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al jazeera anger and protests in george's capital against the proposed new law opponent, say the so called foreign agents bill will punish critics and restrict the media. so what's behind this legislation? this is inside story. ah hello. walked into the program, i'm how much i'm john. a bill making it's way through. george's parliament has led to protests and anger. the so called foreign agents proposed law would require in g o z and media outlets with more than 20 percent of foreign funding to register with the state. the government insists this will bring more transparency to foreign influence in the former soviet republic. but opponents say it's a way to crack down on critics and control the media. thousands georgians protested

outside their parliament in tbilisi this week, demanding the bill be withdrawn. they say if passed, it could derail their country chances of joining the european union. george's president is also against the bill and has threatened to veto the measure. is unknown. always always softer. no one needed this lot on it came from nowhere. but maybe it was dictated from moscow. it needs to go. it needs to be repealed any way you want. i said from the 1st day that i would veto this law and i will deter it. the presidential veto can be over ruled by parliament, but the government may face yet. other hurdles, e. u foreign policy chief, joseph burrell, says the bill is incompatible with you values and would have serious consequences for relations. washington is also opposed saying it puts at risk georgia's ambitions for closer integration with the west. we're so deeply concerned and troubles, of course, for what this could mean for the people of georgia. but also because the united states has been a partner to georgia over the course of recent decades. they had me tremendous

progress in becoming the democracy that they sought from those earliest days in integrating georgia into the euro, atlanta community, and ensuring that georgia stays on that path. now, however, we see a draft piece of legislation that would be a tremendous setback. this would be a set back to the aspirations of the people of georgia. it would be a set back to the ability of the united states to continue to be a partner for the people of georgia or before we start, we did reach out for a representative of the georgia government or a politician backing the legislation, but were unable to get anyone to appear on the program. but 3 in our yes. now in london, maximilian hess, a fellow at the foreign policy research research institute in tbilisi, helen kush shitoria politician and founder of the george an opposition party drawer . and in dublin, donna ha,

or behind author and professor of post soviet politics at dublin city university. a warm welcome to you all. and thanks so much for joining us today on inside story helen, let me start with you today. what exactly is behind this legislation? you know, right, alkaline that this legislation is part to the overall context of georgia shifting from it's very important historically pre determined european path or the 10 years of the current current government. there have been serious question marks. one. what if we exactly behind the russian oligarch was informally ruling this country, namely all the garbage industry. and after the war in ukraine started, i think the questions and disappeared and the answer has become very clear. he's a russian guy and their book is control was basically moving ga, into russian direction and, and way from our european perspective,

which has become even more realistic against the big wrong brand background of the ukranian war. now, all those trends have cost several really so the slowly here, but this legislation has turned out to be a red line for many different types of groups in georgia, people, political parties, even people who are quite loyal to the current current government like the current president or like civil groups, media and others. and what we have seen yesterday and several days before was a very united, very overwhelming, a unification of all pro western forces. saying that no georgia is not going to be like russia. we're not going to wait for an agent. those organizations weren't getting financial funds to strengthen george and democracy will not be called for

in agents like he's down in russia like in russia, those organizations are disappearing and we're committed to our european path. and that was the main, and he's still being, i'm now sitting at the central now street or face and watching many groups of young people really to the center. and it's continuing. so people are completely to defend their own european future. maximillian, was it expected that this bill would pass? so overwhelmingly, during its 1st reading? well, firstly, i think it's worth knowing that you know, what is exactly correct about the way that this was been interpreted. russia has had foreign asian was for the last and years and it's used to shut down a whole variety of independent groups. and just essentially, anyone critical this law here has been proposed initially by a faction nominally broke away from the ruling georgia. dream party just called

people's power but is essentially very much still controlled by them. i, with the man behind the scenes, former prime minister who still dominates georgia politics. the government has sort of played fast and loose with this initially. it wouldn't be held yesterday then table move that ahead. but george and politics are highly fractures, a large portion of the opposition, the legislature as a research, controversial measures. so the government has the bus in there to get through. but engage us in a lot of stage management and to make it look like democratic processes are being done. we know that brussels is considering your membership for georgia. if this bill does ultimately become law, how much would that impede george's hopes of closer ties with the u. n. n. a potential membership? well,

the representatives have made it clear that he would fundamentally jeopardize georgia european perspective. we have to remember that georgia applied for e u candidate status, back in february, along with ukraine and, and moreover, and unique among the troika of africans. it was turned down for a candidate status and instead given something of a substitute called the acknowledgment of their european perspective. and they were given kind of a list of things they would have to to achieve before getting you kind of started so that it already separated them from other applicant countries like your brain, moldova. and there's a suspicion that the georgia government is while formerly reflecting the will of the georgia people to join the european union. its heart is not in the process and acts like these today, which the european union have purity said you are jeopardizing the european pop. would you yourself say you would like to travel on illustrative of the fact that

