demand tough questions. what exactly are you asking for you? what on the ground, the rigorous debate we challenge conventional wisdom and demand the truth upfront with me. mark lamar hill on al jazeera ah, [000:00:00;00] ah, al jazeera with hello, i'm darren jordan in dough. with a quick reminder, the top stories here on al jazeera,

north korea has 5 to more projectiles of its east coast. lesson 48 hours after a similar launch. young young has been angered by military drilled between the united states and south korea. north korea's leader kim jong, who insist that kim jo, john says whether her come for uses the pacific ocean as a shooting range. depends on the united states, iran's denying reports. it's intentionally enriched uranium beyond international acceptable levels. the united nations nuclear watchdog says it's now in talks are to reported a detected to an enrichment level of 84 percent. a 90 percent threshold is required for use in a nuclear weapon. turkish rescue efforts have ended in all provinces except cut ahmad marashi on her tie. the areas hardest hit by the quakes 2 weeks ago. more than 46000 people had been confirmed dead in turkey yet, and syria. stephanie becca has more from a donna in southern turkey, either buildings or flattened or partially destroyed. they're stuck to the unsafe

so many places like that. i province in oklahoma marsh, around got the on tap. these are areas, towns and cities where the majority 708090 percent needs to be demolished, what still standing, and then rebuilt a doctors without borders. aid convoy has entered, northwestern, syria, the agencies calling for an urgent scaling up of help to the region. you are so authorities and announce they'll provide an additional $100000000.00 in aid secretary of state, anthony blink, and visited some of the quake affected areas. on sunday, we are working in very close collaboration with our colleagues, both to understand all of the needs and to find ways to do it wrong. this could not be done without the extraordinary working collaboration of so many parts. the u. s. government that starting with the united states military, which is always jumped in a remarkable way. ukrainian forces are fortifying their positions and the eastern

city of diverse, anticipating a potential russian offensive cave believes severe could be next in line. if russia takes the 50 contested town of back moot, some 1500 civilians to remain in the city. moscow says its forces are making gains in east in the ukraine. it says troops have taken control of a village near the city of hark, eve. russian forces had been advancing in the area since ki, reclaim control of the city. in september. french troops are leaving burkina, faso, marking the end of their military presence in the country. in january, frances, given a one month deadline to withdraw from the west african nation as relations deteriorated, nicholas hawk as more from senegal. this was a small but solemn ceremony, marking a big moment in history for burkina faso. the french flag was brought down in a ceremony in a camp outside the capital one to do in the presence of the chief of staff, but also the commander of the french forces. lieutenant colonel lucretia,

the $200.00 to $400.00 men, will be re deployed to de carson and all right here, but also to our because they were in charge with neutralizing leaders of arm route linked to iceland. al qaeda operating in this a health residents of the state of ohio. se toxic fumes, madrid train are still a concern. the train was carrying a hazardous chemicals when it came up, a trunks in a small town at east palestine. 2 weeks ago. authorities set off a control explosion to prevent a bigger disaster. the bite and administration has defended its response, saying it mobilized a robust, multi agency effort. we need help. we do. we need, if we be president the item we need fema housing, or debbie. we should not have been way back into town until all of this was done. you bring families that with their kids in their loved

ones and then tell them to scrub with to or at least 36 people have been killed in flooding and landslides. in brazil, the sa powder regional was hit the hardest by the heavy rains. thousands of tourists who came to brazil for carnival celebrations, found themselves cut off. where the forecasts are showing more thunderstorms in the coming week. so those were the headlines and he's continues here on out to 0 after the bottom line states, you've got to watching. ah, i am steve clements and i have a question after you get another killing of a black american at the hands of the police. what's happening with police reform? let's get to the bottom line. ah, the family of tyree nichols was present at the state of the union address when

president joe biden asked congress once again to quote finished the job of police reform. when 29 year old tyree was stopped by police last month in memphis, tennessee. what was supposed to be a routine traffic stop escalated into a brutal beating? after being teased, he tried to run an arm to the house where his mother was calling out to her. it was heartbreaking. some officers had him restrained while others were still punching him and boasted about it on video. it was so severe that tyree had to be taken to the hospital where he died. 3 days later, the officers on the scene had been fired and charged with murder. but the killing, like the murder of george floyd almost 3 years ago. begs the question, is it just a few bad apples on the police force or a system full of institutional and cultural failures? today we're talking with that john city, foreign police officer and memphis, who now teaches criminology at georgia state university and as a senior fellow at the council on criminal justice that thank you so much for joining us. as i was mentioning to you earlier,

