expect when it emerges into the open waters. it's be about $85.00 can be gra winds just optic, the damaging, but it still got that potential to wrench, right on the western side of madagascar. and then it crosses towards mozambique ah, in syria citizens are collecting evidence, a show of crimes committed against civilians. we've moved out of syria now about 600000 pages of material. so that one day they can bring the outside regime to justice. it puts a human face on the charges. it's a dead human face, but it's a human face. syria. witnesses for the prosecution. on al jazeera gunfire between afghan and pakistani, hold of forces,

a major crossing for tried and travel between the countries has been closed. so what's causing the latest flare up and how will it affect people on both sides of the border? this is inside stored. ah . hello, welcome to the program, i'm tom mccrae. the main crossing between afghanistan and pakistan has been closed for days, and board of forces on each side have exchanged fire. ah, the incident is the latest in a series of flare up between the 2 countries. have kennasoft 5th shot, the border on sunday, after pakistani security officials reportedly prevented f can seeking medical help from entering wel,

that's after pakistan tight and security. it's border crossings of thousands of vehicles carrying travelers and goods and l stranded on both sides of the border and traders and businesses facing mounting losses. in the last few months. the countries have closed the crossing many times and violence has often broken house, pakistan and afghanistan sheer a border, nearly 2600 kilometers long with 18 crossing points. the one in the border town of talk. com is the busiest, its based nearly 180 kilometers from each country's capital come all high to reports from the pakistani capital. islam of ours being a landlord country of one is on, is heavily dependent on trade across the border from budget on that are 2 major crossings. one that can a gentleman rick gone to hardy. they shaw, already eastern city of nigger. this is also one of the big route and to have one

on board country the enjoy consider, but trade and vote. countries are facing economic hardship. the on site at the q bargain on of north adhering to the agreement. unconfirmed reports saying that another one patient was turned back from the board. many of want to come to budgets on medical attention. the other ones are not happy with the way the pockets have behaved pockets on the side of god. once that border to be opened. there's no magic efforts underway, but on monday there was also an exchange of automatic fire which led to among some of the people living close to the boarded area to move from their homes temporarily . and also, according to custom of fisher $300.00 drug, we're now stranded on the buckets on the side. many of them getting better to relate them so that drunk can do use lock in for traded on both sides. and people

of course, will be hoping that issue the job in order to alleviate the hardship of the people and also to be able to prove vendor officially for budget on the trade. it was sending that commodity across the board up. it's commodity reporting fall insights story from it. from our bod. i will go to our guests and just a moment that 1st let's take a closer look at the importance of the talk come crossing. it is a vital link for trade between the 2 nations and thousands of vehicles passed through it every week. it's particularly important for afghanistan that uses it to export coal and receive food and other essentials from pakistan. thousands of people use it every day for work and to get medical help and treatment of the decades. toy com has also been the main point of entry into pakistan for refugees. relations between the countries have been on edge since the taliban took over afghanistan in august 2021. ah.

well for more on this i am now joined by our guests. father darling's professor of political science at campbell university in london is ozawa num outs, director of development research group a consultancy focusing on women and youth development and central and south asian countries. and n is, i'm a bud is a, as was it a career diplomat and pakistan's, former ambassador to afghanistan, a warm welcome to you will. thank you very much for being on inside story. he asked, i want to stop by a trying to figure out exactly what you think happened. i mean, have you been able to pinpoint exactly why the border crossing was closed? this bottle, and the one mom has it also mentioned germany. this out of the dream barton costume barnes door dead out of the like gas alarm harm. or there are some drugs action takes place, but it is the other,

the major lens between the 2. now what happened actually this, there was a vision rosara be brought to park stanford and the, i'm going to get him in between the 2 sides or wide. some time was that each patient, one attendant would be allowed to the doctor visit this i heard from people that have lived to the official document. so on this day, the a patient had one attendant with him which was turned down. according to the media report by the spanish security there you better get the visa and then come. so on this, the tension grew to this point there. dev ronnie. a gentleman on the spot was the senior one in charge of the check was from the con upon side, immediately closed at the bottom. it still is closed and done. so it flared up