the georgia government isn't itself not committed to joining your atlantic structures? and people have argued why that is some of trees to back as deputy for story. as mentioned to the fact that georgia is ruled de facto by an oligarchy, busy and even really who made these money. billions. indeed, in russia the 1990 and has power or not responsibility in georgia. maximillian, i saw you shaking your head with a lot of what the doctor was saying there. did you want to jump in? oh no, sorry. i was not in your agreement. sorry, that's what i meant. you're not in agreement, but he's going to yes, the point on and where he stands. i think this really gets to the heart of the issue. just point that, you know, he's taking certain actions to stop georgia from proceeding down his european is a very fair and just comment. the question is to what extent loyal to our support

of fusion and the current. and that i think is a very nuanced issue. because wal, yes, he did make his money in russia in the 90s, or who came to power? who did allow him to leave georgia with his money around 2008 in russia or georgia with his money to sell off a number of interest. but he vanished really, really puts his own interest before anyone else and he sees that the government needs. so i'm getting drawn in to the sort of pro western narrative. he has stopped the government from implementing sanctions. although the majority of georgia financial institutions comply with them and you're in georgia, if you go shopping, it will even say, you know, you have to agree the buyer. you even want us to serve you. so the public or it is very strong there, but he's refrained from that because he sees it is potentially risky in georgia being brought into the war with russia. russia continues to occupy 20 percent of

georgia territory, a controlled by the russian military. so he is trying to sort of play game with the question is, you know, is it really because he wants to be friends, moscow, or he wants to protect his own decision? that is a very difficult question to answer. but as actions like this continue to happen in the eyes of many of churches, youth in particular, but a large section of the population he effectively is leading him. the brand as pollutants, stop it. and that is a very dangerous situation in the country were anti criminal sentiment is extremely widespread. overly legacy of the 2008 war, the continued on mission and russian efforts to the stabilized order. and helen at the georgia president has said that she's prepared to, to veto this bill a, but apparently, as i understand it, that can be overwritten by parliament. eventually, i want to ask you as far as parliamentary procedure,

where does the bill go from here before it would actually become law because things seem very tense in problem or i now, i mean that there were, there were fist fights in the last session and people are quite angry about this so, so what happens next? well, it takes several times before it's finalized, but that's not the core of the issue. and this is michael, interested him just outline the whole story. he say about the context, what kind of rule in georgia, we have, basically this guy became an issue. no matter was the motivation behind him, whether it's a direct instructions from the kremlin or is his motivation to do anything current to just keep power. and it's clear that i see the influence of russia over the years, and especially after the war ukraine has been increasing in this country. he's pursuing the russian propaganda. he has created a special group within his party,

which is all the time predominantly occupied with a tech, inc, european and american ambassadors and tech. if you're a good ukrainian officials, taking your grant and making the point that you can is losing the war. rush, a strong west is not supporting, you are still all those narratives that are very close to what the, what to what russia is saying. so this one, the one handed on the other hand, he has captured all the state institutions. what proceed very much like in russia, we have formerly the parliament formally, we have the vision of powers. formerly we have for the kitchen office formula. we have the court system, but basically we have none of them because function and they're totally under his personal control. we have to call political prosecution prosecution and in the meantime, by only national organizations, for example, head of the media own, their negro out army i was arrested right. or the decision of the you about the

candidacy. the 3rd president of georgia is in jail and he's human rights and hells are totally violated. and we have over and over time, many, many political percentages. so basically, all the institutions are under his control and whether it's vito or whether he peers debates in, in the parliament. if he decides to do so the, the law will be enforced. now the whole issue is to what extent george in public will protest and resist not to accept these clinical or mo, adoption of the law. and i think yesterday, and the days before have shown that it was kind of the last drop that people are fed out with this kind of an informer rule. with this increase of russian employees . and people are serious about taking the resistance. i don't know how long it will take, but it's clear that no government in georgia has managed to derail people's commitment

to europe in future. donahoe looks like you want to jump in. i will give you that chance. but i do want to ask you about the fact that helen mentioned these protests that are ongoing. and i wanted to ask you how significant the protests are and if you expect that they will be growing the protest are significant certainly, and i think that there is a moment behind them. so i would expect that they might roll days and weeks progress. but these are, these are not solitary protest wrapping protests, you know, on, on a number of issues over many years. now. i mean, this government has been in power for a decades. and you might say there's an important context to this in george and political history when you protest the cross, of course occur in every country, but in georgia, they have a tendency to trigger major revolutionary ships and government. even if you go back to, to 989 when soviet troops killed civilians on roster valley avenue exactly where the protests are taking place. now, you know that ledge, ultimately to a complete power shift in georgia and indeed the soviet union ultimately. and

