ah, and by for a fraud takes on the big issues. this isn't a one off. he's talking about a systemic issue here. black gloves don't really matter in the police. world unflinching questions is war with lawanda, imminent rigorous debate. people who are dying because of lack of medical treatment, challenging conventional wisdom. the fact that people are starting to get angry about this is in itself a sign of progress. join me, mark him on hill for upright. what al jazeera, it's been 20 years since the conflict and often again, but hardly any one talks about it these days. the violence has killed hundreds of thousands of people and displaced millions more. so go peace if a come to wisdom, so down this is inside stored. ah,

hello, welcome to the program, i'm ta mccrae, this week marks a grim milestone for the people of western sudan. the conflict and our 4 began 20 years ago. it's killed hundreds of thousands of people and displaced more than 2000000. a peace agreement was signed in 2020, but many a still in desperate need of humanitarian aid victims are also demanding justice. we have a lot to discuss without guess, surely, but 1st this update from al jazeera is hip morgan who spoke to some of the most affected at zemzem camp, the northern da for when were started, incidentally, western rican off, therefore alley mahmud says, he didn't expect it to reach his village in the wheeler in its laura, but eventually it did. and he and his family were forced to find refuge in this camp. gina. yeah. and then when we flood our homes in 2003,

it was sheltering in the open or under trees. we thought it wouldn't last and continued farming that year, but couldn't harvest anything on cossack luncheon? you know, people were killed, homes were burned, families were separated as like fled, well, i was separated from my sons and only found them when the camera was set up. the dar forward killed more than 300000 people. and over 2000000 were forced from their homes according to the un, 20 years on many areas in the region remain devastated from the war. villages and towns were emptied, as people fled seeking safety. several camps have been set up across the region to shelter those, escaping the fighting. many camps for the displaced and therefore have turned into towns, seemingly replacing those destroyed during years of war. but they all like basic services. there is no running water here, no electricity. and many people rely on humanitarian aid. but it has been dwindling

for those who live here. and then i think what uses with had caused to receive aid since we came into the camp. but some cars had been cancelled. i know some people get them every 6 months and some regular lenders, large families that get a don't even get enough to last in the month. the number of 8 organizations in the camp has also gone down 8 organizations. see, a lack of funding is hampering their efforts. we don't have enough assistance to go around. we have limited resources and we are in a very difficult position where we have to choose from who gets assistance and who doesn't. so what we try to do is to increase informing our donors our donors of the polite and the condition id says his children have no no other home than the camps. and after 2 decades of living as a displaced person, his worried his grandchildren will also grow up with limited assistance and away from their home village. he will morgan, alta 0, them some camp,

northstar for ok. let's take a closer look at the conflict which began in 2003 off to ethnic african rebels rose up against then president. i'm alba, she has era dominated government. bashir responded by arming local arab malicious, known as the judge of weight, who targeted known arab tribes accused of supporting the rebels. less we mentioned hundreds of thousands of people have been killed and millions more displaced. the international criminal court has charged to share with genocide and crimes against humanity. he was forced to resign and 2019 after widespread protests. ah, okay, we'll, it's bring in our guests now in hot tomb l to gunny c. c. chairman of the national liberation and justice party, and a former governor of da for state who was involved in negotiations in doha as the former chairman of the daf, or regional authority in doha doha abdullah hob affinity,

a professor at our institute for graduate studies. who writes extensively on sudan, and also in hot tomb ha fees mohammed director of justice for africa, sudan, a womb welcome to all 3 of you. thank you very much for being on inside story today . if i could please begin with you l to connie, do you feel like the world has forgotten da, 4 and the conflict that's been going on for the last 20 years? well if they do feel like so because the conflict is going on. however, i would like to find out the conflict. it's an conflict between the river movements and the governors not. and then there are private companies among various tribes in the world and then are mandatory as far as the company between the groups and the government concerned. i think this over for the signing of the agreement, most of the moment they have signed the lease agreement and they are now her phone