this topic is one that i feel like we need to talk about. we need to address. we should be talking about it all the time. not just when we have a heroic accident or incident that has happened like now, but let me ask you, do you have any confidence that these moments of real horror out there are leading us in any real direction towards genuine police reform? some thank you for having me and that's a wonderful question. i do believe that these signatory events have impacted how we think about reform, but also the need for reform. so for instance, with george floyd, the one thing that i felt was there was a racial rate reckoning in the us. i think for far too long, people believe that black and marginal last communities call the wolf when it comes to the police. because oftentimes, our communities don't experience what we tend to experience in our neighborhoods. and without deals with the police or the feelings of fear and trauma that comes across in these interactions. and so what i have seen is that,

but congress to move local governments of move state government. 1 to move, even in the absence of federal the federal government passing the georgia board act . and so we've seen a multitude of reforms 3 to 400 was the past at the local state level since georgia voice dealt with terry nichols desk. i think what about, what about you textual stops unnecessary stops and arrest while the black people resists. what about the specialized eunice? and so we become more intelligent about how we think about reform. i will say that we had calls for defined the police after george lloyd, and we saw america come through with education educating them, sales and understanding when the crowd rates went up. realize that we do have a role for police. but i think the main thing that has happened is, what is the role of the police? and are we asking too much of our police officers? and are we making enough investments not doesn't policing, but in criminal justice. so i think we're taking a much more broader but also deeper approach. understanding what's going on with

policing and how the system works. you know the unit that these police officers who murdered tyree nichols allegedly who were fired by the memphis police department were part of a union unit called the scorpions scorpions folks stands for street crime operations for restoring peace. what has happened in police departments from your perspective on the restoring and preserving piece part of the equation. thanks for bringing up the name of the unit. scorpion, i think far too often in police and we take for granted. what names mean? what symbols mean? what the uniform means that research shows that these things matter. so 1st i want to say that naming unit score unit does not invoke the guardian style of mindset that we talked about. the 21st policing it carries on there will be a mentality, has gotten policing and trouble for far too long. and let me set the record straight. a lot of these units are performing correctly. a lot of these units have

seen great impacts. the lot of these units have passed the crime that they're targeting without making the but taking the broken windows approach, where the stop or frisk approach or the protection will approach. many of these units are using intelligence that data driven meditation is also have better supervision. i think a lot of things that we saw, we missed this and it's hard nipples case was that we saw officers who weren't competent officers who were obviously not actively trained. we saw a subculture within the unit, which could be part of a broader cell culture or specific to that. but we also saw a lack of oversight and accountability. and we also saw there was most disturbing about this particular unit. and target nicholas case is that the fact that they thought that this was real policing. and this goes to how we evaluate and promote offices to these units. you know, we have to look at police and as a industry, i mean the things that we do to reform the industries can be used in policing. and i think that, yes, we need to look at the special as soon as with,

just like when we started talking about the find the police and the emotional out the met. we did take a look back and really see what's the purpose of these units. what's the purpose of and how do we suppress 5? are we trying to suppress prize? but a lot of our racket they'll have to deal with this. what we're just trying to get the meeting gains to get political points or 4 officers try to move up their pathway up the ranks. one of the things that struck me about the tyree nichols case is that the police in this case happened to be black or there are their mistakes that were making and racialize in some of our discussions about the problems and policing today. absolutely. busy in there, in the back, it's a magic bullet, county policing, or we get more women get more black officers, they get more college as a kid officers. and you have to really make sure you understand what you're doing. you know, oftentimes was an interaction between police and citizens, is less about the race of the officer. more about the race of the citizens as being impacted. and what i mean is nobody, black, white, green, purple, blue,

whatever. it is, a meal from anti black messaging. busy these, these fears of a black me and, and particularly these patriarchal values that we have in the us that plus back women much differently doing those black men as harmful effects and many other marginalized groups. and so that's 1st let's talk about the black resistance in black fear. north a police officer wrote a uniform way home up it will allow for that will before and my heart was racing fairs. my mother had to talk with me and i was raised on to respect police. not because necessarily have the best relationship and respect and, but my mother didn't want me to end up on the news. and so if you try and she is in this way, black years and the ways of these communities, i think what it does in a farms down, but it also system of additional anticipation. and so we have to try to found the balance and talk about these things responsibly. fight, flight,

