zimbabwe, southern parts of milan at wet weather, pushing a little further northwards into mozambique and back out into the channel. ah, the dakota oil pipeline snakes through indigenous land. but not without like a fan book right in front of the building. and they were beaten, arrested, and so it's protected. they are be dave and self proclaimed water protective. women of standing rock on out is there the biggest processed yes against benjamin netanyahu is fall right? government and it's plans to overhaul the judiciary along with the iran saudi deal . he's facing mounting problems at home and abroad. but how serious is, is whales,

political crisis. this is inside story. ah, ah, ah, hello, welcome to the program. i'm adrian finnegan. huge crowds demonstrated in israel on saturday night for the 10th week running with some estimate saying that as many as half a 1000000 people turning out against benjamin netanyahu government at its plans to reduce the power of the supreme court. the new legislation would give parliament the power to override court rulings allow politicians to appoint judges and prevent judicial review of the basic laws that serve as his whales de facto constitution. for supporters of that, yahoo, it is far right allies. the policy represents a necessary cub on activist judges, but its cause dismay at opposition within his rails political and military

establishment, as well as bringing hundreds of thousands on to the streets. i missed a demonstration to sound my voice against a ship, the stub this year. in the name of the so called low judge col reform, it's not the judge, colorful, it's a revolution making is read, go to the full extent to shoot. and i want to say a democracy for my kids, for my grandson will be here because it is a democracy country and it's my stays with . if you'll give the bible only is that the people and then you can expect them

just against boy. so don't policy, i mean, if we were i will minutes. i and i would be very worried that someone's gonna fall back in the bass and they're going to write same as a, the guys and the community. and this is the executive. it doesn't want to be, we are protesting because if not it's, it's like compliance and we will never agree to have a fee abolish in this country. it's really important that we raise awareness all around the world of not just in israel, but all over the world. if anyone tries to do what they're trying to do, you, people will go out and demonstrate it's really important. and the concern extends beyond the protest. us on the straight stays early. other countries president attack the planned cups on the judiciary as a threat to the countries political fabric. we call a hockey gush shinny don k at the verda. the entirety of the legislation that's being currently discussed in the committee needs to be taken off the table and

faster at if it is erroneous and his aggressive and it's undermines our democratic foundation, this tail. most of our law i o. d ali came, are you all parties of the house bear the responsibility, the choice is one or either a disaster or a solution, i'm sure, but that will begin our discussion with our guests in just a moment. but 1st im ron con reports from tel aviv. the o guys is the protest. say they're about 500000 people in various different places . places like heifer televi wish to receive the were out on the streets. that's out of a population of about 9500000. so it's a significant chunk of the people that were out on the streets that's putting the government under a tremendous amount of stress. now the government for weeks has referred to the protesters as anna case on saturdays demonstration. in television, i saw people with prep package with effectively that resume on a placard saying, i served in these really ami. i've been

a teacher for 35 years. and yet they call me an anarchist. however, for all of those types of slogans were all the polar political slogans. the vast overwhelming majority of people were carrying the israeli flag. this is a nationalistic demonstration. the people are worried that democracy is under threat to the digital reform bill will give the can s at the parliament, the power to overturn some supreme court decisions. and that's what's driving these protests and they are getting bigger and bigger every week. now that's worrying the government because if the government start seeing the seep into their base, that's very concerning for them. because remember, benjamin netanyahu and his far right coalition have a very strong base. and there's a silent majority of people that support this government because they think it's an incredibly strong government. now, benjamin netanyahu can't still pass this bill. he has a majority in parliament, is a 120 seats. he has 61 of those. so if the coalition holds,

he will be able to pass. the bill, however, is already present. isaac hertzog is looking for a compromise. he's looking to tone down some aspects of the bill and he's reaching out to people to try and be able to do that. whether he succeeds or not, that's a matter of internal internal israeli politics, but there is more pressure on benjamin netanyahu as well. political satirist suggest the one of the reasons he spending each weekend abroad. he was in italy last weekend and there's room as he might be going to berlin this weekend, is that that's the only way he can get some respite from the protesters and the anger. he faces out in the streets here in israel. but there's something else as well. the saudi iran resumption of diplomatic ties. he opposition or using that to attack pres, our prime minister benjamin netanyahu saying this was a failure of diplomacy on his part. and that this shows that israel is isolated in

