the approach to the reach, right? well, if i may want to interrupt maybe on the us overall,

and particularly before russia war against ukraine, the us saw african war. and particularly the crisis management of africa support like capability building and saw that particularly as a european with all the military hats in the context of ukraine and also the increased ration activity in the region. i think that the u. s. will approached especially also from la geo political anger and also last think about questions of influence. so again, exclusive resource extraction deals have been central to several security commitments between russia and several african governments. is the kremlin, using africa to financially sustain its special military operation. and ukraine it all, i gather queer, of course, so i can say about as each for and the fracture will make some

economic deal with my lease some rational private companies will pay taxes to ration budget and the rational budget will be used for military ration. but it will take so much time that we, i unfair, it doesn't book because it will be the chance we'll finish it military nation. and we're, we're stablish at these security in ukraine quite quickly during the year. and so their money is from my, the business will come on this war will be over, but you should take an account is that the african countries is also very much remember that the rash are you doing all serious or well, what l was that,

why africans like russians, they respect russians very want to rely on the russians. and african countries was a huge creation with western concert. but sometimes they got some countries as a going around or new colonial country. it's exactly me message united, say brit than france. and now you can come to this, they want to establish new colonialism system. ok, of the great, let's, let's pick up on that. russians i respected in africa, may be, i suppose, given that it's sending weapons to prop up authoritarian regimes and a military governments. what about the people, though? do people in africa? see russia as an ally? will russia ultimately become an despised, perhaps, as the former colonial powers?

ah, the younger generation in africa is pretty clear that it sees the future as african democracy. that's how they want to be governed in the future. will they tolerate any russian or, or, or western presence on the continent in the long term. so if you look up, because i've been happening in every scenario, you always find african africans. we've been around flag, i'm speaking to how the supports the income in miniature government. they won't finance with russia just like it because because there is a lot of positive sentiments towards roger russia on it. it, i would say when the russians up pointing, we have moved that way because for some reason a russian influence africa is the by one thing that is very,

very low. been many, many, many countries that are treat is very much negligible. so how, what is so spinning, you know, this friendship, i think a lot of because we deal with the anti colonial struggle, but also a lot of it has do with the resentment of the way. and that is particularly true. none of this is where i think you have a single up front in this in this case. and that's probably true for quantity like my lease and i because for the booking of us, so does park, but also these african generation, of course, when partnerships work. so it's risky, anything that is not stepping into the you know, the security space mall on it is also the risk of failure. and if it feels it is going to manage all of the goodwill that it has in many parts of the country on the read trips or the the really risk of life. and the fact of,

if this country like molly and booking of fossil do not have a proper, you know, approach to dialoguing with countries within the region are giving us, i think because many of the problem that are going to face with, with security, where that would political pressure from the with will really to be determined by how much buying that in our country then the both how because this new re not going to come want to play the political pressure that the west is going to be exactly on them by the same time district and our country can be the solution to the secretive yeah. challenges that this the brought them into apply and the 5th. okay. she's in, you touched upon it just a few minutes ago. how do you see that the broader trajectory for european engagement are in africa with things such as a development aid? if that stops, the cycle of violence that we're seeing in, in many of these countries, the poverty, the poor, living conditions, investment in infrastructure and all that will stop. but it yes,

there are. who's the risk that we can see this trajectory, arbitrary reno? and this is a girl of course of great concern for your opinions because it's security and stability of countries in africa also is closely associated with european security. so the idea of quite some her terrorist stronghold being in emerging in malia but big streaming from her medic from europe. also, overall, instability might call us and you migration on the one hand on the continent which could then further of course, deteriorate living conditions. so there, but also leach, so the need for grow and i was calling and this at a time where you are, she is also struggling to redesign the migration. so overall,

the situation is i think of great concern for europe and will be botched close me. although things are really dynamic and changing quite quickly, it will be difficult to respond to that, but really not trans passenger. ok to insure your account for not to be engaged in africa right now. that is difficult to say. and i think it really depends on the conditions on the ground. so i think the transfer to the end has made it clear that involvement of wagner group is not compatible with, with french troops. and for example, the german defense has recently underlined that that the engagement of the german armed forces in the midst mass. so in the end mission, thus, i could not make sense under the current conditions. so i think there are really

considerations going on that i'm afraid we're going to have to end it. we're out of time, but he's actually being with us all of you. so get mark off in moscow. a big way of wiggle in ankara and she's in favor in paris. as always, thank you for watching. don't forget you can see the program again at any time by going to the website at our 0 dot com for further discussion. join us on facebook page. you'll find that at facebook dot com forward slash ha inside story out of course the conversation continues on twitter handle at a jade side story from me, adrian finnegan and the team here and know how thanks for being with us. we'll see you again. my phone awe

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