sunshine around we will see you can tell a warm weather across a good part of the arabian peninsula as we go on through the next couple days. warming up here in doha with high a 29 on sunday. ah, thought the law will. the law, when with neither side, willing to negotiate is the ukraine war becoming a forever war is america's global leadership increasingly fragile? what will us politics look like as we had to the presidential election of 2024. the critical look at us politics, the bottom line. what we do in algebra is trying to balance this story and to the people who allow us into their lives, dignity, and humanity. israel in crisis, a wave of killings in israeli military raids, attacks on palestinian by jewish settlers and continuing protests against proposed changes to the judicial system are responsible as the countries knew far,

right government for the violence and the unrest. and how is it all likely to end? this is insight stored? ah hello, welcome to the program, i'm nick clock. so israel is in the grip of a political crisis driven by the policies of benjamin netanyahu. is far right, coalition government, a wave of israeli military raids has led to scores of palestinians been killed and injured. jewish settlers of a type palestinian communities under the watch of the israeli army, and widespread protests of applying judicial reforms of sweat the country and are intensifying. we'll be discussing all this in just a few moments with our guests, but 1st we're on con reports from occupied east jerusalem. and what's behind the current crisis?

the protests are holding firm for months now. protest has been out on the streets every saturday. are in large number in places like tel aviv hi fun wish to receive them and they getting their voice heard and they putting pressure on the prime minister and this government. they say that the judicial reform bill is anti democratic. the ability of the candidates over 10 supreme court decisions is a big driving factor in the antique democratic accusation that the protesters keep saying is happening. the government's referring to them as anarchists. they say that these people are being funded by a foreign hand. what do they mean by that? well, the effectively, they mean the cia which is extraordinary to had given israel's relationship with the united states of america. but that relationship is under threat as well. for a mr. benjamin netanyahu absolutely desperate to go to 2 key places. the united arab emirates and the united states, both of those countries on extending the invite, the, perhaps the prime minister would like. and the reason for that is the makeup of his

government. in order to get power, he had to give concessions a to the fall, right? people like the finance minister smarter'n, who actually the other day said the palestinian village and the occupied west bank of laura should be wiped out by the israeli state. now you also have the mar banga who is the national security minister on wednesday. he ordered police to crack down on protesters in tel aviv that's never been seen before. stung grenades we used, there was moved to cannons being used heavy handed. right. and these tactics kind of thing we see against palestinians, hey, in occupied east jerusalem on a regular basis, but never in television. but there is a large amount to silent majority of people in israel that support benjamin netanyahu. and this government, they say they need to have a heavy hand when it comes to the palestinians when it comes to dealing with is

really protesters as well. however, that's angering a lot of the protestors who are now saying that we are headed towards being a dictatorship, that prime minister benjamin netanyahu eventually wants to become that dictator. also a lot of analysts, harris suggesting that the only reason for this just judicial reform bill as being discussed in the kinessa, is because the problem is that another ministers have court cases against them. now all of that is coming to a head. what that head looked like, we have no idea, but something is brewing and the protesters know it, the palestinians know it. and this is really government knows it as well. and we're on con, for inside story occupied east jerusalem. ah. while for more on this, i'd join now by our guests until it eve is gideon levy is economists for the israeli newspaper. it's in haifa. is sayed a member of the national leadership at standing together,

which is the largest arab jewish grassroots movement in israel. and in brussels, we have stephen alaska, whose chief, diplomatic correspondent in europe for the new york times. welcome to all of you, gideon. i'd like to start with you before we get into what all this means. just trying to get an idea of the level of support or otherwise for this, these so called reforms that we've seen widespread pros, protests for weeks now. what proportion of society do they represent? you think it's very hard to judge about. it's very clear that. ready a lead to is very intellect, financial than the military. a lead israel is against this reform. while the lower classes is also about the class, a conflict, a conflict between classes, they the lower classes are students supporting that then you know,

and by the end of the day it is half and half, roughly speaking and stay longer would you agree with that is would that be your assessment as well? that's what it certainly looks like. a b, b has always fancied himself, the representative of the sort of left behind of the north african shoes. this is what the crude began would what monarch and beg and again and be in inherited. what strikes me is the anger from the elite dawn talks about. it's like they've been woken up from asleep. right now, sally, you're one of the many, many, many protests against these changes. you're from standing together just to give us some context. just tell us a little bit about your group, what it represents and, and what you stanfull absolutely um is standing together is a, you mentioned that a we are a grassroots movement and we work at throughout the country locally as well as