the world because the, the makeup of this current, israeli government, whatever the truth of that it is being used to attack the prime minister and his coalition. but the prime minister is a tough guy, and he has this majority, like i say, of seats in parliament. so if he wants to pass this bill, he will try every trick in the book to make sure it will pass whether it passes in the form he once that's now up for discussion. emron con, out is era. the inside story. ah, lots to discuss. let's bring in our guests for today's program, from television, we're joined by gideon, levy porter and columnist, audits newspaper in haifa, sally albert podcast host and member of the leadership at standing together the largest jewish arab grassroots movement in israel and in jerusalem is gail hoffman, executive director of honest reporting,

which combats what it sees as anti israel bias and international media. gillis, the former chief, political correspondent at the jerusalem post will come to you all. gideon, let stuff with you. well known as is where the politicians polyphony says that the protest, i'm not just about judicial reform, it's about identity. it's about what israel is. it's a battle for the soul of the country as a democracy. is she right? it or it is, as we heard from one of the protest us in the set up. there netanyahu becoming a dictator. disney's right. and in the same time that the nail is in, don't yet become into the theater. but then you are linked to me for a meeting there. i'm framework. we are dealing who's a very impressive wave of protest. i'm t dictatorship pro democracy in an bothered state. let's remember this before we get into the subject. by the end of the day,

it's about democracy to the juice. owing to the jewels and the teasing, pressing the destruction it is follow for. i don't believe a supporting been encouraging and even being excited about it. but we should know for going for a moment or this is happening when a party is still here and has no intention to go in this even not to mention in this protest. now back to question. yes, it is about the identity, the ident, each of the lease of this country, that entity then leads of this country, the societies toner and under the cover or a legal argument. there is much more under the service, but in the same time i wouldn't say that the neo is the state. oh, he's about to become a dictator. but he's bearing tours which might serve you one day to become one. sorry,

i saw you nodding in agreement that you may want to comment on what get in was was saying organizers claimed that the latest protests were the biggest in israeli history. there clearly many people opposed to the government's judicial reform plans, but are they in the majority in israeli society? is there a silent majority who are actually in favor of what the government is planning to do? i'm not sure. i disagree with the good the own. i do, i think that the current and protest the way that it was led and the reason why it's so successful. and so loud is because it's leaders are the ones who are fighting it for their and for their privileges in many ways and for their identity. and for how they see, you know, they have a very strong ownership over is read it because if we see who these people are, they are, you know, middle class plus veterans. asking ozzy from the center live

a very strong sense of ownership over over a, you know, israel as, as a jewish state. um, so i don't think i, i disagree with him. i do think that the protests as they are right now, you know, are, are becoming wider in coalition. we are seeing more and more protests that are getting really large in the peripheries with a more diverse ed and participation. and we are seeing some very, very little at participation of palestinians as citizens of israel. however, it is becoming a more visible am. and obviously i do think that we have is seen some kind of shift, at least in, in some parts of the protests that are talking about the connection between a, you know, or the dissonance, let's say, between protecting the democracy that israeli democracy at m. and instead of

that, really talking about redefining a democracy and what that means really at which is ending it, occupation and redefining that demarco that the democracy in the supreme court in a way that doesn't maintain an apartheid system. and so i don't disagree with that with the get the on. i do think there is a, a positive shift to not sufficient, but definitely a positive gail hoffman opposition. lee. the yale a pied says the government's focused only on crushing israeli democracy. and why does the government insist that these reforms are necessary? perhaps you could explain it to us to quote rain in the unchecked an unbalanced powers of, of judges. do judges in israel have too much power? are they making decisions that go against the national interest? ok. so 1st of all, my caveat is that i'm not here to defend or justify or take the side of these

really government and its policies. i can explain them and put them into context throughout the years of the supreme court of israel, there have been very few minorities represented in part because of the way the judges are chosen. they're chosen by a selection committee in which the judges and their allies in the bar association had a majority to choose their own successors. and to many of them were white. secular left wing people, mostly men, choosing more white, secular, left wing people. and one of the aims of the people who support these changes is to make the supreme court more diverse to have the members of kinessa choose them. whether the coalition really right wing or left wing at the time and have it better reflect that the people of israel who are, are among the most diverse people in the entire world. there is no attempt to involve whether this would help arabs or not help arabs. that's not an issue that's

being discussed. unlike what my counterpart said. and they do believe that will strengthen democracy and the rule of law. if instead of having elected officials that are supreme court judges make decisions, that the people will have more of a say. and what the protests have proven is that israeli democracy is actually very strong after having 5 elections in 3 and a half years. so we're about personality politics about nathan. yeah. here you have people taking to the streets because they care about the future of israeli democracy. and we'll see if compromises will be made. their meeting is taking place right now, and hopefully they can rain in the consensus on what can still be changed to satisfy all sides. get in how, how much of this has to do with, with religion is fairly right. she. she noted that this perhaps is a battle between the classes, perhaps in the, in israel, to what extent does your background, your economic circumstances and how religious you are decide where you stand on