similarly the successors gumps, according to edward shepherd, not a even soc, is really all learn to be wary of these huge protests that would take place as a catalyst for or for regime change for government losing control. and they've all taken place in the exact same spot, most the valley avenue to todd states through to the side of parliament. it's been a traditional site protest. so no government can, i guess, you know, ignore these types of protests, of the level of force that's being used at these protests, recent protests has been indiscriminate, has been disproportionate. it's been a major own goal, not only domestically it doesn't, it doesn't stay power. it actually just stays weakness, but they're not willing to enter into a dialogue with people who have legitimate protest or with their partners internationally. i mean, from the use perspective, you know, they're looking at hungry right now, for example, and victor or they don't want another. all forward hearing government joining the european union. that's the way they're looking. a ga, ga is only of interest your opinion if it's an,

a waste of liberal democratic values in kind of a desert of all or terry rule. and also be sure if it becomes just another post soviet all power, terry and governance, it loses, it's interesting european union. and i think that that's digested by many people in georgia just while you're this very, i think emotional response that they feel that they're losing their way to europe and, and are willing to defend european values in georgia as a says even if requires very, very strong protests, helen, you were speaking before about the protests that are ongoing in the streets. i want to ask you about a different type of protest. in february, you had dozens of media outlets and civil society groups that announced that if the law are is passed, eventually they are not going to comply with it. obviously there's a lot of concern from critics of this proposed legislation that this would have a chilling effect. a detrimental effect, potentially on, on media, on journalist in jos civil society. what would happen to these groups if this does

become law and that, and they don't comply with it? well for so this one we have to do all we can to, to, to or is this to make sure that there will be scared into not adopting it. that's wanting the secondly, they still do that. i think there are 2 passes that we should poll. one is disobedience and all be still society, organizational media, everyone and just refuses to comply. it very difficult for them to implement the road to, to the law. of course, they can still follow up with some restrictive measures, but the total disobedience will, will have a serious effort. and the other goal with that we have to on the road that we have to go down our international friends. and we have been discussing the possible sanction, the state against the personal sanctions about those people who are against the west work is ukraine. we're actually undermining georgian democracy or

the personal personal sanctions against the now even is really himself. so international pressure is also an important factor. and here we should see the whole picture, also geopolitics, that it's not just a tiny problem in a tiny country, but in the region, i think within a when you release any remaining oligarch under his influence. and if we're talking about the war in ukraine, if we want to get rid of freshman influence in the region and find some new solutions to the region. and i think that the defeating even is really tight rulers is extremely important for our friends to. so i think there are, there's 2 ways that the resistance, disobedience and international pressure maximillian from, from your vantage point. how much of a chilling effect do you think this proposed legislation could have when it comes to george and civil society groups and jose, even journalists, i mean,

what do you think could happen? i do really worry that it can have a very showing effect. georgia has an incredibly vibrant media sphere. a lot of outlets are heavily politicize, either the government or against it, but a number of independent outlets as well. many of which do get international funding and are supported by other or other foreign governments. this is really helped set georgia apart and the georgia such a leader in the region in terms of media vibrancy, civil society. and i can never get a number or even a number of the officials in the current georgia dream government went through a lot of these programs were supported by them. you know, the real risk that i worry about, or is russia in particular, has long been very adept at using corruption and political leads across the former

soviet space to try to lean on them and get the kind of action that he wants. even in countries that a, for example, and then what we may really see happen out of this is the georgia independence essentially falls because it stops, it's your atlantic agenda. and then the current georgia government sort of last week or else to look in there. of course, there has been a huge amount of russian money coming in to george over the last year. russians with fled conflicts and the draft in russia, bringing their own employees, bringing their wages. but of course, you know, accusations that georgia could potentially serve as a result for sanctions as well. and, you know, with even a really being really the only individual calling the shots. it's a potential very dark day. and this is really weak in the ability to have opposition against them and raise the prospects of the next election next year, which are already some criticisms of the most recent one will be less democratic