or freeze are 3 not responses when it comes to fear of crime. police see the additional resistance and black communities and dealing with black citizens is not because they are more criminal, is not because they despise police. research shows that in many black communities, they want more policing. they just want to be treated fairly and respect imagery. treated humanely, but that fear can cause you to test up, their fear can cause these things to be somewhat exaggerated, but it comes from a real place is historical. in many times we see these videos, it also causes and raises that fear level. and so often 1000, many of the cases you've seen resistance. and the one thing that we're the irks me people always acts. well, if black people don't want to be killed or hurt by the police, they should comply. well, it's not just as simple as truth and that, but there's no trust right there. the trust has been eroded. and if you saw what mr . nipples, he was try to deescalate the thought that the conflict. when he got up and read,

i surmised that he was running for his life. in many other ties, we've seen these instances happen. where are these people are running for their last? because we're afraid people think black resistance of results because of defiance often is because a desperation and fear from the trauma is if i carelessly or personally with these relationships. and so it also goals a show that we house of systemic issues that often elpac the transaction between police and citizens. i think the big thing we're talking about is you, do, you need to tear down these departments down to the, the floor and build them back? or is there an incremental, you know, we can tweak our way through these problems. i mean, do we need to overhaul the system or are there reforms that can come in and kind of become anti gens in the system and begin, begin changing it. so love to get your insights on that, given your experience and both sides of the equation. oh, that's a great question. nelson's house, and i'm talking i use the term we and oftentimes we refer to the black community

and we refers to law enforcement. and so often say that my wife calls me a walk in paradox because i understand the amenities offices are very good people, amenities officers want to do right. and they want to serve public the public in a safe in just manner. now oftentimes you think this is back, this behavior happens in a vacuum and it does, it is policy is training is leadership and not just departmental leadership is also the city level leadership. and we have to hold our seating level leaders accountable as well as police chief, because we often make police officers escape go. what i'll tell you right now. most police officers the, their behavior alliance with policy and culture. and you can have all the policies that you want, but if you don't enforce them, this is a message for culture. i will also say many times, you know, people have been disappointed in the. busy federal government, i don't think it is earth shattering or the end today because at the end of the day, reform starts with the local level with police and the community that they're serving a local government. and so, yes,

many places have come out with great things, like the council criminal justice, our task force, camera recommendations like increased data collection duty to intervene, trauma form the approaches, national training standards, the certification groceries. all of these things are vitally important because we have to think about police reform over the long term. we and our generation may not see the full benefit of it. it may be our grandkids. they're actually able to do it, but we have to be in it for the long haul. are getting some details. we've seen places license and that he who made changes. yes, because of federal input, but they made changes. they took in around with it. and as long as they had the political we'll, we saw improvements. but once they moved away from that reform about 7 to 10 years later, things started going back on the downside and where they were before they made these reforms. so it shows that reform has to be sustained and it can't be a flash in the pan. so a couple of things is this. how was that officers? everybody wants to hire cause to get it officers,

but you have to pay though. so we can't find the police if we want to hire the best quality officers. research shows that the higher opinion jobs recruit in attractive retain more, a superior workforce, the same thing, goals for policing. also training. you know, the basic training in service training. we have to take a service, they measured, align with 21st century policing. our leaders, are they train? are they competent? how are they presented? what was their background checks? what was the promotion pathway? what? what does their record looks like? so do they hold their officers accountable? so as these things, and so i will say that it's a lot, but yeah, that will be a can do right now. well, let me, let me jump in here. i want you to keep going on because i want to ask you a question. kenneth corey, who's a former police chief of new york city, has said that what we ask of our cops is that they think like lawyers speak like psychologists in perform like athletes. what we pay them is common labors, which is exactly the point you're making. and the question is,