and the firing took place between the 2. now this issue of the patient is not that important, but it flared up because the trust deficit between the 2 side is an increased gradual increase sales. the taliban have taken over, in fact, between us loud and cover. the trust deficit has been there at time it widens, then it comes down. it's roots are be down in the early days of the creation of pakistan. but let me leave that there. the tension increases with things like this because the bottom management has been a problem between the 2 sides. then comes in the line you should between the 2. a one side door unofficially officially, even though one can gun isn't it got denied that is recognizing the line,

but publicly that hesitant to admit and pakistan considers it as an international bother with obviously the she goes a lot deeper than just as you know, issues over over visas and fuzzy from an if can a sun point of view, i mean it a telephone. a pointed commissioner at the crossing said that pakistan has not been abiding by its commitments. what other commitments and how does this issue being to saved in afghanistan? yes, yes, thank you. actually send an exception of pakistan. pakistan never support. couple based government. they never supported a government which is looking after i've done as a united. and so what in country the extent has all unto men time pack do if we see even better,

no follow by could not satisfy pakistan. a wish to have a neighbor on the side which could be assisted in many ways. sick nomic, political and social taliban wants to return to power to deal with believing that pakistan will stay as a close friend as a close ally and as a close support. but most of the taliban are back in power. they have been demonized. i've been scrutinized by pakistani government and military for the 1st time in the history of gunners done most, especially in the recent history pakistan here. the power, the body of kiner sunday court inside afghanistan was, it was considered a severe and a estate act by tyler, by name carbon, and it created a lot of mistress between both the governments. secondly,

pakistan it till for domestic. and he is facing too many attentions, political, economic, and social, the pakistani, democratic leadership and also military leadership has not been able to stabilize the on quote on country. so they have been looking for some blaming good in the region and been having the struggles and problems not only with the sun, but on and also india. there are problems. i've been at the very last thing and said the tons of agreements between going to start and sunday. so very prominent, tucked them in by the name of uptime, which is not been respected by pakistan. it has never been considered as an officer document by pakistan and passed many years. and then once the taliban took power, they also res. they show up to, to be implemented due to up to pakistan will have time to try to shut off getting

away understand when the route to go to take its export and import to india, which is not suspected. and it has been creating a lot of problem. what i've kind of sick nami, please, social and political. okay. i would like to bring you in here. obviously this is a big humanitarian issue. who's paying the, the price here on both sides of the border, who the real people that are being affected in the daily lives. thank you very much for this question. just before i goes to the humanitarian aspect of this, i have to remind our audience that this border is laying on the direct line which is still contested. most of the afghans in particular, those who live on both side of this bother are not formally to conniving the durham

line. and so the conversation is reflected in some of these reactions that we see are somehow suppose of the out of the government control. and it's obvious that even though i've got a son today have the most pockets bonnie friendly regime in place still their attention, they are situations like this. so let's not forget that it within. ringback the context of the, the closure of the border is also a political act, and it's like a pressure points by the, by the parties involved in our depressurize each other. and now who is paying the price from a humanitarian for prospective. it's absolutely clear that if the africans who are paying the huge price here because the guns are in a very concerning situation, at the moment, there is a humanitarian crisis in the country with absolute majority of the people in need of food, immediate services, and in particular medical services which is going are getting worse actually due to

the limitations that i've got the phone is facing today. so a lot of those patients who are an urgent need, elderly, particularly, who are an urgent need of carrying and treatments and pockets balmy cities, off the shower or some of us are now the, the prime affected people. in addition to that door humbug are similar to chairman butter, as was mentioned by your other guests. are places where the livelihoods of absolute majority of those who are risen, resided locally or regionally. and those areas is depending. so people in the low level are losing their jobs. the traders from both side, the pockets only side as one of the african side. also losing a lot when we have more than like you reporter say more than 300 or 500 trucks or kind of stuck in there. and we have seen so many times this happened. it's not the 1st time unfortunately. and the following is because i think there is this tension