nationally, around dishes of peace equality and social justice and their what standing together is really trying to do through these protests which are obviously a, you know, not lead by one and movement, but rather is led by, you know, tens of different organizations and organized group as well as, and very organic and mobilization of the israelis who are going on to the streets. and what we are trying to do is really understand also it strategically, as well as a politically what's the best. a way we can capitalize on this moment to moment clearly is when you represent all sides of the spectrum and you've been protesting today what and throughout the last few weeks, what, what sense of you got the mood, the mood is very, very accurate to out there good on, and stephen really, ah,

and described, you know, it is the elite and, and it, while that's good because usually the elite does have a certain power and it's usually it can voice out. it's frustrations and it demands in much more effective way. it's not enough. and what we're trying to do is, is to expand that to the palestinian citizens of israel, who obviously opposed the reforms and the current government, but are not taking any active part in these protest as well as to the social and geographic paraphrase of israel. which as was mentioned as well, are the support base of the current government. what's your sense of the 1st question i pose of how much opposition is there for these measures and how much support the question is not about support. if you really look at the junctions of freel change and really, you know, revolutions a, you need active opposition. and at the moment, as i said before, unfortunately, the current a protest is, is it over looking at ha,

and the base of the current government, which is geographic, economic and social geographies of his read ab to a periphery sorry of his read ab. but said they are also over looking at the air palestinians in israel, which i think are the key. and so i am, i would say that they are a large minority, but say they are still a minority. right? is dba in your role in jerusalem previously as bureau chief for the new york times that you got to know at netanyahu very well. what do you think his motivations are for these changes from, from his point of view? well, i can't read into his brain 1st of all and very complicated. i think he's confused themselves. but there's a political element, which is he wants to stay in power. his base is changing, it's becoming more religious, more right wing. and he has made basically he's gone to

bed with some people he wouldn't have touched in the past, and he's done that to be in power. and he likes being in power. and in some ways he's pretty good at it. but there's another element which is simply personal, which is he wants to stay out of jail, as long as he's in power. he has immunity from prosecution for a long standing charges that get on those a lot more about than i do, but basically have to do with corruption and taking benefits in office. so as long as the prime minister, who stays on jail, and as long as he's in bed with some of these very ultra religious, close, close to ultra right wing coalition partners, he gets to stay in power, right. it's a complicated issue and i think in his own head,

i hope there's some degree of ambivalence knowing him as you have done. does his positioning surprise you, steve, in any way from the man you 1st met? well, it's like asking me about. i used to know him too, and people change and people get a bit, a bit desperate. i think b b has a bit of a, of a kind of, he's narcissist and he thinks he's the best to be israel. and i think he worries about iran and he words about lots of things and he believes he can control his coalition partners. but i we have to see whether that's actually true. does he really wanna upturn the entire israeli constitutional system? i suspected of heart of hearts. he doesn't, but i'm not sure he knows quite how to manage what he's now

in bed with get in. what's your sense? i couldn't agree more with these a. i think that in many ways, benjamin anthony is the story of the tragedy. a highly gifted putting titian and intellectual, someone who is the most beloved and the most hated figure is really going to, for the last 15 years or so. and is postal pushed himself into an impossible corner in which is the rightly mentioned. he find himself surrounded by people that he wouldn't like to be surrounded with and in positions that i'm not sure he's position, but the train left the station. he's there. he's there right now he's prisons, create a really political presence, creates

a term term or for is way which by the way might end up in a good way. because for people like me, the last decade is red decades of an ongoing masquerade. in which nobody, with anything except off the next the cation and the next you g. and here, all of a sudden, these already so side to walk. it woke up on the wrong reasons, it keeps an blind eye over the base which is 10 times more closer for the future of. busy then why don't legal reform on another one, but still there is a wake of court, benjamin and you know, created by his behavior. and now it's all about women and are only about the legal reform, or really, really bring his ready to start to think about them center looking online and to