do you have any insights into the prescription that might address this problem of the seeming mismatch of skills and training with what we x and the pay that we're paying officers. if we want better officers, we have to make investments and police force, you know, let me just say it is about 80 to 90 percent of all police department expenditures go towards salaries and benefits. they're not rolling over in the dough. and so this is oftentimes we saw the militarization of police and why, why to these departments clamoring towards these monies and his appointments because they are thirsty for more resources and better resources. you also have a manpower issue. so we, yes, we need to try and better yesterday to do these things. but remember, i told you police departments, police officer policy compliant and the behavior that happened back. and we see that many of these, these, these, these cases have spurred out of on this is every contact with police officers are

not treat assistance fairly, not explaining to them what was going on, not invoking procedural justice. so a lot of it goes with that and why the police officers response so aggressively. why the police officers shaped down arrest of citations, oftentimes those without a public safety value, the police rewards structured. so speaking of pay, we have to understand the help of these are promoted and invest. weighs heavily on those quote unquote invisible folders that nobody wants to talk about. and so those are only about 10 to 15 percent of the job. if so, right there are higher and better quality officers, better training, that's going to take time because you're just not getting rid of office without due process. but in the meantime, you can change how we interact with citizens. that we spend 85 percent of our job community building and other actions is not not engaging lawbreakers and just law abiding citizens. why not reward office for that? we wonder why has the community policing taken off? it's been around for ever sent a new concept,

but we have not aligned our war structures, incentives, our promotion structures with how the public needs to be served to keep up with 21st century policing. and so oftentimes with how we were war police officers, we put offices and citizens and adversarial confrontations on necessarily remember their fear, their black fear a police. you throw that in into these things, and police officers who are not trying for 21st century policing. they're still trying, like you're being trying it in the old old guard regime. you can see how conflict can come together. i mean, research shows that black people over, but please list any less, oftentimes shows that they want the same amount or more policing. remember, is how they're approaching, how they're dealt with in the last thing, i'll say, you know, you ask the question or this will be overhaul the complete system. let me get some stats. often sampling fault focus on the use of force and police killings. someone else there's a legally justify, and i'm not saying that they're not lawful but awful,

but we need to prevent those things from, from escalating preventing that trigger. but remember this 1200 people, what you about police officers or after the past couple years, on average, the police have 50 or 60000000 contacts with citizens. and so that means they're less than point 002 percent of all cases result in built in the city of myths. you saw $800.00 calls a service each year and $2122.00. they reported about 1200 uses force reports. now say they don't report everything, even if it was double that assailed as a 2500 use of force. incidence that happened or divided by $800000.00 best still less than one percent. and so i think a major issue is useful for us will need to understand is a reasonable and then how do we prevent that? remove the pretext out of policing and reward officers for the job they want. why you think we don't have many women supervisors? why isn't it attracted to women other marginalized and non white groups? because research shows that the type of police and,

and i'm talking about is felicia that they're actually retracted to. right. not this old bar. and so out, i'll just sit up on that. yes. no, no i, i, it's important and look, i really liked at the beginning of our conversation that you mentioned that there are departments out there that are data driven that are paying attention to feedback, you know, responding to figuring how they're improving. i'm also a data guy, and so one of the data points that has come out of the, you know, memphis police training manuals is that they spend about 208 hours, believe it or not, on firearms training. and about 10 hours on conflict resolution de escalation. does that have to shift from your perspective as part of it? right? because i remember gotten it the same category as i could buy. i could run, i could drive by the below. i had race, a viable tactics, i could shoe, but i didn't receive much try and the escalation or did the with special populations. how do i deal with juveniles? how do i deal?

so models have with a mental health. so how do i deal with these things? they leave the academy making, you're going to fight, afford airbus every, every day, instead of your community member. so i think, you know, that war, we are mentality that us versus deal is pervasive in the academy. and so this is why even say that it's deeper than who you higher if you some people say that you are a college kid at officers. they bring certain skill sets in, but dependent on their training and not just basic training their field training officer there in service training which is more repetitive, the reward structure to really dictate on how they police and they can become it by all of those things. and what they came to the forest for, right, they really last of the jobs to pay their bills, particular to kids and all these things that the job requires all the things. and so there is a mismatch in what we're saying. we want to do right in how we're trying to. busy how we're rewarding. i watched president biden's state of the union address, i guess about 20000000 other americans did. and he acknowledged tyree nichols,