that is out of the control of the face, who cannot really maintain that level of stability there to, to, to have it so conclusively, it's the people who are paying the price like any other pension, like any other conflict and particularly those who's health conditions or livelihood directly depending on this border being opened as obviously this isn't just an issue in afghanistan. i mean, it's an important trade route for pakistan as well. i mean, how much of an appetite is there to keep this bought a close door? is there any pressure coming on, authorities from the people that live in the area that need to do trade in the area from the pakistani side to open the border up as soon as possible olivia permit me . i'll make a comment on my friends and said about the a reaction of focused on his card when we said no government in kabul because nice in the true sense by pakistan. in fact, let's,

let's not clear things from ourselves. i'll give you a started called spectrum, did after creation of pakistan. 1947 in august 47, marcus on applied for a membership of the union. and, and 30th of september, 1947. all the members of the urine war to become a member of understand rich goss negative or to didn't draw from pakistan. there is the objection, but their time junction remained for 20 days on the but on 2247, they took it back. but the fust stone was caused by the avalon naturalized to pakistan is the rest is a history. if we're going through less less, i blame game. what i said, i challenge my friend from of amazon to check with you. and if i haven't said

a word more than what the actual history is, then you can blame me for it. but the 1st beginning was met by the and they still have is that a mission on the line, which we consider as an established fact because that was done by the british government in 1893 when pakistan was not there, it was a part of the indian subcontinent. the british and dia van ruler of the amount fund started doing like this and you sent them in between them and pakistan. got it as a success. i stayed my friendship check with the urine and according to the international law, the success of state in is what treaty has already been made. so it was not grand by somebody done. got it, but they are wrong. it negative or refuse to a son to become a member so less but there are some down to the bad. oh.

are the activity and the i'm the father will be definitely affects both side down rounds more because their data dependent for a mainly i'm in goods from pakistan door they have access to the other nebling countries also having trade with them. but mostly focus is on pakistan. or dread for education, for the treatment of their passions. so this affects them mostly, but certainly are people near the i have learned globe and sort of links with it because the amended depend on this transit trade of our bill daily. and because in the tribal area, there is hardly anything for people to live on. so this is the only source i would say of income of those people. so they are a concern. they will, they did the,

the pottery man's or i kept. obviously, this is a mess of social impact, fuzz, millions of africans live in pakistan and mini commute on a daily basis between the 2 countries. i mean this, this ties as well as much division as there isn't as much history as there is like we had outlined there between the 2 countries. there's actually a lot in common and there is a brotherhood between these 2 nations as well, isn't there? so what does that do to the people that rely on that daily commute between afghanistan and pakistan? if we look at the starting call perspective, we can come up with a lot of detail the evidence and perspectives. but my new pakistan on is used to deal with land issue at the pressure my point, i've got to go, but

a mental problem that they know that i'm going to send a landlord and they use this deal on line or this border as an issue to tank treat shelters, all those anti tech to sit on this line on both side and provide them support to somehow do stabilize instead of understanding. that is why the government and carbon never never to consider pakistan as a friend. when tyler bonus was resisting the us a commission and i've got a son and plus 20. and they were sion protected and supported by pakistan, government and pucks on people. but once they turn to pilot, they have been having and the mind and heart all those miseries. and disabilities that they went through and pass 20 years of business tennis in pakistan as their

leader to sort of the some of the leaders were detained. many of the leaders were sold out to us. and so that driven just bad. secondly, the mistress. previously, you were a guest, and mistress and the now tough difference or to install is between pakistan and afghanistan and much of the blame comes to pakistan in the very last thing is that if you consider this broader a ton of the trout, why pakistan is not biting gets sent to the w t o. going to spend his member also the w 2 in pakistan and then to mission a laws and regulations. is that why they are not allowing god because transports to the body to the india and also why not allowing good. i've got good to be transported on. it's. ready momentum and seasonal to night, karachi last thing is that blame game as well. it comes from practice and

if talk to sunday, the data line as part of so what i've done to the stadium, to the development of the, to the how similar to this area and what have been achieved by them that you know, that still taliban, i've been blaming regarding the medicine attacks resistance and the ton of money that is going on as soon as the taliban took power to pakistani, sorry that many of the attackers minova instability factors, sort of still coming from that site was meant to be eligible for any tyler bus shelters and for the blame game is always there, but we should not forget that the britain said $9018.00. 93 have never signed an agreement with us. it was a buffer zone and the gun is done that time was playing