and that would be huge tragedy for the people. first and foremost, but for the wider region where georgia has so long served as a beacon of hope in progress, and were many georgians want to have a continued play that role going forward. done. if i saw you reacting there to some what maximilian was saying, do you want to jump in? yeah, i mean it's, it's, it's very dispersing now for, for, for many, many georgians because they don't see an exit strategy from this. the government has huge resources at its disposal and then you have even as feelies personal fortune which runs into 1000000000. so those things combine, make it very difficult for any opposition to emerge in the opposition to politically organized opposition is fragmented. one of their key leaders, of course, misha soccer field is in prison. something again, which is attracted very negative attention in the you and in the west. and, and this law is seen as an attempt to, to, you know, close out the small, you know, fragile elements of

a vibrant civil society which represent the only means for many people to critique the government. i mean, the government have polarized society and invited artificially into patriots to support the government. and anybody who is critiquing the government on issues of human rights of democracy, of rule of law is anti georgia and anti church. and that is not only polarizing, but it's also untrue. and because a lot of these organizations depend on external funding for the simple reason that the government isn't going to fund organizations who are interested in promoting democracy and human rights, critiquing the government who's going to fun, for example, an organization like transparency international, who are interested in looking at corruption and in society if not external factors so. so this is very dangerous and i think most george is realised that is a critical crossroads. now for georgia, they seen the parts of europe open up with you train, and moldova candidate status mean been accepted. we see that this is possible for georgia, but they see it being taken away really by the government's own actions. how it, why are there motivated? concerning those actions are detrimental to georgia's european path. helen,

let me pick up on a point that donna was, was making there and ask you about it. he was saying that when it comes to some of these groups, it enjo civil side groups that, that they are a dependent upon foreign funding. i want to ask you about that. um, how, how, how necessary is it for these groups or that, that monitor of government activities in these, these n g o is the civil society groups? how, how, how much are they dependent upon getting foreign funding to continue the work that they are doing? i think that the foreigners support and support for a democratic values, right. is a justice reform, it's human rights to basic human rights. it's like many vital human rights issues that are supporting the support to financially now by our partners. and it's, i would say now if the only source that makes them alive in this country, including our organizations, because what the government, d. e. it, we don't have

a play level field in either in politics or say, well, you know, social alive. because the government has concentrated all the resources, they are pressuring business is not the support team critical point of view. so they are basically no resources whatsoever. again, is a big on the dna when it really has money more than george and budget and he has all the institutions under his control. so it's exactly my aimed at killing all the remaining resources of a political organization in georgia. and this why was all understand that what maybe last bastion of democratic fighting georgia after prosecuting political, many political parties are to polarization after the propaganda, in dispute edition campaigns against politicians. now the time has come to eliminate the critical media and en deals. but everybody understand that it's not

just about angels, but it's about generally the future of democracy in this country and feature of europe of this country maximillian. it looked to me like you wanted to interject a point to wanted to jump into the conversation. go ahead. yeah, good point to add to that is that you know, this is an incredibly, broadly worded piece of legislation. you know, almost any kind of interaction with foreign underscore and owners not being sure who things are resale to cause one to register or be required to register. and then you have to understand the language around specifically this use of, or an agent in the way the government, and on particular of its parliamentary proxies. i have spoken about. this is one that uses the word for an agent almost as a can for spine in a way of trying to mean those and ball. the government has tried to defend itself

against me by saying all the semantic issue. and you know, this is just our version of what in the u. s. or an agent registration act, very narrow piece of legislation that applies to lobby in washington, or here in the u. k. where there's also an attempt to build up a lobby register and that kind of activity is very good and should be welcomed when one is directly was getting money, advanced registration. that should be this one. but this is really a version similar to what i mentioned. you know, have been introduced in russia more than a decade ago, and i credibly broad across essentially seeking to be used as a tool to our and denigrate people and remove them from the political space maximillian. i'm sorry, interrupt. you just have about a minute left of i just want to turn to you one last question. how do you foresee this playing out going forward? well, as i said, it's very disparaging for people who are not to support the government right now in georgia who are advocating for more intrusive and more democratic and more human

rights orientated society. because as i said, they can see an exit strategy. but as i said, the, the longer view of jordan history is fast oppositions don't usually win power governments lose them and they lose them by not reflecting the will of the people. and as, as has been said by deputy, sorry, that has been consistently over many decades been towards europe and they have a choice between europe are russia and the majority of georgia people consistent shown to want to go to new york and the government are taking them away from that path, and that is something that will ultimately rebound in the government. and therefore, the government itself, i think, will will, in the, in the medium term, at least it's position of georgia site. he's on the in question. all right, well we have run out of time to we're going to have to leave the conversation there . thanks so much. all of our guests maximillian has helen cost aria and then i have a hon. thank you for watching. you can see the program again any time visiting our website at 0 dot com and for further discussion, go to our facebook page. that's facebook dot com,

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