see why we don't they see that we are living there by staying until now they didn't see maybe this will lead them to realize in or just think they're living in a and there lazy. all right, we'll explore that a little bit more in just a 2nd. but sally of it, i just wanted to ask you, where do you think this is all heading? it's hard to believe this government's only been in place, what for just a couple of months and the tone has been very quickly set, has net with all this violence and, and the rates and so forth. and indeed this pushing through the, the changes at you to the judiciary. what's your sense about where this is going and, and what about the protests? how do you think megan a gather pace or not an i definitely am. you know, a, this is a very air essential. this is a junction, a historic junction for that is rarely a public to who is for the 1st time. i think,

really questioning. ah, you know, the idea of democracy, democracy for the 1st time is really on that mean table being discussed. i agree with good on that i think a, you know, the main discussion was triggered by the wrong reasons. and, and i do think that it's our, it, the question really the, the question is whither that and you left that is emerging in east red and which didn't exist. ah, you know, for, for many years and now is a little bit stronger than it was before. i left that as jewish arab, in essence, a left that is more progressive. that is also, it will be successful to talk to not only it in the elite, the, well, the old elite, which is now on the streets as well as palestinians and eas,

read with condition on partnership that we had. now we are creating a new kind of partnership and can you kind of majority in is read a society that can talk to, but a simians. and to the paraphrase, as i mentioned before, if we are able to capitalize on that and redefine democracy, not only restore it for the jews. and by the way, not just for the jewish people, but also for a very certain, a groups of the jewish israelis. because if you, i mean that i mean right now, and if you ask the a, you know, if your parents, if you ask a former us, is our immigrants, they also tell you that they don't feel like they were fully it part it fully partners of the israeli democracy. and so i think this is the question right now. do we want to redefine democracy and i can tell you what's, what's gonna happen. i do think that we're not as big as we want to be. and coming to this moment to this very critical moment. but i do think that there are many

opportunities that we'll be able to take with us for the next and, and hopefully we'll be able to compete with very interest. but it's the question, could this be a tipping point, steve? i mean, well, that is one thing that he says for these railey public question. what's happening? what about the international community? and i'm sure getting my mind me question what he right. and that the far what the far right has done is to remove the mass that enables western complacency. so the question steve, is, will this precipitate anything meaningful? as far as the international community is concerned, or overall things, the state is quite just me on their own. i have to say in my experience, you know, in america and in europe to there has been kind of reluctance to recognize that israel has changed considerably in the last 15 years. there is still an image of an old israel, which is

a little more liberal and so on. israel as everyone here knows it on the show is becoming more right wing. more religious, tougher in its views about its own arab citizens, let alone palestinians, which supports more and more settlements grabbing land. this is not, you know, your grandfather's israel and i think young americans and i would say, you know, americans under, let's say 35, do have trouble with this israel. i mean, sometimes in simple terms, they just see israel as creating palestinian victims. people aren't very sophisticated about the complications of a small, complicated, intimate country which israel is and people aren't nurse facilitated about the

problems of the palestinian authority and what it's actually like on the west bank and in gaza. i admire you don't levy for writing about these things for so long and force so well. but i think right now the world is looking at ukraine. that's what i have been doing for the last year. and it's attention is, is on israel right now. it's quite intermittent, but in the long run i think this kind of thing hurts very much hurts israel's image in the rest of the world and it's leverage at the same time, you know, we see israel moving toward better relations with the gulf with arab countries. so that's going on to and, and we shouldn't forget that that's also the work of people like people who get in

. what do you think? could it foresee international hand to act further, role is it's still going to be looking elsewhere. and steve says, i wish i would then be disagree with, says stephen, tell you that the world change now and the world we will start to think is as it israel bob, it's a long way to go. ready it's a very long way to go, both in the united states any day you but they are for signs and would say 55 years. so look, your patient didn't do a few months. so, oh, for progress. again, some legislations they do because you see the europe, even the germans will be in there to criticize israel. more than in the united states is giving a call to, to let. and you know, this is lasting,

obviously, because as long as the word will not move from, from talking from condemnations or condemnation to deeds like you knew very way to do with russia. like then you were very well overseas to do so. so as long as it will not rule from a, from talking to these 2 actions, nothing would change. but i think there is an opening now because as, as again, for him to mention still the time. but as the say there is a new generation. and steve mentioned also that jewish new generation in the united states which start lost some questions. i mean, young americans are asking, where is our tax money going to isn't really the place deserve so much money extent, which ignores our policy ignores our request. i don't know,