a buffer state. and the general as soon as a buffer between the imperialist anglo and i've got government to that end date. i just want to move away from the history for the moment and, and you touched on this a little bit early and i want you to expand on it. you know, many africans traveled to pockets on for medical treatment. can you explain just how big an issue that is and what happens, what's happening to them now and alive is being put at risk with this border closure precisely as you are well aware and i'm for the 2 guests and the program as well. unfortunately, due to the long years of conflict and also due to the currents, tyler, bon authorities benz on, on education, there is a massive shortage of medical services, particularly medical at the more advanced level of medical. they have noses and

treatments for the people in afghanistan. so afghans are left with no other options, but to rely on their immediate neighbors. in the past, india was a very sort of like, significant to destination, but because of the visa and restrictions on travels, no longer people can go to india. so everyone is back to like using this option of saving a life and taking the person who has l. if we all look around our relatives or friends or networks of people every want, on average, every family have been to pockets on once or twice, at least just for the medical treatment. so it's quite significant. what is really bothering him, particularly as mister hall was also saying in his comments how this immediate issue was triggered because something was agreed between afghanistan and pakistan in the recent months, which was too far because there is no v that now issue than an easy way there are like black markets visas with $11200.00 or so the dollars that you have to pay you

can get a pocket funny visa. but for the medical reasons, because of the pressure from the people. the pakistani government in the taliban have made an agreement that ok, there should be another procedure to allow the patients with one attendance to to cross the border for the medical treatment. i know my own relatives living in eastern afghanistan who use this like 2 weeks ago. husband and wife, very l would there, one, some got to the border and prostate and one for treatment and back to afghanistan. se, so if something like this exists, the neighborhood that the brother was we were talking about at amier. why is it see me? the beach stopped, and that's obviously create tension. and we are talking about the very unstable situation. people are in deep economic crisis. and of course these things trigger something that is originated in history. we come up pack history or folded in a folder somewhere. this is a history that affects people live. i said,

i never said that about focused on focused on that exist and the time to do remind was created. i think historical discussions were enough for make before me. so i will not repeat it. but it's just a realization because of that contestation that exists. people do not recognize this. and therefore when there are change in the policies for whatever reason, whether it is due politics or pressure point mentioned before, or any other reasons could be random reasons. it triggers the immediate reaction of the people in house results into the tensions that we are seeing today. okay, i as i want to finish with you, just very briefly, as a former ambassador, how does this get resolved quickly and peacefully and to get the ball to reopen for everyone that desperately needs to use it as a trade and suppliers? well, give me just a moment to comment on why this trickles up

so very often with the tunnel on, particularly because the tyler but before the taliban coming to power, the wizard restrictions weren't there, but they were not so stringent during good god. why are the venues b as they are now? now the taliban is taken bit very seriously. this look, we are, you are friends for us. it should have been a little more lenient. then i'm making it difficult. that is the real bone of contention. where it is, it's a links go very deep in the history. i can, if been any time, how do we, how do we move on from that? i was just going to mention that i think the foster for most or the most important element is they're both the garments in law, bob and goblin should accept and regret the boss mistakes. i'm not going into the

details, go to sleep, bother committed, goblin them there. sure. part of given final get and regret, and then move on until and unless it is addressed, these things will keep cropping up. and australian got a nation's whatever effort may make, something will happen and will again, a bit development. they're out of good benches in our history. but again, this thing comes up and the development between the 2 pushes to the bank and the tension on the deficit increases. so far back to our address, we have to go into the history and the to government have to come up with this idea . if you do use in the past in the bow, my 2 independent sovereign states a hand in hand and resolve the issues of our people. let's hope of every one site that is affected, that those 2 governments can, can come to

a resolution as quickly as possible. thank you so much. that is a 1000 and cobble was ella namath and london. and i, as was here in is i'm about thank you very much for being guests on inside story and thank you to for watching, you can see the program again any time by visiting our website, al jazeera dot com. and for further discussion, go to our facebook page. that's facebook dot com forward slash ha, inside story. you can also join the conversation on twitter. handle is at ha, inside story for me. tell mccrae and the whole team here. bye for now. ah.

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