this issue. when the agenda would be the 2nd though, the so the identification before the seats will be your ethnic identification. and then that being a part of a lead or being from the lower classes, being jewish or not jewish, and only then come religion. yes, there is a division, according to religion, namely between the sexual and their religious. the way, why is this sanction sees the liberty you have seen that too much is in both of them in terms of religion. israelis by far the most religious country in the western world. so many things that people come from that which i can't believe that they see from not having a public transportation on southern thing to think that i cannot marry my

years when you should girlfriend. it is right because she's in the jewish things, which i heard in any secular democracy. but this is not the front of the argument right now. as i say, the main thing is now we didn't mentioned the agents on it than yo as, as, as something which motivates many of the book. this does even though they won't say, but that the neo became the most hated. and the most beloved is really politician ever i think. and those who hate him are ready to anything to get rid of him. that's, that's in the front of the struggle and then cause they have the legal question. are those legislations are really dangerous in the eyes of the protest those and by the end of the day they won't, they are desiring not to lose their dominance. it's about the dominance of their skin as the elite in this country. when this supreme court was almost that it asked

outpost in which their sch can i see and then a 100 and then dominated their fight, think now not to lose the last the last outpost. this talk a little about netanyahu and, and his motives here fairly. he came back to power one on trial for corruption formed an alliance with an extreme ultra nationalist group who a previously on the, on the fringes of politics. is all of this, perhaps a calculated attempt by him to avoid the consequences of his trial. does he genuine believe, genuinely believing in what he's doing? is it right or? or is this a political back file? i believe it's the latter. it, to be honest. i don't think it even anthony a who a has that and it really wanted you know, the plans to be exactly the way they are. i don't think that he would have contacted them the way they are

a right now and would have avoided and at the same resistance and his opposition to strong opposition, which is, you know, from the people what we are saying that it's obviously led by the elite but let's be honest, this is a very, very powerful, loud he, corey opposition. anees rarely government one that we haven't seen before. so i do think that you're not giving me nothing. i would have avoided that. and should he had the option? i don't think it has to do with his a court as much with his trial and i do think there would have, he would have found other ways that there are many experts that would have found other ways to add to for him to avoid a trial it's definitely a back fire in many ways and, and i do think that if it's something he is in a little bit of a pickle, i would say, absolutely. go, would you, would you agree with that?

the government, pressing ahead with the plan, in spite of these, these protests can it survive. will this ultimately lead to the collapse of the coalition? how long before will be rising? netanyahu's political obituaries? again, bearing in mind that it was that it was quick to do so. the last time i covered politics for 24 years for the jerusalem post. and i wrote and now was a bit wary many, many times and it was proven wrong. right now, it's really his justice minister that's pushing this forward. these are ideological issues that he uribe been as cared about for a very long time. and nathan, ya perhaps initially empowered him to do it and perhaps revenge against the legal establishment that was prosecuting him. was part of that motivation, but now it's taken the life of its own and it's now as himself been prevented from dealing with it by the attorney general. will see right now there's pressure on moderate elements within the liquid party. if you have 4 or 5 members of connected

inside that we could who say this has gone too far, then perhaps that wouldn't pass into law. but i still think that there's going to be a compromise that what's past so far. early preliminary readings that don't pass it into law, there is still a 3 weeks before the nasa leaves on its pass over recess. and this is crunch time and that's why the president has gotten into high gear in putting forth his own proposal. that presumably would be what would be passed in the kinetic gideon is israel's democracy, broken with a succession of fragile coalitions propped up by a myriad of smaller, sometimes extreme parties to israel as entire system of democracy. do you think need, i know the whole is to insist that the and above that state cannot be

a democracy. is fe bids rulers over 5000000 people who has no rights whatsoever. no citizenship, nothing can only then define this democracy. how can recording the democracy? i mean, really a, this semester, a must companies and coding. he is running a democracy as own as the occupation was temporary. you hold coating the democracy, was a military occupation, but the 55 years. what about that 5000000 people who has no rights, then we don't count them. we don't see them there in boston of israel to date of great into israel. and i really, really, you'll still have any discussion about a, the democracy in israel, like i want to accept the discussion in south africa about the democratic procedures among the whites. this is really outrageous. having said these, i still think that these were for in jewish citizens, isn't democracy,