cost. one will be still there. i do still not sign that, but we see that as far as the cds. however, the private conflicts continued over the last few few years in addition to that. and one of the, the issues that are causing problems for nowadays bonded as you know very so why does protest ration of light went down to the people. and this has to be one of the, the most important factors that are being quoting in, in on. well, i believe that the international community, i mean, unit for the international committee. the almost, i mean amount between $13000000000.00 in that, in that mission. but unfortunately, i don't think that unit has that much in what had that money,

meaning bethany involvement, i mean a lot of things that are right now. i don't think that any there is any focus on the international from india and all the focus is more or less on how to me and the government. and that's what push up the what. how does that, how you feel as well. the duffle is being completely overlooked at this point in time. yes, i think it has always been overlooked. look, i think. ready in the views i have heard the this seemingly interest intense interest in the media in that for why also in abilities where say, trying to show to watch that phone or at least go in the media. it did not actually help the actual people on the ground that they there was not

really robust piece building. there was no aid. there was no attempt to look at the roots of the issue. they were only putting some sort of just a, you know, meet over their cost quite a lot. but they with themselves would have less. most of the time the cars are car jacked and they cannot even and they go to the police last there to find it for them. so yes, and i think the conflict has also, as for stacy has dimension related transform mission in the has and the mind, tribal relationships. and i think also created and not only banditry, but the building of themselves will become a lively approach. so these distortions in the society and

in the environment need to was attention. yeah. can you just explain for people that might not know? what is the heart of the issue here, like up to 20 years it's still clearly hasn't been resolved. what can you just get to the heart of the issue here and explain it for people yet in the middle of the corporate people are security. and if you look at when the war is starting to struggle and to, to sit on and see these conflicts, we're now back in terms of level of conflicts to 2002 on 2004 in the listening. and the other thing, i think, what the cleveland station of the and electric community abandon issue that for, you know, doing the unity without having a credible for peacekeeping or wrote enforcement agencies that please sure that i think on the other issue is natural support for the 80 piece, and now many people are getting back to their business. so they can work. and they

cannot because they've been attack by the same malaysia, which is tar negotiated, that displacement and the killing in that. and i think that is a problem. i think the ontological need to overlook and simplify the issue that we're not giving it, that they need it attention. the actual address is a little girl and under math daniel line, forty's still there at mckinney is still there and we are back to square one. or else again, it does it feel like you are back at square one and, and what do you think is actually going to, you know, solve some of the, some of the problems that have, i guess, sprang back to the surface over the last couple of years no, i don't think we are, we are back to school. well, one is a very difficult time where we had from frontier between the force of the government, supported by the militia, again in some regions and so forth. well, i think we move this tip a bit, but there are a lot of ground to cover in terms of that

i believe that i mean the issue that when we question that, is it political from the center to resolve the conference or i don't think there is, i mean, in 2016, we have actually come up with a program for solomon that program was, that was implemented a very limited search. the only way to have, i mean, things normalize in that quote. if we draw the arms from the house, the people, i mean, i mean, a lot of nice people know everybody has anybody but he's willing to to attack innocent civilians too. and that's a fact. i mean, i mean there is a program i thought of intimacy. but at the same time, also, we feel that there are some issues with the central government. the senate going to

pay attention was going to put an end to them to the middle of the people of the hub. i mean, how do you go about deciding so many people and, and in a peaceful and secure way? i mean, is it even possible? yes, i think 310 is right in saying that the actual conflict are really conflicts. hello. died down. there is no longer fighting between government for shoes and movement, but on site i think as situation is now much worse than when the rebellion had started. and this might be might indicate that maybe the armored conflict was not the way to go about this. but anyway, that's,

that's now begun the issue is now when, when sudan, when this war started, that for as a state or region was more prosperous and she's now. and so that also had more resources that it had now because at that time, oil as the found and was, was flowing. and there was some respect, you know, they couldn't be of sudan has collapsed almost. so there is no way that we're about disarmament or any other thing. if you do not have resources, what you need is a plan for to start. she distracted her too much what it was now. also was said, most of the rebel groups are not, all of them are all part of the government,