so it's a long way to go. but it's a nice beginning, sally, do you think premise and netanyahu under estimated the strength of opposition? that would be to this i don't think so. i think he be was dead aware and anticipating this kind of opposition. i just think that he didn't, ah, have a choice. he didn't have a choice and i am a, he is very ill. i don't know. however, if he was aware of how much and you know when you're desperate, i don't think he was very it calculating without underestimating his his genius. honestly, i do think that he, he may be underestimated the kind of predicament he's going to find himself in a within israel, but also a, you know, with the international community. and do you think the ongoing attacks on

palestinians will intensify? a more alarm grubbs will be made in settlements during the settlement during what later? i think so, unfortunately, this is the one think escalations in the, in the occupied territories and the air with their, with palestinians, especially palestinians in the occupied territories, is something that is a, has been a very useful tool for, for a bebe nathan, yahoo, historically. and we see that now as well, they are really, i is trying to provoke and allowing ampro vacations let's say i'm going to be very soft and say, allowing and not say, even leading those provocations and not to paper. and you know, and the ministers in his, there a government and it works why it works because it's polarizes exactly in the opposite direction that benefits them. it polarizes a jewish people against, ah, if palestinians and it definitely creates

a false sense of unity and within the jewish public, which is exactly what would serve them right now. i don't think it's working though . and even though you know, i was very critical of the protests and the fact that they did not a criticize and or they did not and oppose not just a traditional reform, but the settler reform and that, that deepening f, a flat occupation and appetite. and we see really steep, very determined steps towards apartheid, not just in the occupied territories, but also here for me as a palestinian in israel. and i do think that and he is and really a aware of that and, and it's, it's, it's very, it's a very dangerous situation that we stayed. i just want to bring you in. finally, of course, money in the pocket always has an effect on the street as net. this is had

a big impact on the economy, a credit ratings agencies looking very closely at downgrading israel. how do you see that putting it out? what kind of effect could that have? well, that creates pressure to because i'm in b, b has been one of the best finance ministers israel ever had. but i would just go back in the last moment i have to work sal is that i think she's making of a very good point, which is violence can be used in all kinds of ways. it can be provoked, it can create false unity, false fears, real fears. this is why i say, you know, babies writing a tiger, but he's got to be careful because the tigers hungry and get in. how do you think this is going to end? if i would tell you that i know i would just cheats you, nobody knows how it can and you can't see any scenario which ends because both

sides are now very strong in their minds. they might be something from the outside which may will make a change, for example, an uprising of the union. and some kinds of violins can boot an end to this, or at least temporarily. and but no doubt it is well after the stem or will know to be the same israel. the only question is easy going to be better or worse is. and this is unfortunate. she is very open question. yes, sally. finally, let's and you then, at what is your sense about how this is going to go over the next weeks and months . i didn't know about 2 weeks and months. i do, you know, that as you know, as an organizer and as a list indian, as an activist here in israel. and i know that this is the time, you know, we are at the very, very dangerous times that they're not reversible. i do think that

it, i'm not underestimating the things that can be reversible, that will limit our space to act. it will limit me as fellow study and you know, with the things that i can say and the things that i can do within israel with that being said, i also think that we need to look for the not just the next week and the next protest and the next reaction to this government, but we need to start thinking of how to pro, actively attack this government and strategically build a new kind of opposition and israeli society. and with that really redefine the left and redefined israeli democracy in many ways and israeli society and that doesn't take weeks or months. it takes years. and i think this will be a, the point where i hope a more people will join us into building this new space. or,

i hope so it's, it's been a big, important conversation, perhaps at a critical moment. i do appreciate your time. thanks all august, gideon, levy, sally, i bet, and i steven like i thanks a lot. and thanks for watching you can see the program again any time by visiting our website, delta 0 dot com. and for further discussion, just go to our facebook page. that's facebook dot com, forward slash ha inside story. and you can also join the conversation on twitter. o handle is at a j inside story. for me, mccloud and whole team here is good bye for now. mm. with

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