the risks out there, the correct there, but i'm not a to be say, a proclivity descriptions that is really turning into, i'm gary term. he'll go for be even russia no 2 years. we are on this bus, but not yet. okay. sally, would you agree with her serious is as political crisis for i would like to israel . yeah. please. and you know, even as a phyllis indian activists are here in israel and not because i disagree with the, you know, conceptually, obviously, i obviously agree with that. with gideon about said the fact that we can't call israel a democracy. but there is definitely democratic practices with then a, you know, the 67 lines and the inside of israel in many ways limited for non jewish citizens, but definitely less limited for it for jewish citizens. and i do think it's also

less limited to many other marginalized groups, if we talk about of to be to q, right? if we talk about women, i do think there is a, it's, it's a little bit dangerous to come and, and the condition a, the protests right now add to or condition their legitimacy to talking about the occupation. we are obviously doing it all if we're putting all of our efforts into impacting the messaging and impacting a, the kind of a resistance that we want to see from inside. we do think it's an opportunity to build a new political current that can really re imagine a democracy and can challenge the current a democracy. and the way is the israeli jewish israeli public perceive it perceives it. i do think it's dangerous to completely dismiss it and talk about the dangerous and the threats of the currents overhauled on that. yes, limited and very flawed. a democracy that's within the thread. do it on saudi arabia's. when i signed an agreement to mobilize to florida ties on on friday,

that was a hammer blow. adrian, i need to respond to what they would agree or remove ok. released are pleased to go . absolutely. so. so 1st of all, you've to bring in palestinian politics into this, the cost and authority that controls those millions of people has some $1000.00 records in the $990.00. they haven't had an election since january 2005 because of the weakness of their own democracy. it has nothing to do with israel. and that's what's had caused the boss administration to lose power in cities in the west bank where they're supposed to be doing the police thing. and because of that, or israel had no choice but to go in, in order to arrest, want the terrorists it has to do with the weakness on the palestinian side. and on these railey side, israel is a democracy. it's not apartheid comparisons to apartheid or offensive to the south . african black people are endorsed it. they wish they could have had black on their supreme court. if we have arab judges in israel convicted israeli president

and prime minister, it's as far away from a part time. ok. okay. go. i know. i know the both gideon and sally shaking their heads, disagree, disagreeing with you ever were out of we're almost out of time and that's not the issue that we're discussing here. go, how serious is this political crisis has it? as israel faced a political crisis of this magnitude before, is it the biggest threat to israel since its foundation? so we have had many crises in israel politically, in the period of the oslo accords, in the withdrawal from gaza. back in the 1950s when israel received reparations from germany after the holocaust in israel managed to make it through all those. and as you point out, there are distractions. and because of the fight being internal, that's led to international issues like the fight against preventing the nuclear was ation of iran falling by the wayside. and that is definitely something that

potential security in jeopardy in the future. same question to you than, than gideon. i mentioned this, the round saudi arabia deal to normalized diplomatic ties, which must have been a hammer blow for the prime minister. some of israel, staunchest allies don't particularly like it's current government at the moment, would prefer to keep it at arm's length with problems mounting at home and abroad. how house out just how serious is this crisis? it is serious, but they as get a say the not the 1st serious crisis. again, they didn't mention the big crisis after the 73 war when the feeling cause that we are about to, to college. i, as i say, i don't see in those dramatic or own posing k colors,

but there is these a great challenge. it's my lean into a terrible legal and social crisis, but in my own so. so it's not the reverse of, but we should not know the my good going. oh no, but you know, few weeks of brought this are not changing the story. they must me some more steps to be followed. and then we will see, is it really a crack in the, in the basic of is read or is it one of those crises that seem so terrible when they had been? and then something happens and they are almost forgotten, leaving very, very few side. so it's too early to judge ok that i'm afraid we must and our discussion, we're out of time. many thanks. indeed, gideon levy, sally abbot and gill hoffman. thank you for watching. don't forget you can see it again. the program again at any time by going to the website at al jazeera dot com

for further discussion. john is still our facebook page that's at facebook dot com forward slash ha inside story. and you can join the conversation on twitter handle at a j inside story from me, adrian finnegan and the team here though. hi, thanks for watching. we'll see you again. i thought, ah ah, along with whatever has been done before, it can be done even better. as long as a human being is doing it, you can do it. no matter how possibly it looks it's you to putting the effort to put in the lock and you will have to be patient with me. i am the captain,

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