but the government itself is not functioning at all. because there is now the conflict has now gone to the center. so what we probably need is 1st, re some consensus, own a democratic process, you start on east down as a whole the international committee them should come with some funds designated specifically for this organization that for returning the blessed people to the get home, the mobilizing, the dishes, then we'll have some, some movement at the moment. as i said, bearing arms had become a we'll flavor. yeah. that either the munitions are either paid by the government or are paid by, by 40 hours, or they go and pillage and roll to to live. so this

is a situation cannot and abuses taped face. we just said that there should be democratic consensus. i mean, what are the chances of that actually happening anytime soon? i think i believe it is probably more that gets responding going by. so i think if you look at all the piece agreement on a new book, they also are providing dogs on munitions for the additions under michael's. and the problem is attractive. this topic that will be called the cutting in the government because of the national security and the government supporting somebody. this is what our movement i meant to protect the people. i think not often. that is why i think that is the problem. after the option, the other thing is, i don't think all these agreement intention, dental work and dental article that would be an implement it on the ground or your

property when you go to the leaders or but when i'm not addressing the underlying orders of the problem, with the people which is demand security, the according to reach, i plan to get people can actually find enough work to, to contribute to just security. that's why i think what we need to do, you need to address that. it doesn't always be does not know what the point you really sure how well because if you're applying for the same element, we used to be didn't we committed these crimes to actually to be restored and i don't when people are posting, this is what is right to have the support for sponsible, from restoring people before they used to be part of the killing machine or sep, i think we need to have a credible force which is being rescued by the people. so they come, people can again,

but i'm sure that that particular i think that's the point to anything i did. i don't see any, any time that we're going to go back to that point. ok again. do you think that the, or is the possibility of a democratic election anytime soon? i guess, i mean to respond to what to do with him. i mean, in order, in order to put him into peace agreement, printed up people in position, there's no doubt about that. i mean, this is an emotional kind of argument, which some people say will say that the leaders, they only run full positions if you go back to the economy, to speak on behalf of the, of the risk. but, but i speak on behalf of those been involved in the piece agreement. if you look it up and ask people, how many schools are built, how many health sublease, how many police units we have, we have we have established. so we tell you, i mean, and the recalls on that, the only reason why that has not be so effectively it doesn't appeal in the media

simply because of the current situation in the region. us democracy, sponsor and i believe, i mean, you know, the company is it is because we are wise on regional meets is not possible to have a consensus on, on the move brought the program to implement the country. but we believe that these have some sort of, i mean, a consensus by $60.00 to $70.00 or 80 percent of the political parties and, and, and see the societies on a program for governing the transition. and it's not very difficult to, to, to, to anyone that but the way i see it right now is the international community. so it's not helping and disrespect they are actually dis,

my own believe that those who are involved from the community in, in providing support to the 70 to get all over the program that they're facing. know if in fact ticket your nissan, i think they're both still in groups and that, that does not help the company transform into any kind of kinetic system. i can just go back to the for the as a mode. they're mentioned yet quickly. what's important asked one of the most important issues that affect these, what is the real issue? you know, what's going on in libya? i mean, it's almost, i mean, this a fight fighting word on because such and maybe i got a number of that for that for a bit. yeah. fighting challenges, facing a little problems. center african republic does not have. i mean,

know that many thing they said throughout the region, there is a war going over there. usually very mean these little they go in and out for into living countries and they being and they're both in been within the board. so i think the issue of that when you know that there is the need that the international community should also have that we now see a russian french company moving over in that region center, africa and. and that's a lot of negative effects on security to induct otherwise, have you touch on that a little earlier about the international interest? and i think in 2006 it was when george clooney went to die for. and i guess put the conflict on the world stage, do you think that actually helped or hindered? because it seems like the situation didn't get much better in the years after that