parents up in the, in the viewing gallery and said to congress, finished the job and, and past the george floyd justice and policing act. here's the thing that i'm struggling with, let's imagine. and i have to say, i don't think it'll, it'll pass. i don't either from what i see in congress that a, i don't think that policing act is going to pass those. but my cards on the table. but if it did pass, would it solve this underlying problem? are we again talking about the wrong thing, distracted by the wrong thing? give us your final thoughts here. may absolutely oh everybody was up in arms. and i was like, well, for me, police departments, non profits, local governments are working together for a wholistic approach. places i fear you'll, north carolina faces. i counted in newark, new jersey, places like dallas in denver with the stars program. mit san francisco who provides immunity to sex industry workers and those who are undocumented increments, so they can report their victimization. and that worry about being charged.

similarly, right, many places have taken this trauma informed approach. and so for me, the federal government has said, guidelines and all those things like the executive order was great, but it was always a federal officers. that's a minor amount of contact that up there. people have with better officers. and so for me, i see the federal government providing minimum thresholds, i think qualify in the qualified community or, or, or in making changes to it is great, but it's not the end of the world that's only financially police office not rolling over an adult. now we want to hold people accountable like their shelven kill, pardon these others, want to hold him accountable? personally, that has to do with qualified immunity. and so the federal government will position you want more data, help agencies get that the, the, the infrastructure, the computing power, the mayor power personnel, the special as an understanding, analyzing data, most healthy small as you just pull some, pull the guy off the b to say hey, you know, computers, can you input these data? of course they're going to be issued to sort of federal government can be

a fine answer over form. why certainly these things up in minute reforms are already taken place by for in the dallas stars program. partners, police officers with social workers and other service providers, re benefits, but they had to fight for funding, even though they show these benefits and had a proven track record. and so that's why you, the federal government stepping in, providing the right equipment for these agencies, bolstering the pay, so we can make sure we get the best and brightest offices that we see go. so i see the federal government playing that role. so those things provide a baseline like ban and show coals, right? no, not was these types of things. they put about a baseline for the reform that we need, but, and she'll be creat pathways for officers who are service minded. who often when the oriented to be leaders and you keep focused on reward structures that have no public safety value. and with those coming out and met metrics,

you're going to have people who value warrior south police and continue to be the gatekeepers. as supervisors are being promoted and those who are more attractive, innovative, community build and type of policing, they're going to go for of their careers and i deal with this. and so i think it's so important that we not get blinded by big deals and all these things at the federal level. it's a state level, it's a local matter and the federal government can partner with this. and this is the last thing i'll say, you know, oftentimes we put the federal government as these innovators from our research, with the mighty 99. if we're crime bill and other things, the federal government, rewards and science things into play. many times has already been done at the state and local level. and so this is not the one time they should, they should get away from that because the answers are there. and so i think, you know, that's like a caught up in that. that's not the biggest deal in the world, but there are other things the federal government can do, can support efforts that are going on already in the last thing is that may support

days more than a police reform. we can arrest our way. are these issues, we also need to make sure that we build about communities, right? make sure that we address someone systemic issues that i talk about, the support resistance between police officers, citizens, and black citizens, particularly. so i think those are some places where we can really gain traction in the interim while we make these other infrastructural changes. so for me, that's the role of the federal government at this point regardless of the georgia board act, that's a great, it's symbolic, but substantively i'm not sure how much is going to change, allows the people on the ground between police and communities being over, police powerful discussion senior fellow at the council on criminal justice informer policeman fad. johnson, thanks so much for being with us today. thank you to have me. no, my pleasure. so what's the bottom line? it's not about defending the police. and of course, there are fearless cops out there who say people every day, but to deal with abuse. it's definitely time to stop talking and start doing in the

words of the former republican governor of new jersey, chris christy. it may surprise you, but 10 years ago he totally dismantled the police force of one city camden, new jersey and rebuilt it. and now it's a model of how a modern police force should work. what happened to tyree nichols is not an anomaly, and the problem is not going away by itself. the job is left to the thousands of local communities across america to figure out their own ways to protect themselves against criminals, without becoming criminals themselves. and that's the bottom line, ah, from the al jazeera london broadcast center to people in thoughtful conversation, the story of the world is that the global site developed the global knowledge and continues to do that with no host and no limitations. the corporation, if it were human, would act like a psychopath. part one of as you bother, and i said, raymond,

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