to this i personally think it has hindered for many reasons because people became a focus on what is happening and what was already in washington. and even the people on that for where actually elated by recent told that the cover is going to come and the americans are great to send the troops and do what they did in iraq and remove a machine. and then for the, those people in that way they see fantasy and i would add that may be a little bit different. who is have me that in fact, yes, the military option taken by the rebellion had in house

and a security in house the poverty and destruction of the people. yes, of course we blamed that gene for having over reacted, but the rebel with themselves. jenny has said they have all she committed atrocities. sometimes again, if the own members buy in fighting they have also fragmented into smaller and smaller rival and land mortgage. and this is to an issue. and now regarding the issue to me, i think the people who are blocking consensus are minority in the afternoon that the hard liners in, in, and the freedom. and the movement have been always has been kind

of our bidding, which i can imagine. and we as, as observed, was, have told him, from the, in writing, in the early period, this extra them is me going to lead to more damage and destruction. and they allow themselves suffering from that. they are, the ones were supported different forces and they are the ones who supported behind and are the ones who will have that. but if you still have concerns abroad, the consensus now they, they, they cannot now the international community is not going to help sudan. if sudan doesn't help itself, you have to be a democrat, the government, and they have to be some, some positive interaction between the people. down for the that i think to me, i mean, i know you've worked extensively with humanitarian groups and on human and civil

rights, almost humanitarian labor. what to the people those displace people need now from, from within sir don, but also from the international community. i think people the support income too, but this is not an option. i think i said 8040 people ob workers what they needed security. and also i didn't think the issue of new stuff in many lounge was actually displacing the indigenous group within that area. the problem security that need to be addressed. so people can actually believe, i think that we need but very little support so they can rebuild their life again. but i think that that is not the actually we know of the government or even the peace agreement is not bad because we clearly from, with that being know we do, i don't think there priority. and i think i understand that, you know,

people cannot rely on whatever i think that have to stop because that the national community will have a fatigue from big but we're, we need to start presenting for these for people to well. but i thought that i was gonna keep going all the money if it have to happen. otherwise i will not happy since i think that that's a problem. but peter security is for this w beach for, you know, not only for the, even the regional and those who would and will become actual contribute to any sort of actually. and that is even end of the leave continues that we can offer to rebuild not also to destruct. i'll take out just before we have to go. i mean, people towel has changed things before. do you think that that is the only way to make lasting change from here on out? well, i think, i mean,

let me just answer the question that you plan on, on the international, on the international community. i mean, there are 2 tracks. i mean the other is the group and i do believe i agree with the advocacy group. in fact, in cody, this is a moment to increase the pressure on, on this a beat us in that for. and the conversion was so that it has affected the work groups as part of the supervision and 40 concerned priority number one is to enable the re fi and the idea is to go back to the areas of oregon. and that could only happen if there's a serious disarming of people in my program in that for without this amendment program, there is no way that i think and the issue that i'm very much concerned with is,

i mean the government can do that. why that it doesn't want to do that is the question that we need to do. but government has the combat roles the ability to do eat and i mean those, the program a summer may end up. or we may probably say, because we don't have a government, we don't have a credit in, in, in, in cars. but that is not an unexcused feeling is taking place in the day. and i have just come back from the way i was there for months or so, and i visited it is of companies where people lost their lives, some people out there. and by the way, the idp know me is not press number one. they then have become a producer, but the question is, when they go back on in the season,

rameses for farming that you know, that you thought to get it done. and this is where the government and this movie shows. so what parts beyond the armed forces and the security default. okay, unfortunately we're going to have to leave it there. thank you to all of our guests l to gunny c. c a bill while hob elephant and ha fees. mohammed, thank you for being on inside story today and thank you to for watching, you can see the program again any time by visiting our website al jazeera dot com, and for further discussion, go to our facebook page. that's facebook dot com, forward slash ha inside story. you can also join the conversation on twitter. handle is at a j inside story for me. tell mccrae and the entire team here and so ha bye for now .

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